WTF is w/feminized genetics,

[Tom Hill]

do you have/know of any papers that back that up in Cannabis or any other related species that i'd be able to read?

DB, Gettit's comments should be taken as and have been written as "in general" but he left that bit out. A breeder of corn might have that same far away look in their eyes, hahh. Anyway, those comments do not hold true for every individual selfed nor every line either. -Tom

 

[funkymonkey]

Hi Tom, would you mind going into further detail about this lack of vigour and general deterioration that getit commented on, it's something I'm very interested in.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Stagger, the whole root of you understanding this thing depends on you understanding that when a feminized seed plant shows male stamen, it is because it is expressing the intersex gene. It is not being changed into a male, it is only showing male parts, and even viable male parts that spit pollen and everything, but they are NOT males.
There is no Y chromosome existing in the genetic map of the mating of two females. And as a consequence there can be NO males in their progeny. Only plants that are full hermaphrodite or posses the intersex trait, be it real easy to trigger, or buried way down deep and recessive, will show male stamen.

If you have feminized seeds that show lots of male parts, the main reason for it is that the breeder did not select the parents properly, and forced a hermie prone plant, or pollinated a hermie prone plant, or perhaps both.
But never was anything changed to a male from a femmed seed.

When two plants mate, each of them brings a genetic map to the table. These two maps of chromosomes show exactly what each individual plant is made up of genetically. When the mating occurs, the two plants maps get combined like throwing them in a bag and shaking them up...then they all recombine in various ways and the result is brand new genetic maps in each seed. The chromosomes of each plant are in ten pairs, and one of those pairs of chromosomes determines the sex of the plant. That particular set of chromosomes (I have read that it is the eighth set in the spiral) is either a XX (female) pair or a XY (male) pair.
If both parents have XX chromosomes at the eighth set, or sex determining pair of chromosomes, then there can be no male happen. There is no Y that is needed to create a male.

The things that cause a female to show male parts, or the intersex gene, can manifest itself it different ways I believe. But for the most part this intersex expression where a female shows male parts, is triggered outside of the genes. It is at a boundary area of the gene that deals with stress responses due to chemical imbalances and enviro stresses.

 

[funkymonkey]

But never was anything changed to a male from a femmed seed.

There's a guy called Rockster who reckons a load of cuttings from S1 seeds spontaneously turned male on him, I call BS but he is adamant that some of the cuttings have turned into males.

What is it about smoking pot that makes some people full of shit? lol

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Pot has nothing to do with it. Non smokers full of shit abound.

I too have been trying to wrap my brain around the loss of vigor of a true selfing, and I think it has to do with the lack of material during meiosis.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

There's a guy called Rockster who reckons a load of cuttings from S1 seeds spontaneously turned male on him, I call BS but he is adamant that some of the cuttings have turned into males.

What is it about smoking pot that makes some people full of shit? lol

i'd say he's mixed up the pollen he used. or someone near by is open pollinating and it's leaked into his grow room and wrecked his stuff. i just don't get how anyone thinks that Female + Female can = Male.... you can't mate 2 lions and get a tiger.

 

[funkymonkey]

The guy is adamant, but to me, it's impossible so either he's full of shit or there was a mix-up. He is adamant there can be no mix-up so I smell BS. Probably he just wants to be able to claim he has 100% pure Cheese seeds in regular rather than femmed form. Waste of time if you ask me, it's just more Skunk#1, go buy a pack of the original from Seedsman FFS.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

if that's his attitude it's probably more that he's biased towards wanting there to be an issue with fem seeds so through the mix up he's just going to stick with FEMINIZATION = SATAN attitude and no manner of logic will convince him otherwise. if you do the math it's impossible to get male seeds from feminization, hence the name feminization / feminized seeds.... the male sex chromosomes needed aren't there because no male has taken part in the cross... that's just the way it is.

 

[funkymonkey]

The guy isn't against feminisation at all, he uses selfing as part of his breeding work, I just think he's trying to pull a fast one.

I agree with what you say, no Y chromosone, no possibility of a male.

 

[JackTheGrower]

There's a guy called Rockster who reckons a load of cuttings from S1 seeds spontaneously turned male on him, I call BS but he is adamant that some of the cuttings have turned into males.

