African Strains

[OregonBorn]

Africa is an awfully big place to generalize strains. And Phylos Bio? I doubt the vast majority of strains submitted to them is what they are claimed to be. Some of the strains there are all over the map with the same names. And if as you say these fellows from Spain shipped similar seeds from SA as different strains, they would wind up in Phylos as different strain names, with similar genes. I bet a lot of seed companies have also done that. All of these genetic tests have suspect baseline genetics in my opinion, and sources that are also suspect.

As for risk in collecting seeds, Franco is an example of that. I believe that he died of malaria? Never mind the war lords, terrorist groups and violence in many parts of Africa. I have friends here that are from SA, and they say it is a very violent place as well.

 

[Water-]

SOA strains are not on Phylos as far as I know.

The African Seeds Ethiopian that Ace has reproduced shows a direct relationship to a South African collected a longtime ago by Mel Frank.
So yea I agree that SOA is not the only company to have done this,( or maybe someone had brought south african seeds to ethiopia?)
but I still see what I think are obvious clusters among the landraces on the phylos galaxy.

In relation to the distance shown between hybrid strains, phylos makes it appear if most of the landrace tropical strains are actually pretty closely related and stemming from an Indian origin.
It will be nice when they get enough samples to paint a clearer picture of whats what.

 

[yesum]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=425552&stc=1&d=1503810714

I can see why this strain has been around so long. Ethiopian Highland. Good for depression or anxiety. Not party weed so much but more contemplative.

 

[danlilker]

@yesum: i like this pic very much! is it something you grew yourself? or .... ?
would there be any chance of getting some seeds from you or whomever has them?
I'm more than willing and happy to buy them if you tell me they (the seeds) come directly from Ethipia (i.e. you or some1 else has been to ethiopia and has come back with seeds)

Cheers!

 

[yesum]

@danlilker Those are buds from my plant. The seeds were from ACE. I understand this is the real Ethiopian Highland and pure. The buzz is unique and worth adding to a sativa lovers collection imo.

 

[OregonBorn]

SOA strains are not on Phylos as far as I know.

The African Seeds Ethiopian that Ace has reproduced shows a direct relationship to a South African collected a longtime ago by Mel Frank.
So yea I agree that SOA is not the only company to have done this,( or maybe someone had brought south african seeds to ethiopia?)
but I still see what I think are obvious clusters among the landraces on the phylos galaxy.

In relation to the distance shown between hybrid strains, phylos makes it appear if most of the landrace tropical strains are actually pretty closely related and stemming from an Indian origin.
It will be nice when they get enough samples to paint a clearer picture of whats what.

Mel Frank did not collect the strains in SA (at least the Durban ones), Ed Rosenthal did, and from Amsterdam, not South Africa. There is an essay on it posted on Wiki Leaf and an update posted by Mel there a few months ago. Ed brought DP land race seeds back to the states from Holland, gave them to Mel, he worked them here, and then Mel (mistakenly) sent the lesser quality "B" strain to Holland where it was reworked by Sam the Skunkman. That according to Mel Frank himself.

As for the African-Indian connection, and Mexican-Indian connection, that stems from about 1500. Hemp was critical in making sail cloth and rope used in global shipping, and hence the Spanish and Portuguese took and grew hemp in all the colonial areas of the globe. Seemingly the main source of hemp was India which was controlled by Portugal, as was Africa where it spread rapidly starting about 1500. The Spanish recorded their hemp as being "Manila hemp" at that time, but it seems that hemp in the Philippines was originally sourced from India as well, as genetic testing of the Mexican land races is turning up a close match to Indian strains, like the African strains. If you look at the trade routes of the early 16th century, it is pretty obvious how Indian strains migrated around the globe. From India west to Africa by the Portuguese, and India via Manila east to Mexico by the Spanish. However, Colombian land race strains seem to be more closely related to SE Asian and Thailand strains, and not Indian ones. So there are gaps and exceptions.

