Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[growingcrazy]

What ec's are you running?

I was doing testing last year, and even at the rate of 12ml per gallon at an 8% soil volume, the pacific grow didn't move my ppms AT ALL. Didn't start to move until top dressings or aminos.

25 ppm of N isn't going to do much.

I used fish hydrolysate at 2oz/sqft after transplant. Roughly 120 ppm N.

 

[EasyGoing]

25 ppm of N isn't going to do much.

I used fish hydrolysate at 2oz/sqft after transplant. Roughly 120 ppm N.

Agreed.

I would feed that weekly and after a month and a half, still no movement in ppms.

 

[EasyGoing]

I often call pacific grow, vitamin water. Not much in it, but the microbes do like it.

 

[reppin2c]

I used 5 gallons of pacific gro w/biochar in 400ish gallons. 1.25% sounds weak but response was good. And I water in 1 gallon couple days before that. It seemed my microbe population wasn't on par so I was trying to crank that

 

[plantingplants]

Bottom, top
4100, 1800 no3
200, 58 ca
1900, 520 k
7.1, 6.5 ph

Here is the 2nd plant in same pot. Sample leaves from this plant were not as yellow as the first plant. I had to take a little higher since most bottom leaves were dead.

Bottom, top
2400, 1400 no3
110, 40 ca
7, 6.5 pH
700, 350-110? k (crept down to 110, paused for a sec so happy face then kept going down)

I cant find the damn lid to my backpack sprayer.

 

[EasyGoing]

I just went to open up some old bottles from last year, and they are rancid. Didn't even last a year in a dark, air conditioned room. Sucks to pay for woo woo juice, then to have half explode in your house, and the other half spoil in less than a year.

Only product I still use is MicroPak, and even that pumps B way too high.

 

[slownickel]

I just went to open up some old bottles from last year, and they are rancid. Didn't even last a year in a dark, air conditioned room. Sucks to pay for woo woo juice, then to have half explode in your house, and the other half spoil in less than a year.

Only product I still use is MicroPak, and even that pumps B way too high.

The woowoo man Kempf strikes again!

 

[conradino23]

You're definitely on the way to High Brix soil. High potassium content is usually the problem in Ca/Mg uptake. The problem is that all of them are absorbed in cationic form and that all are uptaken through the same channels, which means they compete in soil. There's no way to get the right metabolism if ratio of these nutrients is not regulated first. The problem is that you cannot just flush out cations from the soil as they have positive charge and adsorb to soil particles. The only thing you can do is let the grow run its course, let the plant absorb excess of potassium and start over with the same soil that you enrich with Ca/Mg. The perfect ratio of NPK for HB soil should be 1-1-1 with 15-20% of calcium on top of it and 7:1 ratio of Ca to Mg. Do you use refractometer?

 

[conradino23]

You have more than 3x as much K as your plant wants. That a) explains the high pH in the lower leaf and b) guarantees you do not have enough Ca and/or Mg in the plant.

The lack of Mg along with the excess no3 guarantees you do not have enough phosphate

Excess no3 does not mean enough protein. Protein (chlorophyll) takes Mg also

Problem 1 is too much K. You gotta get enough gypsum and water in that soil to flush the K. Then get Mg and P in the plant...spray them to avoid the soil problems. Try Mg first

Ah sorry I was addressing this member's post.

 

[jidoka]

This member thinks you are full of shit. N=K in the soil...good luck with that

 

[reppin2c]

I generally get N at 10% of K on a soil analysis. A lot of my N is probably tied up with carbon. Didn't add any N or K really this year.

Sure added A lot of P though, around 30 lbs

 

[plantingplants]

My sap ca is consistenly under 100, even after gyp application. Is that really low?

Also is there an easy way to increase brix? Idk much about it. My plants are 5-7. Mostly fuzzy.

 

[orechron]

Ca around 100 ppm on those meters is a common reading. I've seen it around 200 before on super healthy plants and jidoka gets higher readings sometimes. Unlike K, its not very mobile so this particular meter isn't as useful.

 

[leadsled]

IME, Over 2000 ppm is where you want to be with calcium in the sap.

Usually see higher calcium levels in combination with lower K levels. If K is 2000-3000 ppm cal is usually short. 100-200 ppm/
When potassium is at 500-600 ppm I see calcium levels 1000-3000ppm.

 

[plantingplants]

Well damn. Lead are you talking horiba meter or ICP (live leaf sent to lab)

 

[jidoka]

Well it just got seriously interesting. Probably too much to ask for but this would be fun to debate w/o haters or told you soers.

Led...how do you collect sap?

