100% male with feminized seeds?

[GMT]

If I super glue a BMW badge to my Saab, is it now a BMW? Or are the internals what counts? I could call myself a woman, but my internals won't make me female. Woman and female are different. Woman is a role, female is a definition. The definition tells us the internal contents. Is it fair to race a Ferrari against a fiat? They are made by the same company. Fairness should be the aim of the Olympics. Not wokeness. You don't allow dopers on the grounds of inclusion, but some of you want to watch men beating up women. I really don't know if you're woke or sadistic.

 

[PetePrice]

Genetics is a science that is still very unknown, and even more so in Cannabis.
It is full of exceptions, they are very difficult to explain, so almost all studies conclude with phrases like "more research is necessary."

Thousands of PCRs would have to be done to find just one case. Even so, there are some studies that address this type of inconsistency:

Why not XY? Male monoecious sexual phenotypes challenge the female monoecious paradigm in Cannabis sativa L.

In any case, the feminized industry makes it clear, 0.1 - 1% can be male, and this is amply evidenced in the forums.

It could be a chromosomal mutation, who knows.

First there are the facts and then there are the theories. The theory has to be adapted to the facts, and not the other way around.

No not males at all. How many have them tested for an Y? and its like many haven't known about sub dioecious populations wtf.... another year same shit.

That study is nothing new but what hemp growers/breeders have always stated ie in their view monoecy reverts to dioecy (yet it came from herms to monoecy to dioecy but!!)

They even state this in the abstract -

The DNA of 210 monoecious plants was used for PCR analysis with the male-associated markers MADC2 and SCAR323. All monoecious plants showed female amplification patterns.


Maybe their plant isn't monoecious?

Abstract from another paper refed in that one -

Five monoecious and one dioecious cultivars were grown in controlled conditions under several photoperiods. The monoecy degree of 194 monoecious plants was recorded at each node by a figure ranging from 0 (male flowers only) to 6 (female flowers only). The genome size of 55 plants was determined by flow cytometry. The DNA of 115 monoecious plants was screened with the male-associated marker MADC2. The monoecy degree varied significantly among monoecious cultivars from 3.36 ± 2.28 in ‘Uso 31’ to 5.70 ± 0.81 in the most feminised ‘Epsilon 68’. The variation of monoecy degree among cultivars remained consistent across trials despite a significant “cultivar × trial” interaction and partly agreed with their earliness. The genome size of monoecious plants (1.791 ± 0.017 pg) was not different from that of females (1.789 ± 0.019 pg) but significantly lower than that of males (1.835 ± 0.019 pg). MADC2 was absent from all monoecious plants. These results strongly support that cultivars of monoecious hemp have the XX constitution and that their sex expression has a genetic basis.

What do you go with? the anomaly or the mean?

They state this - The IPK_CAN_36 accession is of an unknown origin, and phylogenetic studies do not group it with other European and Asian accessions from the IPK collection

so how would they know it's monoecious? They have an intersexed plant that's it just like many people have seen in their grows from dioecious (or sub) populations.

 

[mudballs]

Holy shit pete knows shit, he scares me

 

[GMT]

Welcome back Pete

 

[kendermag]

No not males at all. How many have them tested for an Y? and its like many haven't known about sub dioecious populations wtf.... another year same shit.

How many banks or breeders have tested their parents? Who says they haven't used XY specimens with very feminine habits...

In that study, the only thing that catches my attention is that there is no evidence why monoecious individuals necessarily have to be XX.
Monoecious hemp is XX because they are all descendants of Fibrimon.

But as they indicate, it could well be bred from XY individuals with feminine habits.

As I told GMT, I don't feel like continuing to discuss this matter, everyone thinks what they want.... my greatest mentor told me that it was possible, himself created a variety based on this premise, and I have decided to believe that this way It is... just as I believe that the theory of sexual determinism of cannabis is not definitive, due to all those inconsistencies that still exist... as you said, the studies by Bocsa, Venturi and others, on the appearance of true males and females pure in monoecious cultures, they do not support this theory.

 

[PetePrice]

How many banks or breeders have tested their parents? Who says they haven't used XY specimens with very feminine habits...

In that study, the only thing that catches my attention is that there is no evidence why monoecious individuals necessarily have to be XX.
Monoecious hemp is XX because they are all descendants of Fibrimon.

But as they indicate, it could well be bred from XY individuals with feminine habits.

As I told GMT, I don't feel like continuing to discuss this matter, everyone thinks what they want.... my greatest mentor told me that it was possible, himself created a variety based on this premise, and I have decided to believe that this way It is... just as I believe that the theory of sexual determinism of cannabis is not definitive, due to all those inconsistencies that still exist... as you said, the studies by Bocsa, Venturi and others, on the appearance of true males and females pure in monoecious cultures, they do not support this theory.

