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Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science
- Thread starter FatherEarth
- Start date
neverforget4/20
Member
Hey MJ,
I am not too far from Lancaster PA. Ive never seen those keystone bio ag greenhouse media sacks! How did you source those?
Im interested in the very low K aspect and would experiment with using it as a base for john franks products.
Thanks for sharing.
I am not too far from Lancaster PA. Ive never seen those keystone bio ag greenhouse media sacks! How did you source those?
Im interested in the very low K aspect and would experiment with using it as a base for john franks products.
Thanks for sharing.
That's the Tom hill method
Im with Tom hill on that one...
As near as I remember...so this is highly questionable...I read about it in one of AEA's snail mail newsletters. Sam Zook is a distributor for their product and is connected to Penn Valley Farms. http://pennvalleyfarm.com/ just hunt the greenhouse media.
I like his writing style. Somehow I got the impression they were using mid west bio ag compost and dry crustacean meal. So I called AEA and gave it a shot.
Unfortunately when you send in a sample it is not actually low K. But, it is so light it does not take long for it to use up the K it has...Cep ran tests and can probably enlighten us.
I tried it in a 65 gallon pot with an OG last summer. It runs out of food quickly and you have to start feeding. On a positive note it obviously allows the plant to take up plenty of Ca early on...you get nice waxy leaves.
I would say it would be great for starting seeds and it is gonna be excellent for like putting your clones in a 6 inch pot and getting them started for a week or so.
At that point I want to go with a heavier soil (bigger battery as they say).
The truth is I have become a fan of not so much compost. I never find it without too much K and P. Anymore for starts I build a base from peat and perlite, add 10 lbs per yard Ca and just enough worm casting to bring K up to 4% or so. That allows them to take up plenty of Ca early in life.
The Nova Crop Control sap 2015 that FE posted offers a perfect explanation.
But yea, if I were close I would use it for starts up to 6 inch pots without doubt. But be aware bigger than that and it acts like Fox Farm where it is good for a while but then you have to feed...although I think if you add enough Ca to Fox Farm you could extend that a long ways.
Since when does organic soil run out of food quickly ???? i mean really when you think about it when adding compost or minerals to a soil your not adding food your adding soil amendments ... could this be why there is no label saying fertilizer ??? when looking at inorganic it does say fertilizer on the bag or what ever
could you not add all the amendments you want in a soil YET the soil does not activate i mean if a person had 0 nitrogen in there soil by adding all other components would your soil sustain life ??? could it convert the organic matter or should i say could the microorganisms do there job ???
i think we need to step back for a moment and understand that adding manure to soil is not food there still needs the process of decomposition, before it becomes food to the plant
i think we need to work on percentages of organic composts per soil or find that happy medium that works best for that certain plant species......
look here i have never added manures , gypsum, lime or another amendment in my garden , I do have a compost bin, although i make culverts 1 - 2 feet deep approx 3 feet apart and put my compost which contains pretty much everything including grass clippings, eggshells , coffee grinds, and filters ( not fully decomposed ) even saved grease and fat you name it.
All greens yet year after year garden only gets rain water no booster teas nothing
and it thrives and thrives who knows maybe after growing in it for over 50 years straight the soil found equilibrium???? cause when i dig deep down theres hundreds of huge worms and on top soil 1000's of insects etc
Everyone makes organic growing so fucking complicated hahah its almost to funny really specially on MJ sites like MJ is a special needs plant hahaha.
could you not add all the amendments you want in a soil YET the soil does not activate i mean if a person had 0 nitrogen in there soil by adding all other components would your soil sustain life ??? could it convert the organic matter or should i say could the microorganisms do there job ???
i think we need to step back for a moment and understand that adding manure to soil is not food there still needs the process of decomposition, before it becomes food to the plant
i think we need to work on percentages of organic composts per soil or find that happy medium that works best for that certain plant species......
look here i have never added manures , gypsum, lime or another amendment in my garden , I do have a compost bin, although i make culverts 1 - 2 feet deep approx 3 feet apart and put my compost which contains pretty much everything including grass clippings, eggshells , coffee grinds, and filters ( not fully decomposed ) even saved grease and fat you name it.
All greens yet year after year garden only gets rain water no booster teas nothing
and it thrives and thrives who knows maybe after growing in it for over 50 years straight the soil found equilibrium???? cause when i dig deep down theres hundreds of huge worms and on top soil 1000's of insects etc
Everyone makes organic growing so fucking complicated hahah its almost to funny really specially on MJ sites like MJ is a special needs plant hahaha.
that just tells you whats there whats important is organic compost to dirt ratio/ percentage
neverforget4/20
Member
According to my buddy who had promix tested, straight peat is above or at desired K level. Perhaps he misunderstood?
neverforget4/20
Member
Since when does organic soil run out of food quickly ???? i mean really when you think about it when adding compost or minerals to a soil your not adding food your adding soil amendments ... could this be why there is no label saying fertilizer ??? when looking at inorganic it does say fertilizer on the bag or what ever
could you not add all the amendments you want in a soil YET the soil does not activate i mean if a person had 0 nitrogen in there soil by adding all other components would your soil sustain life ??? could it convert the organic matter or should i say could the microorganisms do there job ???
i think we need to step back for a moment and understand that adding manure to soil is not food there still needs the process of decomposition, before it becomes food to the plant
i think we need to work on percentages of organic composts per soil or find that happy medium that works best for that certain plant species......
look here i have never added manures , gypsum, lime or another amendment in my garden , I do have a compost bin, although i make culverts 1 - 2 feet deep approx 3 feet apart and put my compost which contains pretty much everything including grass clippings, eggshells , coffee grinds, and filters ( not fully decomposed ) even saved grease and fat you name it.
