CANNAS TIP ON HIGHER YIELDS!!!!!!

[glow]

Very interesting stuff you mention in your posts, I like real evidence hehe

What do you think about DJM Coco tree's? He root bounds the plants to 5gal 100% coir and dtw several times a day!

I'm interested in your opinion about that, because for him its working out! And I'm in the veg state of my first complete coco run and I don't want to fuck up the pot size from the start.

I haven't looked at DJM's growing method. Raviv and Leith though sum it up well in that as long as nutrients are supplied at high enough levels the limiting factors may only be P and Ca. Although other issues may present. I also tend to like to see things tested scientifically (i.e. side by side trials and tissue analysis - this is rare on forums). Ultimately plants can be root bound towards the end even in larger pots and coir contains root stimulants as path of the course so even in larger pots large healthy plants tend to get root bound by the end of the cycle.

 

[Lesterburnum]

Very nice info glow. Thanks! I've always run straight canna coco. Been thinking of trying the chow mix. May try and perlite/coco mix side by side.
Thanks again glow for sharing.

 

[berad4guvna]

CHOW

CHOW

Ya, I'm all about the chow mix. Jackmayoffer killed killed killed it with those chow mix runs.

YO @ GLOW can you help a brother out with the question I asked ^^^ LOL...

Peace

Very nice info glow. Thanks! I've always run straight canna coco. Been thinking of trying the chow mix. May try and perlite/coco mix side by side.
Thanks again glow for sharing.

 

[glow]

Ya, I'm all about the chow mix. Jackmayoffer killed killed killed it with those chow mix runs.

YO @ GLOW can you help a brother out with the question I asked ^^^ LOL...

Peace

Sorry missed that - are you lookin g for base fertilizers to mix your own or premixed fertilizers to add to water?

 

[glow]

Inspired Reading

Inspired Reading

I should thank Bonecarver_OG for starting this thread. I've been researching and writing about substrate science for a while now (the stuff of nightmares BTW - Daltons theory, hydraulic conductivity, gas exchange characteristics, media matrix aghhhhh!) ---- I'll make this info available through my site when I'm done.... Anyway this whole Canna BS gave me a great laugh and I've added this....

Actually, as a bit of a story, some 15 years ago I wrote about growing in a coir perlite mix. When Integral Hydroponics was made available to indoor and other growers through the Australian retail hydroponics sector an Australian supplier of coir substrate quickly started circulating information that I had got it wrong and that coir should never be mixed with perlite. This same company, at that time (and for years after), recommended that straight coir should be irrigated with multiples of smaller feeds over the course of the day. 15 years on, and reams of coir based research later, numerous studies now show the benefits of mixing coir with perlite. The reason being, of course, is the addition of perlite to coir increases the air content and reduces WHC. What’s perhaps more notable is, in recent times, this same company came out with (essentially admitting they had got it wrong and for years had been misinforming growers re the best irrigation strategy for straight coir – no added perlite) that their coir performed best under one single irrigation event per day (perhaps two for larger plants). The key, they claimed, was to allow the coir to dry out which, according to them, results in 3% more air in their coir which leads to yield improvements of, according to them, 6-10%. In essence, they might as well have come out and told growers that based on information they had been providing them with re irrigating coir with multiples of small feeds, that their advice for over a decade had been costing consumers 6-10% in yield (this equates to huge losses!).

Cheers guys and gals Glow

 

[Meison]

Good call him and glow are great sources IMO asking is the first step.lol assuming is the wrong direction. My input would be depending in how big you're Finnishing is a huge part. I'm using little 4inch pots so I only have to veg for a few weeks then straight into flower and multi waterings daily. First time doing multi water. I treated coco like soil last time around

Hey thanks for replying, I'm looking to end with plants giving me 150gr+ each minimum! That would be the best. The idea is to have 5-6 plants and produce a solid 1gpw.

The plan is to veg the clones while the big ones flower, avoiding to stop the flowering tent from a perpetual grow! But I have very few space to veg, so I will probably veg in the flower tent for an extra 2 weeks then flip!

I haven't looked at DJM's growing method. Raviv and Leith though sum it up well in that as long as nutrients are supplied at high enough levels the limiting factors may only be P and Ca. Although other issues may present. I also tend to like to see things tested scientifically (i.e. side by side trials and tissue analysis - this is rare on forums). Ultimately plants can be root bound towards the end even in larger pots and coir contains root stimulants as path of the course so even in larger pots large healthy plants tend to get root bound by the end of the cycle.

Thanks for replying glow, I read what you posted, and I asked because his grow doesn't show any P or CA def, he's method is based on the root bound and multiple feeds!

Here's a link to his grow, maybe if you have some time please give it a glance and post back with your opinion!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=300255

Cheers

 

[Dready_jake]

Hey thanks for replying, I'm looking to end with plants giving me 150gr+ each minimum! That would be the best. The idea is to have 5-6 plants and produce a solid 1gpw.

