What strains for breeding a german genetic?

[MROrganicGreenz]

As much as I am stoked about your idea, I have to come down with some realistic stuff. I havent read all the posts, coz I just found your thread and I am about to be off to bed. But with the shitty legislation they invented here, there is not much possibility of landrace breeding. For real landraces you would need high numbers of plants, open pollination and you should begin with high diversity. I would recommend population breeding and a few years of positive and negative selection. Aim for > 10 years. I know, this sounds cruel, but thats how it could and should be going. All in all it's doable, but not with the 3 plant limit. But you could start selection for promising parents and if not IBL already, do Bx or Selfing indoors and evaluate in season outdoors.

I am a huge fan of IBL, heirloom and landraces and I would love to start some > 100 plant operations, but that might take a few more years. Another factor would be the problem with open pollination. As much as I like hemp, that could wreck a whole operation through cross pollination.

What we could do, and I know, that's highly illegal ;D, is do some kind of group project. I guess earliest starting next year, but a little bit of pre-selection and trying out some strains this year. I am gonna grow an ACE R+D Purple Malawi + ErdPurt (3 Plants regular) + some semi autoflowering hash plant and afghan. We could update each other on promising strains and do some test crosses indoor in winter. I hope I will have some promising males.

So far from me. Greetings from the Hauptstadt.

 

[Asentrouw]

?
I´m afraid I´ve never heard of them

You can buy HFH strains at Nordic Genetics, Gnomes Garden and some other seedbanks.
This certainly is the go-to breeder for Danish genetics. His Danish Gold, Danish Passion, Royal Dane, Hashplant 2 are certainly worth a try for northern climates.

 

[ossi_grower]

Following here because I have the same thing in mind as OP! I'm from the mid-eastern german hill-lands with a sub-continental climate

My plan was also to inbreed, stabilise and select an indica landrace or heirloom line for early flowering and finish, balanced thc:cbd content, strong trichome production (I want to go for some kind of hashplant) and of course hardiness and resistance against pests, mould, heat and frost in the first step.

As a starting point for this I found many interesting strains on kwikseeds / rsc. Some of the ideas that came to my mind upon further study of the topic and comparison were for example their Balkhi, Iranian, Mazar-i-sharif, Tirah or Yasin Valley strains. But of course I am open for any other recommendations beside these strains, also from other breeders! I'd prefer a not UK-based seller, as I'm not completely familiar with how customs handle packages from there to the EU, so I'd be grateful for any hints, if someone from the forum ordered from them to a EU-country. Maybe even someone on the forum themself had a middle eastern indica genetic line at home he or she was willing to share?

The second step I planned is crossing it with some well-selected ruderalis genetics (once again I got inspiration from kwikseeds, this time their 1st to 3rd gen. Siberian Ruderalis) or some very early flowering stabilised variety (something like the Friesland Indica, Master Kush 1990 or maybe a Ketama Landrace).

Right now the only thing in my seed stash that's somehow useable for that issue is a KC 45 from KC Brains (Brazilian Sativa x Russian Ruderalis) that I'm currently growing for the first time to produce enough seeds for future breeding experiments and studies. (I'm new to the breeding game, but I already have many ideas... )
It's a shame that there are so few regular autoflower seeds available on most seed banks... Maybe someone of you can give a recommendation for a breeder or seedbank that has some in stock or even a specific strain?

Also, since it seems that quite a few german fellows had the same thing in mind, I love the idea of sharing and exchanging the results of all our breeding projects on here with each other that someone had a few pages ago.

Thank you for reading so far and hear you soon, I hope that you guys have not abandoned your plans already.

 

[Asentrouw]

It's a shame that there are so few regular autoflower seeds available on most seed banks... Maybe someone of you can give a recommendation for a breeder or seedbank that has some in stock or even a specific strain?

Finland Soviet Seeds sells all kind of autoflowers like Sour 60, Trabant, Shortterm Amnesia, RK62 and other auto strains that are already acclimatised to Northern climates. All regular seeds.