What is it about smoking pot that makes some people full of shit? lol

I can second that.

Let me explain.

I have a Hermaphrodite seed plant. It starts female, goes male flowers and then back to female flowers on one cola.

Mind ya crossing it with a three feminized strains/plants resulted in all female seeds and no intersex expressions in two of the three.
One was Sativa strain and it did copy the Hermaphrodite's flowering style .
So being a novice medical person I grew out those female seeds for 6 years. I also lived way up in the foothills so it was perfect that I didn't have to drive so far or at all for that matter.

Now I made some S1's of the Hermaphrodite and grew them and crossed that with the all female plants and I had 5 all male offspring this season.

So I am not stating scientific proof here I am saying I have seen it too..

 

[toryscum]

There is a loss of vigor in the First generation. (S1) Some people do not notice this, but its happening.

The leaves become smaller, the plants grow slower, the flowers are smaller, the germination is erratic, albinos and mutants arise.

In S2, there are sterile plants and many very feeble/weak ones.

By S3 its difficult to even get a population to germinate together.

This happens because cannabis is NOT an inbreeding species. It is an outcrosser. It needs to be heterogenous and heterozygous to be vigorous.

Of course, when you say this to people who THINK selfing is a good way to make seeds for growing, they get a far away look in their eyes......

I can agree with heterosis/hybrid vigor as its the opposite of inbreeding and Shull has shown us this with corn. that said and with regards to whats posted above with SELFING, i'm presuming you are stating that the generations which have been selfed are true to the meaning ie an individual that is selfed and not a population etc?

ALL that is happening is the end outcome is reached quicker, theres ways round lots of things with regard to vigor etc as you know.

Or are you implying that with it being an obligate outcrosser it has a bad SI ? (self
incompatibility)

Its a tool that serves a purpose. but yes you are right that cannabis is an outcrosser thus the end goal for any breeder not creating an IBL is to produce a good HYBrid.

regards.

 

[gettitreal]

funkymonkey:"Are you sure selfing reduces yield? Is that something you have experience of - I mean, have you grown a mother plant several times, then selfed that plant and grown out a bunch of the S1s or is it just something you read in a book?"

>>>I have seen it myself. I have done exactly what you describe and observed it personally. AND the books Ive read always have confirmed the phenomenon of inbreeding reducing yield in outcrossing species like cannabis.

funkymonkey:"If selfing for several gens has all the negatives that getitreal lists then it can't be of any use to remove intersex because it would just be introduced a load of undesirables in order to remove one other undesirable."

>>> Oh, selfing is a great way to cull intersex alleles. The close inbreeding of selfing causes these alleles to recombine and/or become fixed which causes them to immediately surface in progeny. Thus, most S1s of drug cannabis produce at least some overtly intersexual offspring.
I am of the belief that some offspring are so intersexual they appear to be MALE, -early-on-, but will not produce XY offspring. This is something that NEEDS to be shown, but I havent heard of anyone doing this work yet.

I think its a viable strategy to have inbred parent lines,(derived from selfing and only useful as 'Breeder seed') which are then testcrossed to other similarly produced inbred lines, for the sole purpose of creating highly vigorous F1 Hybrid seedlines.

darwin'sbulldog:"do you have/know of any papers that back that up in Cannabis or any other related species that i'd be able to read?"

>> I dont have any specific excerpts, but I think its common knowledge that:

A) Cannabis is an outcrossing species.

B) It is also well understood that heterogeneous and heterozygous species carry many deleterious alleles('the genetic load'); This is also true of cannabis, evidenced by what happens when it undergoes even one cycle of severe inbreeding.(mutants, albinos, intersexuals, reduced vigor in multiple areas). Inbreeders have purged their genetic loads and can sustain continued inbreeding. Cannabis does not sustain continued rigid inbreedings.

C) Cultivar improvement on heterogeneous and heterozygous outcrossers like corn and cannabis is focused on heterosis, or 'hybrid vigor', which , yes, is the opposite of inbreeding. Cultivar improvement strategies for outcrossers are different than ones suited to inbreeding species. In outcrossers, special attention is given to maintaining genetic diversity during the breeding program, which usually includes the matings of groups, families and/or populations, and specifically not of single individuals.