Well if we are talking about plants from drug cannabis they should not be compared to hemp, its been put up here before about the percentage that will show as full on males yet this doesn't make them males, Just like if I grow tits it doesn't make me female.

Well you certainly seem to be believing what you want, where is this variety you talk of? what is it an intersex line with freaky ass males? who wants it? there's no point being a shithouse you can believe what you like but it doesn't make it reality, but as it is your believes that are going against the current proven norm then it's on you to prove it and convince us otherwise isn't it? See I prefer to friggin kill plants like that.
Just because you have decided does not make it so does it? as that really is like the trans movement of just believing something makes it so... or as it used to be called delusional.

 

[kendermag]

Well if we are talking about plants from drug cannabis they should not be compared to hemp, its been put up here before about the percentage that will show as full on males yet this doesn't make them males, Just like if I grow tits it doesn't make me female.

Well you certainly seem to be believing what you want, where is this variety you talk of? what is it an intersex line with freaky ass males? who wants it? there's no point being a shithouse you can believe what you like but it doesn't make it reality, but as it is your believes that are going against the current proven norm then it's on you to prove it and convince us otherwise isn't it? See I prefer to friggin kill plants like that.
Just because you have decided does not make it so does it? as that really is like the trans movement of just believing something makes it so... or as it used to be called delusional.

Bocsa, Sengbush, Shaffer and others literally cite PURE MALES appearing in pure monoecious cultures (XX)... Do you think these people didn't know what they were talking about?

A return from monoecious to dioecious crops in just 2-3 generations if those few pure males that appear sporadically are not eliminated.

We are talking about experts in the field, and not charlatans like you and me.

If you talk to any serious breeder with a lot of experience, you will see that they talk to you about the same thing in that 0.1% in feminized seeds.

About 12-15 years ago, in my area there was an absurd fever to improve a well-known clone (kritikal bilbo) that came from a Critical Mass by Mr. Nice.

In my association they selected several specimens of the S1 offspring of this clone, but it was not possible to make an S2 because they did not produce pollen with STS. So they pollinated some of these S1 with the little pollen that the original clone produced, and these seeds were in circulation for several years.
Amazing plants came out of this batch, with some surprising rarities, such as double and triple seedlings from a single seed, approximately in a ratio of 1%. And at least 2 pure males also came out among many thousands of plants... and very few cases of bananas


A well-known breeder in my area kept this male and crossed him with one of the S1 females (or maybe with the original one), and the result was normal 50/50 male/female plants.
Only a few have tried these seeds, but no one has any doubts seeing the homogeneity of their offspring, and the sexual stability of both genders.

This is just one case, but it is only one among many stories.
I think that extreme feminization puts some kind of pressure that unleashes survival mechanisms, maybe chromosome mutation, spontaneous polyploidy,
apomictic processes, or who knows what.

 

[kro-magnon]

Bocsa, Sengbush, Shaffer and others literally cite PURE MALES appearing in pure monoecious cultures (XX)... Do you think these people didn't know what they were talking about?

A return from monoecious to dioecious crops in just 2-3 generations if those few pure males that appear sporadically are not eliminated.

We are talking about experts in the field, and not charlatans like you and me.

If you talk to any serious breeder with a lot of experience, you will see that they talk to you about the same thing in that 0.1% in feminized seeds.

About 12-15 years ago, in my area there was an absurd fever to improve a well-known clone (kritikal bilbo) that came from a Critical Mass by Mr. Nice.

In my association they selected several specimens of the S1 offspring of this clone, but it was not possible to make an S2 because they did not produce pollen with STS. So they pollinated some of these S1 with the little pollen that the original clone produced, and these seeds were in circulation for several years.
Amazing plants came out of this batch, with some surprising rarities, such as double and triple seedlings from a single seed, approximately in a ratio of 1%. And at least 2 pure males also came out among many thousands of plants... and very few cases of bananas


A well-known breeder in my area kept this male and crossed him with one of the S1 females (or maybe with the original one), and the result was normal 50/50 male/female plants.
Only a few have tried these seeds, but no one has any doubts seeing the homogeneity of their offspring, and the sexual stability of both genders.

This is just one case, but it is only one among many stories.
I think that extreme feminization puts some kind of pressure that unleashes survival mechanisms, maybe chromosome mutation, spontaneous polyploidy,
apomictic processes, or who knows what.

This is some interesting info, did they DNA test the male from the Critical Bilbo S1 seeds? I know two XX should logiacally produce only XX progeny but I don't discard the possibility of a genetic mutation created by the need to reproduce. I don't have enough knowledge in biology to expand just a thought.

