Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[VortexPower420]

Sorry to side track but, jidoka, how is biochar "woowoo"?

When you understand it's relationship with the soil it is far from witch craft.

Now if you think you can go buy a bag of charcoal and use it as biochar I could see why you might not think it works. True biochar is a amazing soil addition.

Just has to pass the soap test.

Edit* After thinking about and skiming through Arden Anderson's book it reminded me of the work of Krasilnikov and his work with soil.

He states that all vitamins, secondary metabolites and enzymes are produced the the soil. He has even showed the change in soil life towards the end of the plants life.

After taking a biochar class recently with one to the guys on the front line, some attributes of biochar were brought to light.

It is a soil cleanser, it will suck up excess in the soil, store them and slowly release them in non toxic amounts as food for microbes when needed.

It also takes up all the excess pland exudes for use at a later date.

So putting these ideas together seems like biochar is the perfect amendment in a loving soil.

Microbes exuced benifical plant compounds, the biochar stores some and plant roots/microbes access as needed.

Another attribute of biochar in the soil is when there is not plant life or root exudes In the soil at the end of the season, biochar will slowy realase the microbe food and keep the soil biota well feed untill next season.

Far from woowoo.

Of course not to mention it positive effect on climate change. We need to get the carbon in our soils if we want to inhabit the planet for more the 100 years or so we have left.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

I have seen benefits to biochar, but everyone sells it for big money. It would be more economical to make it yourself out of your own residual biomass laying around your farm. Buildasoil wants a ton of money for their "pre-charged" biochar. You also have to consider that it raises soil pH. Less is more with biochar and it has to be economical.

 

[slownickel]

We make biochar at my farm. Using rice hulls is the easiest.

What do they charge locally where you are?

I have seen roots grab the biochar and wrap them selves all around it.

We did experiments with more and more on several avocado trees. I need to go out and evaluate those experiments, haven't taken a hard look in more that 6 months.

I will take some photos.

 

[orechron]

I've seen some of the most impressive roots in medias with 5-10% char. It is alkaline, 9.6 pH in the sample I sent in, but its loaded with P, had 60% Ca, 20% Mg, 12% K, near 1:1 Iron to Manganese and a bunch of other micros. I'm going to amend the topsoil in my front yard for food production eventually and char will be part of the mix. One thing I've found is that there is a huge difference in sizes between brands. One producer is making it out of timber industry leftovers and sells the fines for a bit cheaper. They give a better response initially I'm sure due to more surface area exposed in the soil.

 

[jidoka]

build a soil charges 378 per yard which is why I never looked into it. It appears I should. I always figured it is just a way to raise carbon in the soil and yr over yr mine is going up as long as I don't get impatient and overdo N

I would think the analysis would depend on the original source material

 

[slownickel]

We made a roller grinder to make it into powder. More surface area the better and easier for the microbes to do their thing.

I am pretty sure folks confuse the reasons to use it though. Using the material incorrectly or getting a sub standard product will give lots of folks the wrong idea about this amazing amendment.

When we were clearing some brush and had the left over of burn piles full of carbon (the ash flies off in the wind) we had some interesting experiences. That field when planted with sweet potatoes, had some unbelievable green spots, which were super loaded with sweet potatoes. When we dug down, guess where those spots were? Yep, they were full of dispersed biochar, albeit not made intentionally. The sweet potatoes were huge and the plants had loads that were not to be believed.

 

[VortexPower420]

From what I learned is the nutrient values cone from the ash left on the char.

Fully chared char should have no nutrientvalue.

Also you can test the cleanliness (no leftover oily or toxic compounds) of the char by rubbing some in-between your fingers. If you need soap to was it off it is no good to use.

Water only should wash it off.

Do not use charcoal.

 

[slownickel]

When I make biochar, there is no ash.

 

[slownickel]

Ash is super alkaline and will twang the hell out of any crop in which you plant where ash is mixed in given our high pH's here to begin with. Plus almost always, ash will lead to boron toxicity here in Peru. Seen it many times in grapes.

Pretty sure that in the Brazilian and Peruvian forests where the Tierra Preta was discovered from many moons ago, they used charcoal.... watch the video on youtube.