The plan is to veg the clones while the big ones flower, avoiding to stop the flowering tent from a perpetual grow! But I have very few space to veg, so I will probably veg in the flower tent for an extra 2 weeks then flip!


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=300255

Cheers

Honestly if you have the same head room as DJM I'd go with that size and kinda follow his lead. If not scale them down. If you have 2/3rds the headroom somewhere around 2/3rds the size pot would be rational. Then after one run bust it open and compare all results see if you want to size up or down! I love loving at my root balls in the end. Tells you what you did wrong to some extent.

 

[glow]

Hey thanks for replying, I'm looking to end with plants giving me 150gr+ each minimum! That would be the best. The idea is to have 5-6 plants and produce a solid 1gpw.

The plan is to veg the clones while the big ones flower, avoiding to stop the flowering tent from a perpetual grow! But I have very few space to veg, so I will probably veg in the flower tent for an extra 2 weeks then flip!



Thanks for replying glow, I read what you posted, and I asked because his grow doesn't show any P or CA def, he's method is based on the root bound and multiple feeds!

Here's a link to his grow, maybe if you have some time please give it a glance and post back with your opinion!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?threadid=300255

Cheers

Plants will reduce growth and yield long before a deficiency shows (hidden hunger range) which brings us back to why I want to see side to sides and tissue analysis. Will def have a look at the thread - cheers

 

[berad4guvna]

GLOW can you see my posts?

GLOW can you see my posts?

Plants will reduce growth and yield long before a deficiency shows (hidden hunger range) which brings us back to why I want to see side to sides and tissue analysis. Will def have a look at the thread - cheers

Are my posts visible LOL? GLOW I like all the informative information on your site! I want to buy a powder based nutrient suitable for chow mix. Can you recommend one or please let me know a release date on Manic Botanic products???????????????

Thanks

 

[MrBelvedere]

Thanks for pointing this out. We have witnessed sooooo many grows where misinformed people are growing with a "tiny particulate" medium of "pure coir" or "pure dirt" or "pure peat" or "pure soil". Sometimes things go "ok" for awhile under perfect watering schedules.

But when something goes wrong the problem is difficult to fix because the fine sawdust grade size particles "clump" and have TERRIBLE AERATION AND TERRIBLE DRAINAGE! Inevitably when a problem happens there is no way to fix it QUICKLY because the medium has bricked.

When using very small particle sizes the medium simply cannot breathe, there is no aeration, and minimal drainage. It is effectively a brickball of roots that is difficult to penetrate.

Simply adding 50% perlite at Day 1 will prevent so many common issues- it's cheap insurance! The plant will grow well with more frequent fertigation cycles. It is soooo much easier to fix a mistake when the medium drains well and has aeration. It is just best practice to use a lot of perlite when you have plenty of water on hand and can fertigate often. It is not rocket science.... just plain old common sense.

It is a crime that the coir companies claim to use it at 100% so they can increase sales- risking yield and creating a overly wet substrate that is a welcome mat for bad fungi, bugs, pathogens, etc. if somebody transplants and oops forgot to rinse new coco they can survive IF they mixed 50/50 with perlite- because they can fill the container with a garden hose and all the salts will QUICKLY drain out the bottom. Oops underfed and want faster results? Feed it immediately at stronger dose and the feed is immediately available to the roots because the medium is permeable when perlite is in the mix.

Thanks again...

And yet all the research shows us that high fertigation frequency produces higher yields (where the air to water ratio in the substrate is ideal) due to maintaining a better nutrient status in the root zone. I.e. several studies have shown that high fertigation frequency results in better nutrient status in the rootzone. Studies have demonstrated that increased fertigation frequency significantly increased plant yield, especially at low nutrient concentrations.

Studies have shown that high fertigation frequency maintains higher dissolved nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium concentration in the substrate, by shortening the period during which nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium retention takes place. Phosphorus (P) nutrient status is particularly improved under high fertigation frequency. Studies have shown that yield improvement as a result of high fertigation frequency is primarily related to the enhanced nutrient uptake of P. Thus, high fertigation frequency can serve as an efficient means of enhancing crop yield by improving the uptake by plants of less mobile nutrients. This is particularly true during periods of the most vigorous growth where the plants have high nutrient demand.... (See Raviv and Leith and Silber, A. 2008. High frequency irrigations as means for enhancement of nutrient use efficiency: Soilless grown bell pepper as a model plant Acta Horticulturae 779. ---- loads of others also)

So what Canna is really finding is that their coir has high water holding capacity and inadequate air capacity - therefore, they need to allow the media to dry to facilitate adequate root zone oxygen... That is even the best nutrient regime is worthless if inadequate oxygen (or water) is available to the roots. Nothing new there.... I.e.

