Advancing Eco Agriculture, Product Science

[slownickel]

Foots,

This phosphorus is being reported as pounds/acre P2O5. You need to divide by 2 to get to ppms and then divide by 2.29 to get to ppms of P. I love Logan labs...

http://www.agroservicesinternational.com/Education/Fert6.html

His water is scarey. More bicarbonates than calcium. Going to suck up calcium in his soil like a magnet and guess what all that calcium that is being reported is? Available, with that pH water?

And look how good he is doing! Imagine dialing it in using corrected data.

How did Captain Kirk say it? Where no man has gone before..... thanks again PGA!

 

[plantingplants]

So high bicarbonates + Ca + high ph water = unavailable caco3?

Did I get that right ?

Gwillis, I'm envious. Great job. How wide are those pots? What compost is in your coots?

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Gwillis, are you my neighbor? Looks like it, haha.

How did I do so bad with the BAS coots this year. Shit is crashing and burning hard for me and is SUPER inconsistent. I have some big tall plants that have not a single fan leaf left. I'll say for sure I'll never do a coots mix again ever.

 

[plantingplants]

Redthumb, did you get a soil test? How does it colpare to Gwillis'?

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Redthumb, did you get a soil test? How does it colpare to Gwillis'?

Two test with logan over the beginning of the season and a recent one with Spectrum shows where the Logan tests fell short. Logan underestimated Mg and Na and over estimated Ca. BAS saw those tests and told me to apply kelp as a top dress and feed some Mg. Now my Mg is through the roof and and Na is blocking K. Kelp has too much Na and shouldn't be used as the primary source of K. But I was trying my best to follow along the coots/BAS system with organic top dresses bi-weekly, weekly innoculants, lots of various teas. The biology just never kicked in for me and I was continually advised to NOT feed solubles, which was my biggest mistake in hindsight. Let me dust off the old laptop and see if I can post some results.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Here is my 2015 data:

Added lots of powdered gypsum last year before planting, and did a few top dresses of it early in the season, as well as feeding good amounts of CaNO3. There was also a good bit of Azomite added, although I know now there is more Al in there than Ca. I pushed Ca early on, and K, P, and S as we went into flower while continuing to foliar Albion Ca and B. We averaged 9lbs per plant, and had a few in there that were 10+. The soil was a lower CEC, as you can see, and left us lots of room for fertilization, which we seemed to have hit on the head timing-wise. The only downside was the large amount of inputs. I was feeding every other watering at one point, and I was seeking a better and more organic method........

 

[slownickel]

Red,

Post the Spectrum analysis.

Please.

 

[GWillis]

Thanks so much y'all it is really nice to hear from people that know what they are doing! Let me assure you though this year was not all fun and games. My plants are in 400 (6x6 pot/plot) and 600 gal (7.3ishx7.3) compost was a 3rd earthworm, 3rd malibu, 3rd prospector (which is local)..We also did some other minor modifications to Jeremy's base blend but I would have to go back through and look. I made the mistake of putting them halfway in the ground.. the native clay soil doesn't drain well and is inconsistent making the water dosage variation across the garden a horror. We ended of with hemp canker/ damping off on 1/3 the garden that really got going when I was out of town for 2 weeks. After that about 4 times throughout the season i had to go in and cut away on my crowns and sterilize them twice a week with a strong peroxide and then agriphos... a nightmare. We lost one plant..but with a help of an atv sprayer AEA and a shit ton of man hours i was able to bring back like 6 from the brink and they all almost fully rebounded. Though the infection is still present all my cuts on all the plants grew back. I wouldn't blame the soil for this though mostly even though the prospector may have brought in the illness. that being said what finally prompted me to get an additional soil test (which i should have done 2 by now) was that some of my stronger plants that did not get rot or got very little started to look less than excellent and then some started getting PM so i knew I was off the mark. Hope that answers some questions..BTW that plant is an apollo 13 guerrilla arm x snow lotus one off from bodhi.. So glad i saved a pack of that for 2017! Thats def one of my largest plants its about 12x13.
Foothill: Thanks for your support.. your garden looks bomb! and you are a fellow bodhi enthusiast! from what i have heard it seems my Cu deficiency is one of the prime reasons for my infections and I'm sure to at least some extent all my the other micros.. I shouldn't do many more sulphates though to bring them up because of my sulphur levels?.. any recs on what to use to balance my micros in my soil? I have albion multi min but Its meant as a foiler? we do foiler micros heavy as i said but its not enough to really solve the issue it seems.
Slow: Your wisdom is greatly appreciated. Same questions apply .. also in response to our water.. we PH of course to 6.2 -6.5 before we water our irrigation water we use citric acid often or ej catalyst to bring it down.. does that help with the bicarbonate problem? Thank you!

 

[GWillis]

Johnny: Hey neighbor! dude that plant looks awesome.. thats 2015 or this year? what compost did you use in your coot this year?

 

[GWillis]

also i forgot to mention root wise's Microb product really helped us.. its badass.

 

[slownickel]

Slow: Your wisdom is greatly appreciated. Same questions apply .. also in response to our water.. we PH of course to 6.2 -6.5 before we water our irrigation water we use citric acid often or ej catalyst to bring it down.. does that help with the bicarbonate problem? Thank you!

That high sulfur just means you need more P. I use multimineral on the soil as well as the Albion or Baicor (cheaper and better than Albion) on the soil. Drenches work really well. At this point stay on the foliar metals as the plant needs them to stack up pretty. Looks like you are doing a good job.... The low Cu hurts against PM, but is something you need to work on from day 1, not at the end.

Drainage is everything, and even when you have drainage, it can be quickly screwed up with Mg.

