Whats up with my roots?

[Granger2]

IRA,

I've been fighting them too. I guess that makes us root aphid bro's. I've done a crap load of research here and on the web. It looks like the best thing is to inoculate the medium with beneficial nematodes.

I read on a university site that flushing with insecticide soap helps to remove the waxy crap the root aphids leave on the roots that hampers the healing process. I flushed with Safer's Soap, but I wouldn't recommend using the 5 Tbl/gal strength like I did. Use one or two Tbl/gal.

On a previous crop, drenching with Azamax did the job, at least to get recovery, and then 2-3 months till harvest.

Here's what I will do in the future if they flare up. First, drench with Azadriactin, then several days later, drench with 1 or two TBL/gal of Safer's, followed the next day with a good flushing. Then, a re-inoculating with something like Subculture M & B and beneficial nematodes. These are the same ones you buy on a sponge to spray your yard to fight fleas, ticks, etc.

The last flush, above, is to remove the soap and azamax, which may harm the nematodes. The todes will persist in the soil, laying their eggs in the host pest where they will hatch, eat their fill, then burst out of the pest's abdomen, Alien style. They'll attack any soil insects, like Fungus Gnats. On a University site they had photos of dead root aphids laying there with holes blasted from the inside out of their abdomens.

Make sure you use fresh todes. They're pretty cheap from nurseries, etc. or you can get them from Buglogical or Nature's Control. Good luck, bro. -granger

 

[cyat]

Inreply
I had the same kinda thing happen to me. I fixed it by switching to soil, not goin back to coco and runoff dirt plants are healthier for me. i also bottom water like bobhope. zero waste and simple!

I used chemicals before, but know I'm using a splash of mighty wash in my feed bucket. sm90 will help heal and protect too.

they dont take hold in my soil as easy.

sunshine mix #4 with one bag napa 8820, some powdered veg and flower nutes( just for extra richness) this has outperformed coco, and all the bag soils i tried. pencil sized stems in tiny cups.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Granger2 sorry to here you are in the battle. Sounds like you got yourself a nice Organic Battle Plan or OBP! Go get em. I like your plan for flower time as some of the chemicals recommended are just that, chemicals. For Veg I am going with imid as most of the reports i come across, give favorable reviews of its efficacy, and i can attest to that from a past experience. I think i will also rotate in a few azatrol soaks and also take your suggestion on the Safers. Multiple weapons are suggested.
This entire experience has been a TRIP so far. I started a thread about this problem 5+ months ago. I searched for Root Aphids on two separate occasions. Concluded it was some type of pythium and have been fighting that ever since.
After examining the roots i mistook the waxy residue for a mold. At first i thought it may actually be bugs all over the roots, but i stared at them for a long time and it never moved. This shit is ALL OVER the roots, covering most of the root mass on some plants. I am thinking the numbers of these things in my space must be near a million.
I cant find a good picture online of what the white dots look like all over my roots. The pictures i find online show big patches of white, visible with the naked eye. My roots are covered in little white excretions that need to be magnified to really see. Is this similar to your experience? Not root hairs, boy do i miss those...

Cyat glad to here you are winning/won the battle. I am going to stick it out with coco now that i know what it is i am battling, and hope for the best and get my ass on the offensive. These frucks have had it easy up until now.

 

[cyat]

good luck with the imid, didnt do shit for me, plants dont like it either.
sm90 helps alot with the slime and rot
good luck

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Searched the thread, nobody has mentioned Diatomaceous Earth ? Threads on IC about how that stops all root fly/bugs by slicing them as they pass. Those little fuckers can really screw up plants, it could be the basic source of your problem ?

 

[blockhead411]

Wow I read the whole thread. Thanks for letting us all know what the problem was. I seem to remember that you tried Imid once before. Or maybe I am mistaken. Im wondering if a simple layer of perlite on the top would help. Im not too familiar with root aphids, and havent had them, but I have had gnats. The Imid worked great for those. Now I plan on using Imid as a precautionary measure. Sounds like a real pain in the ass what you went through!

