Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[slownickel]

Foot,

Is your water analysis posted somewhere?

 

[maxmurder]

I've found paste tests to be practically worthless also. I've seen paste tests with numbers all over the board, highly variable, all growing similar looking plants.

i thought i read somewhere around here that a sat paste test tells me what's available right now and a soil test tells me whats available in the future after everything starts breaking down and is available.
this is what i've been thinking for months, is this correct? can someone explain?? (in lame-man terms)
i've been trying to to use balanced organic soil in my greenhouse beds this year for 2 deps and 1 small full term but things haven't been working out.

 

[slownickel]

Max,

Roots exude amino acids which acidifies the elements within reach. If the roots exude acids, what can saturated paste tell you? Saturated paste is about pushing ppm's and was developed to sell fertilizer... more woo woo juice.

 

[maxmurder]

Max,

Roots exude amino acids which acidifies the elements within reach. If the roots exude acids, what can saturated paste tell you? Saturated paste is about pushing ppm's and was developed to sell fertilizer... more woo woo juice.

ok so if roots exude amino acids and make elements easier to break down and become available to plants this is what makes a living cover crop so great because instead of just roots from our plants doing this in a small area basically the whole bed is doing this as long as the bed is filled with cover crop correct?

what makes roots exude acids?

another problem i had was one of 3 main "food" ingredients in the coot's mix i used was kelp meal which i later found out took 4+ months to become available.

i was reading the sat paste test thinking it was telling me what was available right after mixing and planting my first dep, the kelp wouldn't even be available until 1/2 way thru second dep. so i could use aea bottles to provide what wasn't available at the time.

i get now that mixing a soil and not knowing how long it takes to become available might work out if doing big ass monster trees that have all season, trying to run several deps in 7-8 months wouldn't work unless you tested, cover crop, amend, test all winter long, then plant.

expensive lessons.

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Milky was the first person to tell you there was a problem with your microbes. He's probably right, but maybe you didn't like the way he worded it. Either way, you're floundering because your plants don't look perfect, but you're probably still going to have a good season. Maybe its the sea shield. Too much of anything can shut down certain species.

Fwiw I've found paste tests to be practically worthless also. I've seen paste tests with numbers all over the board, highly variable, all growing similar looking plants.

I really don't get you guys. I am floundering? Really? What makes you think I am floundering? Did I say I needed help? Did I ask for an RX?

floun·der1
ˈfloundər/
verb
gerund or present participle: floundering
struggle or stagger helplessly or clumsily in water or mud.
"he was floundering about in the shallow offshore waters"
synonyms:struggle, thrash, flail, twist and turn, splash, stagger, stumble, reel, lurch, blunder, squirm, writhe "people were floundering in the water"

• struggle mentally; show or feel great confusion.
  "she floundered, not knowing quite what to say"
  synonyms:struggle, be out of one's depth, have difficulty, be confounded, be confused; Moreinformalscratch one's head, be flummoxed, be clueless, be foxed, be fazed, be floored, be beaten
  "she floundered, not knowing quite what to say"
  
  
  
  
  
  
• be in serious difficulty.
  "many firms are floundering"
  synonyms:struggle financially, be in dire straits, face financial ruin, be in difficulties, face bankruptcy/insolvency, founder "more firms are floundering"
  
  
  
  
  

Really man?
Thanks anyways.

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

I keep coming in here purely sharing what is working for me. I am not asking for help. Stop calling me names people. WTF?

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Also if anything it's too much Rej. IMO.

 

[reppin2c]

Gotta remember it's words on the Internet. Things don't come across like they should if it was a phone call or in person. Same with texts.

I'm gotta have a pep talk with myself and the crew today. I will use floundering at some point....but in a good way, like we dont flounder. At the commencement of it all there will be trI'm flying everywhere like its scene from Edward scissor hands.

Also I think I need the pep talk the most

 

[orechron]

i thought i read somewhere around here that a sat paste test tells me what's available right now and a soil test tells me whats available in the future after everything starts breaking down and is available.
this is what i've been thinking for months, is this correct? can someone explain?? (in lame-man terms)
i've been trying to to use balanced organic soil in my greenhouse beds this year for 2 deps and 1 small full term but things haven't been working out.