Acidifying less than half a point or so works fine and will only help. I am a big fan of citric acid. Normally applications of 2 kgs/ha once a week keeps the farm looking real nice.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

So lets start with the BAS coots with oly's fish compost, mind you Runt, Average, and Healthy are relative terms. My "healthy" Sunset Sherberts are over 10ft tall and the only ones that successfully stretched, but even with tons of Ca foliar, Albion, AEA, and otherwise, I still have fairly hollow stems and weak branching. We were foliar feeding 5-6 times per week at one point. But like slow said, it is just a paint job when the soil is out of wack. The plants labeled as healthy might be doing better due to various factors, including position in the greenhouse, hybrid vigor, etc. but by no means are they at the optimum health I was shooting for. Sherbert can handle stress apparently, much better than Sour Diesel and Chemdawg. Or the soil was mixed inconsistently.

Runt

Average

Healthy

 

[slownickel]

Two test with logan over the beginning of the season and a recent one with Spectrum shows where the Logan tests fell short. Logan underestimated Mg and Na and over estimated Ca. BAS saw those tests and told me to apply kelp as a top dress and feed some Mg. Now my Mg is through the roof and and Na is blocking K. Kelp has too much Na and shouldn't be used as the primary source of K. But I was trying my best to follow along the coots/BAS system with organic top dresses bi-weekly, weekly innoculants, lots of various teas. The biology just never kicked in for me and I was continually advised to NOT feed solubles, which was my biggest mistake in hindsight. Let me dust off the old laptop and see if I can post some results.

Red, taking rec's from salesmen and wannabe agronomists is dangerous. You are 10 steps ahead now and Eyes Wide Open. Congrats. You are learning to read an analysis and you seeing what a real tool it can be if using the right procedures and a good lab.

Sometimes it takes a good kick in the ass to get people to come around. Others just so stuck on their success that they never learn and when the shit finally hits the fan (and it eventually does) they are lost. See people lose millions that way.

 

[slownickel]

Red,

Have you ever seen Mg deficiency from any of these areas?

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Looking back on it, with my source water, we have done nothing but crush it in lighter lower CEC mixes with no added carbonates, only sulfates and phosphates. ANYtime in the past I have tried these peat-based mixes that depend on carbonate buffers, lime or otherwise, I can't get em dialed in. I don't know if it is me or my water here, but it is becoming clear to me what I'm good at and that adding calcium carbonate (and paying a hefty premium for it) when my native soil and irrigation water already shows bicarbonate content is just plain fucking stupid. Seems to me that soils that show high S (and P to keep up with the S) anions can easily over come carbonate anions and therefore overcome any setbacks that a presence of carbonates will have. Too little, too late this year.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Red,

Have you ever seen Mg deficiency from any of these areas?

I did early on actually, but it was simultaneously occuring with a Ca, and K deficiency. Most likely due to just an overall lack of root growth, not an actual Mg deficiency, and the presence of Na.

 

[slownickel]

I did early on actually, but it was simultaneously occuring with a Ca, and K deficiency. Most likely due to just an overall lack of root growth, not an actual Mg deficiency, and the presence of Na.

This is atypical. Low Ca, lack of roots. Everything gets screwed up. Then folk start dumping on all the Mg to compensate.

Where you have less Mg and more Ca in your bases, which isn't much, makes all the difference in the world.

Realize there are many, like the author of the ideal soil, will have you adding sodium. Another best guess.....

Thanks for posting the analysis. It is good for everyone to see.

 

[GWillis]

Red- I have heard that though the oly compost looks good it isn't very balanced both from some one testing water only on a plant and from a soil test... Thats why we went malibu. something to consider.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

Red- I have heard that though the oly compost looks good it isn't very balanced both from some one testing water only on a plant and from a soil test... Thats why we went malibu. something to consider.

We bought 200 yards of the Oly's at almost $300 per yard delivered!!!! They wanted EVEN MORE money for the same mix with Malibu. Went with the Oly's for simple economics and still paid too much. I've seen tests on the Malibu and yes it has much better trace levels than Oly's and less Al, so you'll certainly get more distance out of it in a water only situation. But its still crazy high on CEC, CO3, N, and K. And all that early N and K makes for explosive growth, which wows growers that don't know better, but you end up with hollow growth and insufficient roots and with no further inputs, just water, you will stall just as well, albeit maybe a month after the Oly's.

I should also mention that there are considerable inconstancies. Larger than basketball chunks of unmixed compost and unbroken-down carbon was found in there, huge chunks of rice hulls not mixed in. Some of the totes that didn't get used immediately and stayed closed were growing all sorts of deep rooted grasses and had visible weed contamination in the mix. Quaker grass, common reed, or crab grass came up like crazy and it was encouraged to just continue mowing it in. Turns out those grasses are major copper and zinc bioaccumulators and should of been pulled asap. I don't think that came in the Oly's compost.

 

[slownickel]

We bought 200 yards of the Oly's at almost $300 per yard delivered!!!! They wanted EVEN MORE money for the same mix with Malibu. Went with the Oly's for simple economics and still paid too much. I've seen tests on the Malibu and yes it has much better trace levels than Oly's and less Al, so you'll certainly get more distance out of it in a water only situation. But its still crazy high on CEC, CO3, N, and K. And all that early N and K makes for explosive growth, which wows growers that don't know better, but you end up with hollow growth and insufficient roots and with no further inputs, just water, you will stall just as well, albeit maybe a month after the Oly's.

Red,

The hollow stems are boron. You are low in B in all those samples. Ideally you would have about 2.3 to 2.6 ppm of B in those reports. Note that your better sample had a smudgen of more B in it.