 

[Mithridate]

Loving the conversation gents

I'm deeply interested in this facet of breeding as when I did a seed increase on an old line last year, I got 139 females out of 140 plants. A few of those seeds came from a previous smaller seed increase and plants from that batch grew balls at the seventh node (?)

I've yet to test progeny...

 

[PetePrice]

Round and round we go this has been covered in other threads, they aren't males, tests have been done by scientists/researchers they found that these types that show as males if not removed stay and become more prolific, I will try and find the paper from another thread that shows this.

Just because those you mentioned years ago thought they had males without any testing does not make it so. I seem to remember they couldn't rule out contamination.

 

[kro-magnon]

Round and round we go this has been covered in other threads, they aren't males, tests have been done by scientists/researchers they found that these types that show as males if not removed stay and become more prolific, I will try and find the paper from another thread that shows this.

Just because those you mentioned years ago thought they had males without any testing does not make it so. I seem to remember they couldn't rule out contamination.

So for you it is not possible at all to see a genetic mutation on the chromosomes?
It exists in human, there is some male who are XX if you DNA test them and some females who are XY, it is the result of a a very rare genetic mutation and it is documented in medicine litterature. I know plants and human have nothing in common in their DNA but genetic mutation can exist on all living organisms.

 

[mudballs]

It's so variable this chromosome stuff, genes, snippets of code being mixed...yet we know what is being mixed contains sex genes that can not be removed. Something says "we don't need no stinking Y chromosome" ...how tf can it go from dioecious to monoecious...dafuq..that says something

 

[PetePrice]

So for you it is not possible at all to see a genetic mutation on the chromosomes?
It exists in human, there is some male who are XX if you DNA test them and some females who are XY, it is the result of a a very rare genetic mutation and it is documented in medicine litterature. I know plants and human have nothing in common in their DNA but genetic mutation can exist on all living organisms.

Are you talking about de la Chapelle syndrome? if so this is because of SRY gene and crossover on PAR and this happens in the plant world but they are only males phenotypically just like these plants are.

 

[PetePrice]

I suggest you look at why Dj shorts males are often sterile.. .theres a clue

 

[kro-magnon]

Are you talking about de la Chapelle syndrome? if so this is because of SRY gene and crossover on PAR and this happens in the plant world but they are only males phenotypically just like these plants are.

I don't remeber the name of the syndrome for humans, I learned about this those last days following this discussion on plant's sex. You obviously know a lot more about biology than me. I have no idea if a plant could in reality change her chromosomes, in theory and logic, no but we can have some surprise sometimes by discovering an unknown mechanism.
The biggest problem being the lack of DNA testing, if the plants showing male traits had been properly tested when they showed up the discussion would be over for good, DNA tests don't care of your feelings.

 

[mudballs]

I don't remeber the name of the syndrome for humans, I learned about this those last days following this discussion on plant's sex. You obviously know a lot more about biology than me. I have no idea if a plant could in reality change her chromosomes, in theory and logic, no but we can have some surprise sometimes by discovering an unknown mechanism.
The biggest problem being the lack of DNA testing, if the plants showing male traits had been properly tested when they showed up the discussion would be over for good, DNA tests don't care of your feelings.

https://www.quora.com/How-do-locus-and-allele-differ

If these plants can go from dioecious to monoecious then that means sex genes mixed successfully..arguably a chromosomal crossover occured when it shouldn't be able to...so other governing factors we dont understand fully yet may be at play more than simply XY is good and only thing we should expect...maybe not

 

[kro-magnon]

https://www.quora.com/How-do-locus-and-allele-differ

If these plants can go from dioecious to monoecious then that means sex genes mixed successfully..arguably a chromosomal crossover occured when it shouldn't be able to...so other governing factors we dont understand fully yet may be at play more than simply XY is good and only thing we should expect...maybe not

Might be what i meant with real scientific words I don't fully master in a foreign language and my own, as I said I lack some knowledge in biology(science in general) I studied other fields when I was still a student.

 

[mudballs]

Might be what i meant with real scientific words I don't fully master in a foreign language and my own, as I said I lack some knowledge in biology(science in general) I studied other fields when I was still a student.

Don't sweat it, we're very close to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle for cannabis...almost to the point of saying "fk it we can't know..just grow and breed and see what happens, then record results and move on" this shit is beyond weird

 

[mudballs]

I saw this possibility long ago when i started reading genetic shit...one day it clicked "dude, there is no limit to what these can do"

 

[mudballs]

It goes back to that Self-Compatible thing i mentioned, i cant stress enough the importance of that in these discussions.

Cannabis does not have this mechanism.