 

[Criollo]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/attachment.php?attachmentid=425552&stc=1&d=1503810714

I can see why this strain has been around so long. Ethiopian Highland. Good for depression or anxiety. Not party weed so much but more contemplative.

Thx for the info yesum, may be i give him one try next seasons. Was growed in indoor or outdoor?

 

[yesum]

^^ Indoor under 10,000 K fluorescent 9/15 light schedule. I pulled it at 9 weeks but it had another week to go at least. Most will run them at 13 or 14 weeks but they do not use my lights or schedule.

 

[Water-]

Mel Frank did not collect the strains in SA (at least the Durban ones), Ed Rosenthal did, and from Amsterdam, not South Africa. There is an essay on it posted on Wiki Leaf and an update posted by Mel there a few months ago. Ed brought DP land race seeds back to the states from Holland, gave them to Mel, he worked them here, and then Mel (mistakenly) sent the lesser quality "B" strain to Holland where it was reworked by Sam the Skunkman. That according to Mel Frank himself.

As for the African-Indian connection, and Mexican-Indian connection, that stems from about 1500. Hemp was critical in making sail cloth and rope used in global shipping, and hence the Spanish and Portuguese took and grew hemp in all the colonial areas of the globe. Seemingly the main source of hemp was India which was controlled by Portugal, as was Africa where it spread rapidly starting about 1500. The Spanish recorded their hemp as being "Manila hemp" at that time, but it seems that hemp in the Philippines was originally sourced from India as well, as genetic testing of the Mexican land races is turning up a close match to Indian strains, like the African strains. If you look at the trade routes of the early 16th century, it is pretty obvious how Indian strains migrated around the globe. From India west to Africa by the Portuguese, and India via Manila east to Mexico by the Spanish. However, Colombian land race strains seem to be more closely related to SE Asian and Thailand strains, and not Indian ones. So there are gaps and exceptions.

it was Indian ganja that we are talking about not hemp.

If the landrace strains that are on Phylos had their last common ancestor 500 years ago I think that you would see a lot greater genetic variation that what the Galaxy is showing.
They appear close together and it points to a more recent common ancestor and that they where likely spread to Africa during British empire.
Im sure cannabis has been in Africa for thousands of years but the samples on Phylos where probably spread in the 19th century.

there are a number of strains on Phylos listed with Mel Franks name.
I never mentioned durban or dp.

aloha

 

[mexcurandero420]

As for the African-Indian connection, and Mexican-Indian connection, that stems from about 1500. Hemp was critical in making sail cloth and rope used in global shipping, and hence the Spanish and Portuguese took and grew hemp in all the colonial areas of the globe. Seemingly the main source of hemp was India which was controlled by Portugal, as was Africa where it spread rapidly starting about 1500. The Spanish recorded their hemp as being "Manila hemp" at that time, but it seems that hemp in the Philippines was originally sourced from India as well, as genetic testing of the Mexican land races is turning up a close match to Indian strains, like the African strains. If you look at the trade routes of the early 16th century, it is pretty obvious how Indian strains migrated around the globe. From India west to Africa by the Portuguese, and India via Manila east to Mexico by the Spanish. However, Colombian land race strains seem to be more closely related to SE Asian and Thailand strains, and not Indian ones. So there are gaps and exceptions.

The only place in South-America which is good for growing hemp is Chili, the other countries did not bring the quality the Spanish wanted.Colombian varieties are not originated from Spanish hemp, but were much brought to the country for medical research by American pharmaceutical companies, the same for Mexico and don't forget the BOEL guys.

 

[danlilker]

@yesum: do you know where ACE is from? i mean what nationality? and where ar they based? Could you describe the pattern of growth of the ethipian and its effects? does it require a lot of attention/car? does it like quite a bit of nutes or....? cheers Dan

 

[OregonBorn]

it was Indian ganja that we are talking about not hemp.