 

[toryscum]

C) Cultivar improvement on heterogeneous and heterozygous outcrossers like corn and cannabis is focused on heterosis, or 'hybrid vigor', which , yes, is the opposite of inbreeding. Cultivar improvement strategies for outcrossers are different than ones suited to inbreeding species. In outcrossers, special attention is given to maintaining genetic diversity during the breeding program, which usually includes the matings of groups, families and/or populations, and specifically not of single individuals.

thanks for the clarity.

I think its a viable strategy to have inbred parent lines,(derived from selfing and only useful as 'Breeder seed') which are then testcrossed to other similarly produced inbred lines, for the sole purpose of creating highly vigorous F1 Hybrid seedlines.

thats my aim, though I have no problem with S1s passed around if the plant used in the 1st place is good (highly stress resistant).

I'd like to pick your brains with regard to stress tests for plants... I had a plant that I thought was quite decent but it responded with nanners to aphid stress, the plant had been reversed the S1s didn't show any intersex plants but the clones from the mother plant threw out the nanners when with the aphids, is there a way to test for this? or is it trial and error?

Thanks

Ps. Thanks for educating.

 

[englishrick]

>>> Oh, selfing is a great way to cull intersex alleles. The close inbreeding of selfing causes these alleles to recombine and/or become fixed which causes them to immediately surface in progeny. Thus, most S1s of drug cannabis produce at least some overtly intersexual offspring.

I am of the belief that some offspring are so intersexual they appear to be MALE, -early-on-, but will not produce XY offspring. This is something that NEEDS to be shown, but I havent heard of anyone doing this work yet.

@getitreal,,,,i know of someone who used a "monoecious-female" to make seeds beffore it truned fully female,,,[you know how they do],,,,,it reacted like any other dioecious x monoecious cross,,,but i bet you won believe me,,,,add me as a friend bro


yeh,,i agree 100%,,,,,i forgot to mention this,,,,1 of the main problems with S1 seed is that any intersexed problems surface in the imidiate progeny,,,no wonder everyone is having issues with S1,,,,,,

i allways plan to go to S2,,,,i expect the intersexed issues to suface in the S1,,,,,selecting an S1 without intersexed problems it the key,,,then you know every S2 is almost free from problems

 

[toryscum]

So using selfing to stabilise a line is not a good idea then? Sounds to me like making anything beyond S1s is a bad idea.

It's a shame that most of the people with knowledge that are posting in this thread have 'book learning' and don't have the hands-on experience of doing breeding work with femming techniques, but with the nastiness that keeps surfacing, it's easy to see why guys with the actual experience of this work would be unlikely to join the discussion.

Can't help yourself can you indifferent... snide digs for snide reasons, without theory you have no concept to put into practice! read the books then put it into practice.. ie arm yourself with as much knowledge/ammo as you can, it will give you a multi pronged attack. least I don't and have never sold seeds like you have.. I applaud TH for keeping IBL's going as best he can.. its something I aspire to do but it takes time and lots not just one breeding practice/strategy. I STILL have lots to learn and put into practice but I fully intend to do it. However I am against seeds sales for my own reasons.

 

[englishrick]

i wouldnt trust myself to sell seeds without full genomic testing being done,,,,,,,but once the genomic testing is done,,,why not?,,,id rather have tested seeds drown the untested seeds

 

[PhenoMenal]

Amazing the passion in some of the posts in this thread. I guess that's what happens when strong minded opinions clash with experience ... ah well, their loss

 

[funkymonkey]

i wouldnt trust myself to sell seeds without full genomic testing being done,,,,,,,but once the genomic testing is done,,,why not?,,,id rather have tested seeds drown the untested seeds

Can you explain what exactly genomic testing would entail?

 

[englishrick]

through crosses and self fertilization, segregation ratios can be observed,,,the observation is the key,,,like they say "the proff is in the pudding" ,,,,

but, stability is 1 thing ,,,extreem quality is another,,,,stability and quality dont allways go hand in hand,,,sometimes we lose too mutch when looking for unifomity

 

[funkymonkey]

I guess as long as the killer pheno or should that be specimen can be found in every 5 pack, it's uniform enough. I remember the days when there were killers in every pack, oh how seed quality has declined in the mainstream since!