(Quote)

“Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.”

(End Quote)

(see Awang, Yahya and Shaharom, Anieza Shazmi and Mohamad, Rosli and Selamat, Ahmad (2009) Chemical and physical characteristics of cocopeat-based media mixtures and their effects on the growth and development of celosia cristata. American Journal of Agricultural and Biological Sciences, 4 (1). pp. 63-71. ISSN 1557-4989 and others)

So, for example, where oxygen is inadequate phosphorus (P) uptake can be reduced by as much as 50%. Conversely, plants can take up only those nutrients that are dissolved in the soil solution. The term ‘soil solution’ refers to the film moisture in soil together with its dissolved substances (e.g. nutrient ions). Therefore, if water levels are inadequate nutrient availability is inadequate. However, as soil moisture begins to become excessive, while nutrients are available in adequate quantities, excess water excludes the needed oxygen from the soil and nutrient uptake begins to suffer due to the lack of oxygen.

Basically, if you were to improve the air filled porosity of the Canna Coco by adding perlite you could then irrigate more frequently and reduce the time that nutrient retention and depletion took place. Canna's information is flawed on this basis as what they are talking about is optimal water requirements in a substrate that has high water capacity and inadequate air capacity to cater for more feeds. Go well Glow

 

[stoned40yrs]

Thanks for pointing this out. We have witnessed sooooo many grows where misinformed people are growing with a "tiny particulate" medium of "pure coir" or "pure dirt" or "pure peat" or "pure soil". Sometimes things go "ok" for awhile under perfect watering schedules.

But when something goes wrong the problem is difficult to fix because the fine sawdust grade size particles "clump" and have TERRIBLE AERATION AND TERRIBLE DRAINAGE! Inevitably when a problem happens there is no way to fix it QUICKLY because the medium has bricked.

When using very small particle sizes the medium simply cannot breathe, there is no aeration, and minimal drainage. It is effectively a brickball of roots that is difficult to penetrate.

Simply adding 50% perlite at Day 1 will prevent so many common issues- it's cheap insurance! The plant will grow well with more frequent fertigation cycles. It is soooo much easier to fix a mistake when the medium drains well and has aeration. It is just best practice to use a lot of perlite when you have plenty of water on hand and can fertigate often. It is not rocket science.... just plain old common sense.

It is a crime that the coir companies claim to use it at 100% so they can increase sales- risking yield and creating a overly wet substrate that is a welcome mat for bad fungi, bugs, pathogens, etc. if somebody transplants and oops forgot to rinse new coco they can survive IF they mixed 50/50 with perlite- because they can fill the container with a garden hose and all the salts will QUICKLY drain out the bottom. Oops underfed and want faster results? Feed it immediately at stronger dose and the feed is immediately available to the roots because the medium is permeable when perlite is in the mix.

Thanks again...

Sounds like you and glow both need to go read DJMs grow thread and see what he does in 100% pure coco. Then show me your threads where you do better than him with your coco/perlite mix. Till then it's 100% pure coco for me and most guys on here. Here's the thread: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=300255

 

[Meison]

Sounds like you and glow both need to go read DJMs grow thread and see what he does in 100% pure coco. Then show me your threads where you do better than him with your coco/perlite mix. Till then it's 100% pure coco for me and most guys on here. Here's the thread: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=300255

This guy knows how to handle himself in coco, and DJM, well after hearing and reading about rockwool tree's then seeing him pull coco tree's in 100% coir made me curious. That's why I ask stuff, people has to show me results, their OWN results..

 

[stoned40yrs]

This guy knows how to handle himself in coco, and DJM, well after hearing and reading about rockwool tree's then seeing him pull coco tree's in 100% coir made me curious. That's why I ask stuff, people has to show me results, their OWN results..

I'm not opposed to adding perlite, I just don't think it will be a huge improvement and I hate it from using the nasty stuff in soil. Some shit don't add up. Saying Canna uses straight coco to sell more doesn't sound right. Adding some cheap perlite that they wouldn't have to ship in from half way around the world like coco would INCREASE their profits. Coco is the cocaine, perlite is a cut. How the hell am I supposed to believe they only sell 100% coco so they can sell more of it.

 

[glow]

I'm not opposed to adding perlite, I just don't think it will be a huge improvement and I hate it from using the nasty stuff in soil. Some shit don't add up. Saying Canna uses straight coco to sell more doesn't sound right. Adding some cheap perlite that they wouldn't have to ship in from half way around the world like coco would INCREASE their profits. Coco is the cocaine, perlite is a cut. How the hell am I supposed to believe they only sell 100% coco so they can sell more of it.

Nothing intelligent can be added to that

 

[glow]

Are my posts visible LOL? GLOW I like all the informative information on your site! I want to buy a powder based nutrient suitable for chow mix. Can you recommend one or please let me know a release date on Manic Botanic products???????????????