Making the switch to coco after being a Sunshine 4 grower for years. I dont like hand watering, so a drip setup sounds good, plus when they get bigger, it seems like multiple daily feedings is the way to go. Just going to use Canna products with Drip Clean. I always try to keep things simple, like alot of people, went through buying all kinds of things I dont think the plants really needed. The benefical bacteria does seem like a good idea though. I thought coco had some already. Looking forward to trying coco though, even though reading this made me a little nervous! haha Hope it all works out.

 

[Ptone]

I talked to the Mighty Wash rep at the Long Beach Grow Expo and he will send you a sample if you just ask. He was explaining that with most pestisides especially organic ones, they are neurotoxins and the insects detect them before they die and as a countermeasure they lay as many eggs as possible. But with water there is no detecting.
I hear nothing but good things through from the research I've done. Did I mention its just water holding a frequency? You cant overfeed. In fact you yourself can drink it without ill effects . He actually took a shot of it to prove it haha

I'm no way affiliated with them but I do recommend you email them and try it for yourself.

 

[Granger2]

I emailed the Mighty Wash people. I think it may be a great solution for mites, and possibly for root aphids, but the cost would be prohibitive for soil drenching. I'm waiting for his reply. Thanks for the tip, Ptone. -granger

 

[inreplyavalon]

Cyat its pretty funny how we now have too opposing experiences. I have used sm-90 as a preventative in my res for a few years. Always had deliciously white roots, so never stopped using it. When i started having root problems from the aphid damage, the sm-90 did not help at all. I think the oil in it actually just makes the roots dry slower when i wanted them to dry/drink faster.
Also i have used Imid a few times and never seen it affect the plants much. i have only used it on plants that were a little infected, relatively healthy, and they did not skip a beat. I'll bet the plants can handle it better the more health they start with. I think our different experiences just illustrates how growing is as much an art as it is a science. So many pieces coming together, no snowflakes the same...

Chaos i am with you, i believe it is the source of the problems. I will know this next round depending on how my ladies develop. I am confident that knowing my enemy will assure defeat/control of said enemy. I am scare of hell of DE as i dont like fine powders that can harm me if inhaled. You know when the sun's rays are at a perfect angle to see all the dust in a room...i imagine DE floating as well. Though it sure would be nice to slice them fookers up.

Blockhead don't be shy about the coco, you will rock it. Easy peasy. If i can give you one tip, keep an eye on your runoff EC and feed lightly during the transition. Those two recent changes in my garden have proven invaluable.
I have not used imid in a few years, so these plants never got any. Personally i think imid is a little extreme for fungus gnats, as i have never had a problem wiping them out with Bti (mosquito dunks). Root aphids on the other hand are not fazed by the bti in my experience. Either way, keep doing whats working and if i can ever help you out with a coco tip let me know.

Ptone thanks for bringing that product to my attention, never heard of it before. Interesting technique they claim to use to fight pests. Why does the water change the frequency of the medium/pest and not the other way around? I admittedly know next to nothing about the frequencies of different things.

well some ladies have all together stopped growing, and others are cannibalizing their leaves, and still some are finishing strong. Tough to see plants just slam on the breaks in the middle of flower but i knew it was a possibility from the start.

I sure do hope someone in my shoes finds a miracle in this thread someday.

 

[ChaosCatalunya]

Good point about the fine powder there buddy, unlikely to be too good for you....

Going to have more of a read up and think about solutions.

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Wow. What's up brother man? You're not the only one who's getting nailed by this funky stuff. I've been in the process of switching over to coco for a while now. Been doing pro-mix or self contained soils for a couple of years, and pulled three perfectly healthy "tester" plants out of coco before making any big changes.