If the landrace strains that are on Phylos had their last common ancestor 500 years ago I think that you would see a lot greater genetic variation that what the Galaxy is showing.
They appear close together and it points to a more recent common ancestor and that they where likely spread to Africa during British empire.
Im sure cannabis has been in Africa for thousands of years but the samples on Phylos where probably spread in the 19th century.

there are a number of strains on Phylos listed with Mel Franks name.
I never mentioned durban or dp.

aloha

Sorry to say there old bean, but going back through history hemp and ganja are very similar, at least genetically. Also trade and demand for hemp (yes, hemp) is what dominated the spread of Cannabis worldwide, and not psychoactive Cannabis. Hemp was critical in making sail cloth and rope, which was critical in wind power shipping, which dominated the globe then. Smoking weed is a rather late comer to the global scene as well. Mexican weed is a derivative of Manila HEMP, and genetically similar to Indian Ganja. Those are both similar to African strains of weed. As tested by several labs, not just Phylos. Also the history of weed/hemp/marijuana (and whatever you wanna call it) in Africa is very similar to Central and South America, and goes back to circa 1500 when global trade exploded after the Pope split the world between Portugal and Spain. Genetics are also showing close relationships between hemp and indicas. If you care to dig deeper...

You specifically mentioned South Africa with Mel Frank in our post. Most of Mel's worked African strains came through Holland, and not directly from Africa. Also Durban Poison once dominated South African weed. Now DP is all but gone there and Swazi dominates the South African weed scene. Your post specifically mentions South Africa, yes? My read anyway. So sorry if I took you out of context here. BTW: The UK never ruled all of Africa and they were rather late comers there. They were also never large players in Central or South America either.

In the end I do not care what you call Cannabis. Hemp, weed, ganja, charas, chronic, Mary Jane, dope, marijuana, marihuana, or whatever. You and the DEA seem to want to make a big distinction based solely on the amount of THC. But the genetics show otherwise, and does not take into account any of the other 145 cannabinoids. Also the distinction between 'indica' and 'sativa' is turning out to be bullcrap, and is based solely in phenotype characteristics. Again, the genetics are blowing all the old Cannabis paradigms out of the water. If you care to look. Phylos Bioscience is not the only one out there, and I would have to question the validity of their samples.

Many Cannabis genetic labs/sites/projects are going on out there. Also much research has been published online lately. PLOS|one has a good abstract on the genetic similarity of HEMP (yes, HEMP!) and indica Cannabis. Have a peek here.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0133292

And here is a good abstract of the history of Cannabis in Africa. It pretty much a composite mish mash of cultures and trade and dominating imperial factors from circa 1500 and on.

https://africanhistory.oxfordre.com...90277734.001.0001/acrefore-9780190277734-e-44

 

[Water-]

yea, me and the dea.
wtf?

Mels stuff ending up in amsterdam not the other way around.

you seem determined to present yourself as an authority on this and I have no interest in arguing against your ignorance

you got one thing right though,
I am an old bean and I didn't learn everything I know about tropical sativas from the internet


aloha

 

[yesum]

@yesum: do you know where ACE is from? i mean what nationality? and where ar they based? Could you describe the pattern of growth of the ethipian and its effects? does it require a lot of attention/car? does it like quite a bit of nutes or....? cheers Dan

ACE has a forum here. They are in Spain.

Growth is long branches with small airy buds. I grow in preamended soil only use a bit of molasses in water while the plants are in flower.

Effect is calm, positive and focused. You could work on this or meditate, also play games or socialize. Not really a 'fun' high, more towards what is called 'spiritual' by many. This is a Rasta strain and they take their herb seriously.

 

[OregonBorn]

yea, me and the dea.
wtf?

you seem determined to present yourself as an authority on this and I have no interest in arguing against your ignorance

you got one thing right though,
I am an old bean and I didn't learn everything I know about tropical sativas from the internet


aloha

Yeah, you and the DEA. Both misinformed.