All greens yet year after year garden only gets rain water no booster teas nothing
and it thrives and thrives who knows maybe after growing in it for over 50 years straight the soil found equilibrium???? cause when i dig deep down theres hundreds of huge worms and on top soil 1000's of insects etc
Everyone makes organic growing so fucking complicated hahah its almost to funny really specially on MJ sites like MJ is a special needs plant hahaha.
Interesting perspective.
When you said "greens" were you referring to vegetables? If so have you had any produce analysed for nutritional content?
My understanding is that the specific mineral ratios support ideal nutritional profiles. So sure a compost rich media will potentially provide for a decent harvest but not a full complement of mineral nutrition. I am most definitely open to correction or clarification.
If you were using "greens" as a euphemism have you an analysis for that produce?
So I get the volume vs weight difference between LL and FGL... but who can explain the 0.39 difference in pH from the same soil sample? That's pretty significant imo. 2 different tests. 2 different labs. Same exact sample.
No i have not went and got my produce tested but friends and family can see the difference in taste
what i am trying to say is for instance my last years garden produced lots of everything tasted great and through out summer there was no signs of any deficiencies in any vegetable my potatoes foilage was 5 feet tall healthy strong with 0 def as well i know for one thing it appears to have responded well meaning the it has right amount of nutrients when it was needed through out its life cycle Right ??
I do not stress so much on my soils more or less let mother nature deal with it i only add in spring , little mid summer , and in fall composts thats it thats all
i am doing a out door grow this year what my plans are is to top dress soils with fresh green grass clippings through out plants life weekly / bi weekly of course i made a soil up EWC, composts etc etc also adding some of my out door natural organic mix but thinking with extra grass clippings Nitrogen it might do wonders
We will see
neverforget4/20
Member
thanks good info.
Some of the john frank followers fold the canna trimmings into used soil or "cooking" media and they refer to the practice as "tuning" the media.
Some of the john frank followers fold the canna trimmings into used soil or "cooking" media and they refer to the practice as "tuning" the media.
Where did he have it tested? If you look at the pH of peat you can easily see it does not have a lot of base cations at all.
Coco...which is closer to neutral does have a lot of K. One of the reasons I don't like it.
I am not familiar with john frank...do you have a link. I do the same though...if I don't use it, it goes back in the soil. It owee me those minerals back
neverforget4/20
Member
john frank is associated with : http://www.aglabs.com/
I am not sure where the peat was tested. Ill see if i can get that info.
The principles of frank's philosophy are very much like kempf's.
I am not sure where the peat was tested. Ill see if i can get that info.
The principles of frank's philosophy are very much like kempf's.
neverforget4/20
Member
re: K in peat.
The formatting is screwy, i apologize.
If "ash" is potash and those %s represent dry weight then wouldnt the K values shown for peat be considerable?
Type of Peat Range in Ash Content (%) Range in pH Range in Vol. Weights (lbs./ft.3)
Sphagnum moss peat 1.0-5.0 3.0-4.0 4.5-7.0
Hypnum moss peat 4.0-10.0 5.0-7.0 5.0-10.0
Reed-sedge peat(low lime) 5.0-15.0 4.0-5.0 10.-15.0
Reed-sedge peat (high lime) 5.0-18.0 5.1-7.5 10.0-18.0
Decomposed peat 10.0-50.0 5.0-7.5 10.0-40.0
The formatting is screwy, i apologize.
If "ash" is potash and those %s represent dry weight then wouldnt the K values shown for peat be considerable?
Type of Peat Range in Ash Content (%) Range in pH Range in Vol. Weights (lbs./ft.3)
Sphagnum moss peat 1.0-5.0 3.0-4.0 4.5-7.0
Hypnum moss peat 4.0-10.0 5.0-7.0 5.0-10.0
Reed-sedge peat(low lime) 5.0-15.0 4.0-5.0 10.-15.0
Reed-sedge peat (high lime) 5.0-18.0 5.1-7.5 10.0-18.0
Decomposed peat 10.0-50.0 5.0-7.5 10.0-40.0
C
Cep
Regarding peat, it will test in the 4's for pH and I've seen K saturation as low as .5%. My last pro mix test a month ago came back with 1.79% K though. I add roughly 7 lbs of Calcium/yard to peat or peat based mixes and it works well.
Leadsled, Cool, thanks for posting that. AEA sells this mix so we might as well dig into it. I had Keystone analyzed about 3 months ago and I got really similar numbers with the standard test, but not so drastic with the K in the paste test. Like Milky said, it will show a K def first and you wouldn't expect that by the numbers. What I've found is good practice with this mix is to wet and innoculate with microbes two weeks prior to when you plan to use it. It comes pretty dry and maybe the micro herd has gone dormant. Also, this stuff seems to need more wetting agent than other stuff.
Leadsled, Cool, thanks for posting that. AEA sells this mix so we might as well dig into it. I had Keystone analyzed about 3 months ago and I got really similar numbers with the standard test, but not so drastic with the K in the paste test. Like Milky said, it will show a K def first and you wouldn't expect that by the numbers. What I've found is good practice with this mix is to wet and innoculate with microbes two weeks prior to when you plan to use it. It comes pretty dry and maybe the micro herd has gone dormant. Also, this stuff seems to need more wetting agent than other stuff.