So, a few months ago I went ahead and made the big changes, dumped my soil, and moved everything into coco, running Dyna-Gro nutrients. Well, everything in the run cranked out nicely for a week, and then everything went to absolute fucking shit. I just assumed that I had fucked up and overfed them or some such, and began the process of nailing down the issue. Nothing doing. They respond to nothing.

Your photos and experiences match mine so closely that it kind of worries me. The pattern of die back, how the side roots will grow, the white shit growing on the rotten (but not ROT like we are used to) roots. I wonder if you're a mile high, or round about those parts? PM me, because I'm awfully curious if this could be an enviromental threat of some sort.

First symptom was a total halt of growth. Then the root die off began. Watering cycle makes no difference. Feed strength, ratio, and volume make absolutely no difference. Up potting did nothing, no results from H2O or bleach. No results from adding perlite to the mix. Playing with the PH made no noticeable result. Switching to GH 6/9 made no difference. Switching to Canna made no difference. Imidocloprid made no difference either, went ahead and gave them a treatment in case I was missing something. Nope.

Thought that maybe I had a toxicity issue in my water source, or something. R/O has made no difference. Thought about bad batches/brands of coco. Botanicare from a new source, Canna, no difference after transplant. They'll fill out the larger space for a day or two, and then the rot comes back. I even replaced my goddamned PH and TDS meters.

It's left me finally stumped. I've been fighting this shit for 3 months, and they're still just over a foot tall, with minimal branching. After three months of work, running four separate control groups.

The only thing that has made any difference was transplanting back to a living soil mix. The biological activity seems to be working on it. I'm fucking mad about it, I switched to coco for a reason, and having my hand forced back to soil really irks me. But at this point, I'm just trying to save my genetics before they are permanently stressed, or outright lost for good.

If anyone knows what's up with this shit, then definitely speak up. I've diagnosed plenty of nutrient/pest/pathogen problems, in gardens far more diverse than the average grow room, but this has been proven to be beyond me.

I have the same problem now...I had aphids and wiped them out. Haven't seen one for well over 14 days. Now I have a couple of plants with the same things described in this thread. White things on roots and browning roots. Might go back to organics if no one figures this out. I will go ahead and add more azamax and pyrethrins dunk, but I wonder if this is really aphids? No maggots or flyers just brown roots and weird round white things on the roots or some plants. Sam has said everything that I have experienced too.

 

[inreplyavalon]

I have the same problem now...I had aphids and wiped them out. Haven't seen one for well over 14 days. Now I have a couple of plants with the same things described in this thread. White things on roots and browning roots. Might go back to organics if no one figures this out. I will go ahead and add more azamax and pyrethrins dunk, but I wonder if this is really aphids? No maggots or flyers just brown roots and weird round white things on the roots or some plants. Sam has said everything that I have experienced too.

Are you growing the same plants that had the aphids? My guess is that they're still around, or its the damage that was already done. The little white bumps all over the roots i am starting to believe is the residue the aphids leave behind. In a pot only a few aphids can fook sheet up

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Yea same plants infestation was extremely minor when I first discovered them and I doused them with 4 different pesticides. 2 of them are systemics 2 are contact killers. Did it twice and they disappeared for the first time completely. I have checked the pots every day have seen nothing...

I am hoping it is damage already done...Some plants are great but 2 of 50~ are just not right at all.

 

[inreplyavalon]

The way the aphids seem to damage the root is different than a standard rot/fungus as far as i can tell. They seem to enter a purgatory state where they continue to live, longer than with other issues, but dont do shit as far as uptake. The toxin injected into the root must have something to do with it.
I'm hoping your next round is free and clear. I think once they are had, it only makes sense to pre-treat with a systemic. What did you use? imid, spectra, orthene or what? I hit my veg up with the imid, hit my flower around week 2 with spectracide and then did an insecticidal soap feed followed a few days later with botanigard. Seems the damage has been done though as the infected plants have pretty much halted. Just happy to know what i am dealing with.