Edit...and it is clear as fuck to me holding K down is the key to Ca uptake. Get too much K in there and you can't get Ca and first you wonder why is my brix so low followed by where did these fuckin mites come from...I use ipm, lol

 

[EastBayGrower]

Knowledge getting dropped left and right in this thread, I gotta snag one of those K meters, wanted to get calcium but orch last comment changed my mind, thanks guys, I'll b lurking...

 

[slownickel]

The article written by Sister Mary that someone posted earlier demonstrated that one cannot ever recuperate from a Ca deficiency yet you can recuperate from a K deficiency.

This is why it is so critical to have enough space to apply K...

Without P above K, other big problem.

Not enough B, not enough Ca.

Too much N, doesn't matter how much Ca you have. You won't get Ca uptake.

Too much water, you won't get Ca uptake.

LED, you doing like Planting? Top vs bottom of the plant? You running leaf analysis against your sap meter? Which elements?

We used sap meters on asparagus roots and growth point against leaf analysis, little correlation in that crop. Little correlation with yield either. Also, time of day, which side of the plant, etc... numbers were all over the place.

If you all are going to go down this path folks, share a protocol.

Time of day, press method, calibration, etc... start another thread too.

 

[orechron]

IME, Over 2000 ppm is where you want to be with calcium in the sap.

Usually see higher calcium levels in combination with lower K levels. If K is 2000-3000 ppm cal is usually short. 100-200 ppm/
When potassium is at 500-600 ppm I see calcium levels 1000-3000ppm.

I still haven't seen that much calcium in the sap even at 80% saturation with Mg at 9% and K at 3%. Shit maybe my meter isn't working right. I'm not super confident in them anymore after my nitrate meter crapped out on me after not very frequent use.

I remember seeing some of your analyses and in the past we shoot for similar saturations. Has that changed or are you getting the 1000-3000 ppm readings with around 75% Ca?

Knowledge getting dropped left and right in this thread, I gotta snag one of those K meters, wanted to get calcium but orch last comment changed my mind, thanks guys, I'll b lurking...

I hope people are making the decision to buy a $350 tool just on my word. Stay tuned, I might not have pushed calcium high enough to get the higher sap readings.

The article written by Sister Mary that someone posted earlier demonstrated that one cannot ever recuperate from a Ca deficiency yet you can recuperate from a K deficiency.

This is why it is so critical to have enough space to apply K...

Without P above K, other big problem.

Not enough B, not enough Ca.

Too much N, doesn't matter how much Ca you have. You won't get Ca uptake.

Too much water, you won't get Ca uptake.

LED, you doing like Planting? Top vs bottom of the plant? You running leaf analysis against your sap meter? Which elements?

We used sap meters on asparagus roots and growth point against leaf analysis, little correlation in that crop. Little correlation with yield either. Also, time of day, which side of the plant, etc... numbers were all over the place.

If you all are going to go down this path folks, share a protocol.

Time of day, press method, calibration, etc... start another thread too.

What? You're not going to scold for using the Horiba meters? When its clear that they are functioning properly (no blinking error code) the readings have been consistent this season after weekly readings this past month in three gardens. No correlation with tissue however.

 

[jidoka]

The article written by Sister Mary that someone posted earlier demonstrated that one cannot ever recuperate from a Ca deficiency yet you can recuperate from a K deficiency

This is so true I have gotten to the point where I demand to start with plants on day one of veg if I am going to help. By the time most grows get to flower this battle is lost. Better yet I want your mother plants. Two generations of these down the line with proper Ca and some magic happens.

This is why it is so critical to have enough space to apply K...

Using a meter I never want to see bottom K more than 10% higher than top K and I want to see top drop below bottom before I ever apply more...most likely as a foliar (my fun little experiment last summer taught me that). I guess that is similar to making room for K which is a term my head has never fully understood.

Without P above K, other big problem.

Not enough B, not enough Ca.

Too much N, doesn't matter how much Ca you have. You won't get Ca uptake.

Yup. This comes down to the mobility of N vs Ca. As soon as Ca cant keep up K takes its place and you might as well break out the ipm. It is also why my plants never look as dark green as some others you see...it is on purpose for this reason

Ioo much water, you won't get Ca uptake.

LED, you doing like Planting? Top vs bottom of the plant? You running leaf analysis against your sap meter? Which elements?

We used sap meters on asparagus roots and growth point against leaf analysis, little correlation in that crop. Little correlation with yield either. Also, time of day, which side of the plant, etc... numbers were all over the place.

If you all are going to go down this path folks, share a protocol.

Time of day, press method, calibration, etc... start another thread too.

I don't think I am ready to share a protocol yet. It is kind of in development and I could easily mislead someone at this point. Right now it still takes constant observation and statistical analysis to see if it is working.

I will say don't waste your money on a nitrate meter. K meter is pretty fucking solid. Ca meter appears to be solid once you learn how little K you actually need. PH is good. EC?