Thanks

Nope but clearly mine are because if you read my posts you will find I responded. BTW this isn't the forum to be shilling wares (sadly many manufacturers on IC Mag who hide behind pseudonyms don't feel the same way) so if you want to hit me at [email protected] I can perhaps advise you.

 

[glow]

Thanks for pointing this out. We have witnessed sooooo many grows where misinformed people are growing with a "tiny particulate" medium of "pure coir" or "pure dirt" or "pure peat" or "pure soil". Sometimes things go "ok" for awhile under perfect watering schedules.

But when something goes wrong the problem is difficult to fix because the fine sawdust grade size particles "clump" and have TERRIBLE AERATION AND TERRIBLE DRAINAGE! Inevitably when a problem happens there is no way to fix it QUICKLY because the medium has bricked.

When using very small particle sizes the medium simply cannot breathe, there is no aeration, and minimal drainage. It is effectively a brickball of roots that is difficult to penetrate.

Simply adding 50% perlite at Day 1 will prevent so many common issues- it's cheap insurance! The plant will grow well with more frequent fertigation cycles. It is soooo much easier to fix a mistake when the medium drains well and has aeration. It is just best practice to use a lot of perlite when you have plenty of water on hand and can fertigate often. It is not rocket science.... just plain old common sense.

It is a crime that the coir companies claim to use it at 100% so they can increase sales- risking yield and creating a overly wet substrate that is a welcome mat for bad fungi, bugs, pathogens, etc. if somebody transplants and oops forgot to rinse new coco they can survive IF they mixed 50/50 with perlite- because they can fill the container with a garden hose and all the salts will QUICKLY drain out the bottom. Oops underfed and want faster results? Feed it immediately at stronger dose and the feed is immediately available to the roots because the medium is permeable when perlite is in the mix.

Thanks again...

Well said... They've actually found that in small particle peat much like many soils that it is impossible to get the air water relationship right. I.e. when the moisture content is ideal, the aeration tends to be inadequate, and when the aeration is ideal then moisture tends to be problematic...

“Cocopeat is considered as a good growing media component with acceptable pH, electrical conductivity and other chemical attributes. But it has been recognized to have high water holding capacity which causes poor air–water relationship, leading to low aeration within the medium, thus affecting the oxygen diffusion to the roots.” (see Awang, Yahya and Shaharom, Anieza Shazmi and Mohamad, Rosli and Selamat, Ahmad (2009) Chemical and physical characteristics of cocopeat-based media mixtures and their effects on the growth and development of celosia cristata. American Journal of Agricultural and Biological Sciences, 4 (1). pp. 63-71. ISSN 1557-4989)

Perlite, on the other hand, has high air filled porosity and low water holding capacity. By adding perlite to coir we increase air and decrease water holding capacity. The result is a substrate that drains well and promotes both adequate levels of available water and oxygen under various irrigation strategies. I.e. a combination of coir and perlite tends to create a very user friendly, versatile medium which maintains good water and air status under both higher and lower irrigation frequency.

Its actually pretty simple shit - ideally a versatile and user friendly hydroponic substrate should have high AFP, moderate WHC and drain easily/well/quickly. A hydroponic substrate shouldn't have high water holding and comparatively far lower AFP and drain very slowly (e.g. small particle size distribution coir).

 

[berad4guvna]

sorry

sorry

Nope but clearly mine are because if you read my posts you will find I responded. BTW this isn't the forum to be shilling wares (sadly many manufacturers on IC Mag who hide behind pseudonyms don't feel the same way) so if you want to hit me at [email protected] I can perhaps advise you.

Sorry, I missed your response. Im not sure about shilling anything. I don't have anything to sell, or market if that's what you mean. I hit you up in this thread because me and friend have been trying to reach out to you on your site for a few months.

Again, thanks and I will email you my friend.


Peace

 

[glow]

Sorry, I missed your response. Im not sure about shilling anything. I don't have anything to sell, or market if that's what you mean. I hit you up in this thread because me and friend have been trying to reach out to you on your site for a few months.

Again, thanks and I will email you my friend.


Peace

No I was referring to me when I said that ---- must be a forum thing. Everyone takes shit as an attack because I guess so much attacking goes on lol...

 

[Lesterburnum]

Yeah jack got me onto a couple things that definitely helped. I guess I shouldn't have waited so long. Haha old dog is hard to new tricks.
But so glad.
Now hearing glow spit some knowledge, makes a connection to me. And hearing about mixes with this and that.
I tried coir chips to horrible failure. They seemed to hold too too much water. Like glow pointed out is per standard. I guess.
So chow it is. Thanks !

 

[whadeezlrg]

I've literally ALWAYS had sub-par results when using coco cut with perlite...sometimes the numbers can blind us from what really should be doing all the talking for us, the results.