 

[slownickel]

JIDOKA,

How much water is that per pot every other day, at 8% of your volume?

 

[orechron]

build a soil charges 378 per yard which is why I never looked into it. It appears I should. I always figured it is just a way to raise carbon in the soil and yr over yr mine is going up as long as I don't get impatient and overdo N

I would think the analysis would depend on the original source material

I agree. I think that most of what I've looked at so far is from timber waste. You'd probably seeing higher Calcium if the source material was grown in high Ca soil.

From what I learned is the nutrient values cone from the ash left on the char.

Fully chared char should have no nutrientvalue.

Metal oxides or carbonates in ash. Both contain Oxygen so how is this happening via pyrolysis (supposedly absence of O2). Are people just making it inefficiently?

When I make biochar, there is no ash.

What is the pH of the end product?

Ash is super alkaline and will twang the hell out of any crop in which you plant where ash is mixed in given our high pH's here to begin with. Plus almost always, ash will lead to boron toxicity here in Peru. Seen it many times in grapes.

Pretty sure that in the Brazilian and Peruvian forests where the Tierra Preta was discovered from many moons ago, they used charcoal.... watch the video on youtube.

Seems like a risky input with 7+ pH. How are you producing a neutral char? Or are you mixing with other organic matter prior to incorporating? Here it doesn't matter. Acid clays greatly benefit from char.

 

[VortexPower420]

Orech- yes it comes from O2 making its way in. Common, especially in large scale biomass plants

It is valuable with ash if it is needed but other wise, watch out.

Curious how you make your bio char slownickel. Do you use a cone or do you do a retort.

Maybe we should continue this in the biochar thread? I have been reading alot about it and the results are undeniable, in my experience. I would love to keep this conversation going.

It's going to help save the planet.

 

[caterpillar710]

At $15 per gallon, spraying 7 gallons in 100 gal (370 liters) mix, that is pretty ritzy. I spray Albion, half a liter per ha in 1000 liters of water. That half a liter of three different amazing chelates (one of the only that had results by the USDA trials) at $20/liter, means I have $30 in materials. I spray 660 avocado or lime trees that are two years old and get amazing response. I would have to spray 20 gallons of Kempf woojoo at $300!!!! I like bang for the buck.

The issue is the size of the molecule and its efficiency, go watch Todd Edwards on Youtube for Albion talk about the various sizes of chelated molecules and the reason to use aminoacids, not molasses.

Why do you think Kempf has to get such high concentrations so that you see results? What does that tell you?

Did some woo woo juice cost per unit , I'm spending about 7 dollars per lb...or about 70 dollars a plant for March when I sprout the seeds till October harvest so about 8 dollars a month ... Doesn't seem too bad

 

[gaines1016]

Did some woo woo juice cost per unit , I'm spending about 7 dollars per lb...or about 70 dollars a plant for March when I sprout the seeds till October harvest so about 8 dollars a month ... Doesn't seem too bad

sounds reasonable

 

[slownickel]

Seventy a plant!???? Wow. That is a bit absurd.

I am in the wrong business. It is now official. My new line of products will be called, "WooWoo Juice" Kind of catchy.

 

[reppin2c]

What's the retail on a pound? And how many a plant?

 

[caterpillar710]

Seventy a plant!???? Wow. That is a bit absurd.

I am in the wrong business. It is now official. My new line of products will be called, "WooWoo Juice" Kind of catchy.

That's a great name but when that 70 dollars nets produce that's selling for 2.50 a gram and 1 plant produces 3-5kg the economics don't seem bad? Come up here I'll send you a ticket.

 

[slownickel]

How about we double the yield and cut cost in half and make the stuff stupidly wicked, reaching maximum genetic potential... lick your fingers good, brought to you by JUICE.

 

[slownickel]

Just for the heck of it, my Masters studies were in Agricultural Economics. haha... seriously.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Just for the heck of it, my Masters studies were in Agricultural Economics. haha... seriously.

AEA is one of the cheap guys. You should see what some of these other companies are selling their magic potions for targeted to pot farmers, and they are mostly water. At least AEA has products where the MSDS reads a density of 1.3-1.6. I have seen hydro products with a density of 1.01 go for big bucks.