Sat paste test uses DI water if I remember right (someone correct me if I'm wrong). So, your just dissolving soil in water with a near neutral pH and seeing what comes into the solution. The other tests like Mehlich 3 use stronger acids that are pulling all the nutrients off the exchange sites to give you a total number on what may be there for the plant in the long run. I think you have the right idea.

What about your grow would you like to improve? There is a balancing soil nutrients thread that you might benefit from. I can't remember right now if you're in it?

ok so if roots exude amino acids and make elements easier to break down and become available to plants this is what makes a living cover crop so great because instead of just roots from our plants doing this in a small area basically the whole bed is doing this as long as the bed is filled with cover crop correct?

It's true that there would be more total root exudates in soils with a cover crop, but it might not be as good of an idea as it first appears. It's hard to tell how many of your soils nutrients could be used up by the cover crop. I also don't feel like a thick cover crop is better for water conservation than a good mulch layer. I think once large canna plants get established and are healthy they can exude enough by themselves.

what makes roots exude acids?

That is probably as complex a question as you would like to make it. Plants are crazy. Lots of chemical signaling and relationships with soil microbes that we don't understand. They seem to have the ability to choose microbial partners based on limited resources and also the partners ability to trade well. They might have genes that turn on when a nutrient becomes limited. I haven't looked for the research.

another problem i had was one of 3 mail "food" ingredients in the coot's mix i used was kelp meal which i later found out took 4+ months to become available.

4+ months seems like too long. Think about what happens when you mix that alfalfa in: microbes get on it immediately. I've seen cut grass piles start to heat up within hours. In the case of ground up plant amendments, they spike soil EC quickly, which means that whatever was added is breaking down and putting ions into your soil. I'd wager that much of that alfalfa is available within weeks, especially if its ground up.

i was reading the sat paste test thinking it was telling me what was available right after mixing and planting my first dep, the kelp wouldn't even be available until 1/2 way thru second dep. so i could use aea bottles to provide what wasn't available at the time.

i get now that mixing a soil and not knowing how long it takes to become available might work out if doing big ass monster trees that have all season, trying to run several deps in 7-8 months wouldn't work unless you tested, cover crop, amend, test all winter long, then plant.

I like to test at the beginning, middle, and end of a grow. I think if you have a heavier soil you wouldn't need to do this but I'm still growing in stuff that weighs much less (it changes more readily) and I'm a control freak. My testing totals up to $700 per cycle and I don't mind because I have a better feel of whats going on.

expensive lessons.

Foothill, this is the post that came to mind where you started asking people questions:

Is anybody else willing to post up application rates? I have been upping my rates for over a month now, and also top dressing with 6-10 cups of Biolive per plant and I am still loosing overall energy in the plant. Been getting a great plant response the next day after applications, but fades quick.

It's not clear what the plant response is but it is clear that you want advice from others because you are seeing something you think could improve.

These are my current rates per gallon, once a week. (soil drench)

8ml phosphorous
8ml holocal
2ml MicroPak
16ml Rejuvenate
16ml Sea Shield
4ml Sea Stim
8ml potassium

I have been skipping the potassium and phosphorous for a little while now, due to my soil be loaded up. Would love to hear what application rates others are doing outdoors this year.

This is the post that suggested what was going on:

sounds like you have shut down your soil biology. The most well known similar case is if the plant has enough P it will not send the exudate that feeds mycoorhizal fungi. I am sure the same applies to bacteria.

I keep coming in here purely sharing what is working for me. I am not asking for help. Stop calling me names people. WTF?

You were asking for help and nobody has called you any names. Floundering means confused. I was describing your state of mind not calling you a Flounder.

 

[reppin2c]

Correct standard test=total nutes and paste test=soluble nutes.

Whatever process it takes to get there I don't know exactly, I pay the lab for that. With plants in the soil and way crazy numbers I'd say microlife isnt operating properly. Rejuvenate and Pepzyme bump life numbers. Haven't had a paste test with good Ca or P numbers yet....K is off the chain always

My soils are pretty stacked with ferts. I use compost teas to give them a nudge in whatever way I feel like they need it.

I'm seeing a lil B def which I thought was Ca before but I forgot the rule. So I have corrective tea with a touch of B in it. If I had PHT Ca I would have foliar ed that. Pretty sure that one has B in it if memor serves. Smells like bengay and I think that's from the borax.