On a site like this? I actually am an authority in comparison. If you actually LOOK at the items I posted here, they are research abstracts, not just internet fantasy. I post them as they support my research and claims. If you have evidence to the contrary, why not post it here? You make rather sweeping claims that there would be more genetic variation with strains originating circa 1500, however my research says otherwise. I have been all over Mexico and Central America, and I have an extensive Cannabis land race collection from the Western Hemisphere. I am contributing my genetics to the Open Cannabis Project. And yes, I study books at university libraries and I do research online. My research is more on Latin America, but as it turns out from recent genetic testing, Cannabis land race strains from Mexico and several places in Africa seem to have originated from the same place: India. I actually studied a lot of this shit at university. I also have certificates in Horticulture and botany, I believe I know way more about growing weed than most people, going back over 40 years now. Its just a fucking plant. But no matter.

 

[fizz]

Wait, you've been studying Cannabis for over 40 years? That's impressive. What is one of your all time favorite strains?

 

[OregonBorn]

The only place in South-America which is good for growing hemp is Chili, the other countries did not bring the quality the Spanish wanted.Colombian varieties are not originated from Spanish hemp, but were much brought to the country for medical research by American pharmaceutical companies, the same for Mexico and don't forget the BOEL guys.

Quite true about Mexico and Chile. I have several references (none online) that show that 16th century Chilean hemp was sourced from seed from European hemp, and that is what they grew there fro the next 350 years. It became a hemp land race of it own. Contrary to that, 16th century Mexican hemp was typically recorded as being from the Philippines (genetics tests show it was originally from India), as that was a direct point to point trade route in the early 16th century. Also in Mexico the indigenous populations started growing hemp for psychotropic purposes early on and they steeped the tops to make teas. For this reason I believe (warning, personal pet theory here) that many of the Oaxacan land race strains were strong in mint flavor as they preferred that flavor in tea. I have several land race Oaxaca strains. One has such a strong mint flavor that I cannot smoke it. It is like smoking menthol cigarettes.

BOEL did not come along until the 1960s, and for the most part (personal experience here) they imported Mexico and Colombian land race strains grown by local farmers into the US, but did not inject any genetics from other locations into Mexico or Colombia (none that I saw anyway). Until the Paraquat spraying in Mexico in the mid to late 1970s under orders from Nixon that is, and then growing weed in Mexico changed rather drastically by force. That also impacted Colombian growing practices, and increased Colombian production dramatically (and IME, the quality tanked).

Regarding Colombia, I have never found any concrete evidence as to where the land race strains came from. There was something like 30 of them all tolled? They have been genetically mapped to being closer to Thai than anything else. As to when it came there? Hemp growing in Colombia did not really take off until WWII. Psychotropic weed was grown before that in Colombia though, and smoked in different regions. But many folk tales are obviously not accurate regarding the likes of Simon Bolivar trading Colombian Gold weed for goods along the Amazon Basin. IMO he traded real gold for goods, as Colombia was a big gold producer at that time. I have some interesting results from lab tests done in Colombia on several strains, but I cannot disclose that information. There is a lot of pharma investment in Colombia going on now to develop Cannabis based drugs. Also some credible labs are emerging in Bogata. This thing is taking off, and to what end, I have no idea. I originally used the internet when it was a DARPA program, and I never dreamed it would become what it has now. Legal weed will become something I cannot even imagine at this point. Good or bad. I am still amazed that it is legal where I live.

 

[OregonBorn]

Wait, you've been studying Cannabis for over 40 years? That's impressive. What is one of your all time favorite strains?

A favorite strain... cannot give just one. Of the more modern strains? Granddaddy Purple. For heirloom weed from NorCal in the later 1970s? Purple Haze. Or my own weed grown in Salinas from Michoacan seeds. For land races, there were many. Panama Red was one. Great high. Was not much of that around after 1975 or so. Skinny Thai sticks were great. Good sativa high. Those dried up though and were replaced in the early 80s with fat oil dipped sticks that put me to sleep. Overall? How about Durban Poison. I like high THCV strains.