 

[eyes]

id try bottom feeding if you feel that you are over watering at any point. i dont use additives cause i feel organic nutes do a good enough job on its own. coco supposedly has a natural trichoderma-(before being sterilized.this is why canna coco adds it back) hydrogen peroxide will kill it off.

my opinion is that coco works well enough on its own without all additives.if i was doing hydro i might start using additives cause you dont have that coco protecting and encompassing the root growth.roots in water are more sensitive to temperature swings and such thus need more protection/maintenance. water needs to be cartain temp or your d.o goes down,pythium and farisium(spelling on that one is incorrect).

id say that you have been overwatering-The excess water makes it very difficult for the roots to get the air that they need, causing them to decay.

"Coco peat (cocopeat), also known as coir pith, coir fibre pith, coir dust, or simply coir, is made from coconut husks, which are byproducts of other industries that use coconuts. Coir waste from coir fiber industries is washed, heat-treated, screened and graded before being processed into coco peat products of various granularity and denseness, which are then used for horticultural and agricultural applications and as industrial absorbent.

Usually shipped in the form of compressed bales, briquettes, slabs or discs, the end user usually expands and aerates the compressed coco peat by the addition of water. A single kilogram of coco peat will expand to 15 litres of moist coco peat.

Trichoderma is a naturally occurring fungus in coco peat; it works in symbiosis with plant roots to protect them from pathogenic fungi such as pythium. It is not present in sterilized coco peat. Trichoderma is also destroyed by hydrogen peroxide."

hope this helps. i like helping people-good luck.

 

[ACAB]

Over watering for sure

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Over watering for sure

Yea, I am wondering if it is over watering as a result of aphid attack that damaged the roots....

Enough roots die that it can't drink...This is why we see no maggot infestation and still have problems. Damage was done to the roots which slowly got worse as roots died off and even basic watering = over watering even in coco.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Yeah so in my case i am certain no overwatering was happening. The roots just were not drinking. I would let them get dry and water again, in the meantime more roots would die and i would wait longer for the plant to drink before watering. repeat all over again.
I am going with Root Aphid's slowly killing the roots.
So far my 5 week old veg plants are all 100% happy. They wer treated a few weeks ago with Imid, as will every other veg plant for the next little while.

 

[ACAB]

Was your nute feed well mixed up in your res before you watered??? I had this once thats why switched to HnG nutes maybee roots stopped taking on water/nutes and were sat in water for long periods causing decay/death to root cells and In your pic where in places have come back nice and white at the top is due to it drying out allowing the plant to breath! I reckon get a few clay pebbles in the bottom of your pots

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Was your nute feed well mixed up in your res before you watered??? I had this once thats why switched to HnG nutes maybee roots stopped taking on water/nutes and were sat in water for long periods causing decay/death to root cells and In your pic where in places have come back nice and white at the top is due to it drying out allowing the plant to breath! I reckon get a few clay pebbles in the bottom of your pots

Clay pebbles needed for CoCo, heh? Don't think so man very bad advice about as bad as putting perlite in coco....It is not just over watering if that is even a part of it at all. Obviously we all had root aphids...I water my healthy plants 2-3x a day (after roots are established) when they are going through growth spurts in CoCo and so do some of the best coco growers on the board. The more you water the more oxygen is introduced to the roots in CoCo. Do you grow coco? Huge difference between that and soil.

We don't need our medium to be more aerated...

We have bugs that feed off our roots and kill them...if overwatering happens it happens after the massive damage to the root systems that aphids caused. Never had 'overwatering' problems in coco until I got aphids. My shit was incredible...blew my soil away.

Over watering in coco? Not unless you are a complete idiot or have bug problems:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=55683

Does DWC over water heh? Think about it...We are the same as hydro because the medium is so light.

My plants that appear to not be drinking normal are all the ones that were around for the initial aphid attack and got it the worse. I am going to go ahead and bang the gavel on this one and chalk it up as another side affect of root aphids. If they don't destroy your plant initially they do in the long run by the damage already done to roots.