 

[maxmurder]

What about your grow would you like to improve? There is a balancing soil nutrients thread that you might benefit from. I can't remember right now if you're in it?

yeah i asked somewhere pretty sure it was that thread if any one knew how long it took for a freshly mixed batch of coots mix to break down and become available to the plants.
my first dep my flowers never swelled or filled in, they set, blew out tons of trichs but no buds over 3/4 of an inch.
my sap pH was 6.3-6.5 and brix was 12 or better on sunny days.
they had great posture and no pests or pm.
the healthiest, happiest plants i ever grew.
leadsled explained my soil test to me and my sodium was 3x max ppms suggested and my sulfur was 20x.


Foothill, this is the post that came to mind where you started asking people questions:



This is the post that suggested what was going on:





You were asking for help and nobody has called you any names. Floundering means confused. I was describing your state of mind not calling you a Flounder.

when i was a kid we would describe a bad surf session as floundering. "dude i was just fucking floundering out there.."
or if were up on the cliff and saw someone learning we would judge them and put them down by calling them a kook or a flounder.

 

[Dab Strudel]

You guys have got to stop feeding into FF1, He doesnt want advice, he wants to 'share what works'... I tried to talk to him on the side and he did nothing but troll me for trying to say anything to him. ive blocked him and im still seeing the last couple posts, just stop talking to him because anything you do and say will be held against you, as well as being trolled into a stupid fkn argument for NOOOOO REEEEASONNN. He doesnt want your help and he doesnt realize every garden is too different to compare any... and something about reading the first page and shoving it in your earhole... just leave him alone.

 

[Dab Strudel]

After such a late start I am not going to try to buy all the individual bottles. What do you guys recommend I get more of or add to the order from AEA. Tainio I am going to order separately since Im on the West Coast. Im going to do 40 plants in 1 yard each of some Fire OG or Boss OG from dark heart. I want to veg for another week or 2 after I transplant.
And a middle finger to who ever laughs about my late start, You dont know what ive gone thru to get to this position and retain it. literally up hill battles (no snow thankfully ), figurative up hill battles, Just a ton of bull shit. Im glad to have a plant and a place to put it. Thank you all.

Edit: has anyone used leafzyme from tainio? same as other products or something useful to us?

 

[Shcrews]

And a middle finger to who ever laughs about my late start, You dont know what ive gone thru to get to this position and retain it.

why respond to imaginary ridicule? seems like a paranoid spot to be in. most people are friendly and the ones who arent should just be ignored


re: your question, ive been using the special blend A&B (although i think they changed the name). its supposed to be an all-in-one type thing.

 

[xmobotx]

Post your results if you don't mind.

here's my container mix; not sure how sulfur got ridiculous on it

 

[oct]

Foothillflounder

Foothillflounder

Sorry broski..couldn't resist.

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Foothill, this is the post that came to mind where you started asking people questions:

I know you are a smart guy, but show me where the question is here..... Show me where I am asking for others advice. I am here purely adhering to the OP's rules. Reread the first post, and find the point of the thread.

Here is a hint, if somebody doesn't put a question mark at the end of a sentence, that means it's not a question. Ok?

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Also, you quoted from convertations weeks apart to purely make it look bad? Context matters, and it appears you are just trying to make me look bad.....Sucks, another AEA person too good for the boards.

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Dab, your lost. I tried to help. Putting plants in one yard of soil now, or in a week or month when you get around to it, is just not going to work. Sorry you didn't like hearing that, but it's true.

 

[FoothillFarmer1]

Got my solvita co2 results back.......No signs of low microbial activity........

I guess I need to work on my game. You guys are able to detect low microbial life from sentences like, "Is anybody else willing to post up application rates?" Here I am, looking for food web indications of life, solvita testing from laboratories, and visual plant response, yet I can't find the evidence of low microbial activity.......Guess I need to study harder, and spend another 500$ in tests that I share so others can learn with me.

Anybody that is interested in my learning/teaching/studies/lab tests, come check out my thread. After now the third person in this thread has voiced that I am not wanted, I will leave the thread for a while again. Thanks for allowing me to flounder for a bit.