 

[mexcurandero420]

BOEL did not come along until the 1960s, and for the most part (personal experience here) they imported Mexico and Colombian land race strains grown by local farmers into the US, but did not inject any genetics from other locations into Mexico or Colombia (none that I saw anyway).

They did also the import of foreign genes like Lebanese into Mexico.About the indigenous people in the Americas, Cannabis was not part of their ceremonies.

About Africa which is this thread all about one main important group you forget are the Arabs.

In the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, Arabic writers described the social use of cannabis and resultant cruel but unsuccessful attempts to suppress its non-medical use.Although Galen described the use of the seeds for creating warmth, he did not describe the intoxicating qualities of hemp. Of interest is the paucity
of references to hemp's intoxicating properties in the lay and medical literature of Europe before the 1 800'S.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1503422/pdf/califmed00019-0036.pdf

 

[Water-]

Yeah, you and the DEA. Both misinformed.

On a site like this? I actually am an authority in comparison. If you actually LOOK at the items I posted here, they are research abstracts, not just internet fantasy. I post them as they support my research and claims. If you have evidence to the contrary, why not post it here? You make rather sweeping claims that there would be more genetic variation with strains originating circa 1500, however my research says otherwise. I have been all over Mexico and Central America, and I have an extensive Cannabis land race collection from the Western Hemisphere. I am contributing my genetics to the Open Cannabis Project. And yes, I study books at university libraries and I do research online. My research is more on Latin America, but as it turns out from recent genetic testing, Cannabis land race strains from Mexico and several places in Africa seem to have originated from the same place: India. I actually studied a lot of this shit at university. I also have certificates in Horticulture and botany, I believe I know way more about growing weed than most people, going back over 40 years now. Its just a fucking plant. But no matter.

You are confused.
This is from the source you sited:

"Despite its cultivation as a source of food, fibre and medicine, and its global status as the most used illicit drug, the genus Cannabis has an inconclusive taxonomic organization and evolutionary history. Drug types of Cannabis (marijuana), which contain high amounts of the psychoactive cannabinoid Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), are used for medical purposes and as a recreational drug. Hemp types are grown for the production of seed and fibre, and contain low amounts of THC. Two species or gene pools (C. sativa and C. indica) are widely used in describing the pedigree or appearance of cultivated Cannabis plants. Using 14,031 single-nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) genotyped in 81 marijuana and 43 hemp samples, we show that

MARIJUANA AND HEMP ARE SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENTIATED AT A GENOME WIDE LEVEL, demonstrating that THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THESE POPULATIONS IS NOT LIMITED TO GENES UNDERLYING THC PRODUCTION."



Psychoactive cannabis existed long before 1500.
The ganja in Africa arrived there as psychoactive cannabis, it was not bread from industrial fiber hemp by the natives. Though there has been hybridization with industrial hemp in some cases.


I would love to see what they where smoking in Great Zimbabwe a thousand years ago or what the Austronesians brought to Madagascar, but we may never discover those genetics.

----

"Cannabis land race strains from Mexico and several places in Africa seem to have originated from the same place: India. "

Are you aware that you are now arguing the same point I already made and you disagreed with?

---

and concerning your claim that "Manila Hemp" is the source of Mexican Marijuana,
it isn't even Cannabis:
"Manila hemp is a type of buff-colored fiber obtained from Musa textilis, a relative of edible bananas, which is also called Manila hemp[1] as well as abacá. It is mostly used for pulping for a range of uses, including speciality papers. It was once used mainly to make manila rope,[2]"

In the future you may want to skip Leafly as a source of your research on Cannabis.

please don't waste anymore space on this thread with your nonsense

Aloha