Currently I'm selecting my own strain F3, which I coined Brainwash. Don't know the exact heritage, as I took it from a forest guerillaspot with different strains. But no ruderalis, a very light sensitive, very early photoperiod strain (finishes around end of august, start september at lat 53). Small "christmas tree" structure, nice subtile berry smells, quite some potency for a outdoor strain, mellow effect and relatively mold resistant.

If its stable enough after this, I hope to donate some seeds to the serverfunds here next year, so others can work it further.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Following here because I have the same thing in mind as OP! I'm from the mid-eastern german hill-lands with a sub-continental climate

My plan was also to inbreed, stabilise and select an indica landrace or heirloom line for early flowering and finish, balanced thc:cbd content, strong trichome production (I want to go for some kind of hashplant) and of course hardiness and resistance against pests, mould, heat and frost in the first step.

As a starting point for this I found many interesting strains on kwikseeds / rsc. Some of the ideas that came to my mind upon further study of the topic and comparison were for example their Balkhi, Iranian, Mazar-i-sharif, Tirah or Yasin Valley strains. But of course I am open for any other recommendations beside these strains, also from other breeders! I'd prefer a not UK-based seller, as I'm not completely familiar with how customs handle packages from there to the EU, so I'd be grateful for any hints, if someone from the forum ordered from them to a EU-country. Maybe even someone on the forum themself had a middle eastern indica genetic line at home he or she was willing to share?

The second step I planned is crossing it with some well-selected ruderalis genetics (once again I got inspiration from kwikseeds, this time their 1st to 3rd gen. Siberian Ruderalis) or some very early flowering stabilised variety (something like the Friesland Indica, Master Kush 1990 or maybe a Ketama Landrace).

Right now the only thing in my seed stash that's somehow useable for that issue is a KC 45 from KC Brains (Brazilian Sativa x Russian Ruderalis) that I'm currently growing for the first time to produce enough seeds for future breeding experiments and studies. (I'm new to the breeding game, but I already have many ideas... )
It's a shame that there are so few regular autoflower seeds available on most seed banks... Maybe someone of you can give a recommendation for a breeder or seedbank that has some in stock or even a specific strain?

Also, since it seems that quite a few german fellows had the same thing in mind, I love the idea of sharing and exchanging the results of all our breeding projects on here with each other that someone had a few pages ago.

Thank you for reading so far and hear you soon, I hope that you guys have not abandoned your plans already.

I can tell you about my journey with RSC. I was a little naive a few weeks ago and put up an order, since it was legal now I thought: What the heck, it will be no problem. Then the package was stuck in customs for 3 weeks and I was suuuuuper nervous, since there was no reason for that. After three weeks it started moving again and within 3 more days it arrived. I was sweating bullets and thought they exchanged the package for a little letter with my "Ermittlungsverfahren". But it arrived savely, wasn't opened and they did a creative packaging. It was a video-game with seeds packed stealthy.

So if you have stron nervs, you should give it a try. Funnily I ordered Ketama, which is semi-autoflowering. I popped 4 of them, 3 came. If you need them for next season, ****TOU****. i hope I will be able to produce some seeds. Since it should be close to an IBL I hope it will produce okay-ish seeds. For outdoor season it should be to late to begin another try this year. But we can stay in contact.

I will go into detail with the other points tomorrow.

Have a good night

 

[ossi_grower]

I can tell you about my journey with RSC. I was a little naive a few weeks ago and put up an order, since it was legal now I thought: What the heck, it will be no problem. Then the package was stuck in customs for 3 weeks and I was suuuuuper nervous, since there was no reason for that. After three weeks it started moving again and within 3 more days it arrived. I was sweating bullets and thought they exchanged the package for a little letter with my "Ermittlungsverfahren". But it arrived savely, wasn't opened and they did a creative packaging. It was a video-game with seeds packed stealthy.

So if you have stron nervs, you should give it a try. Funnily I ordered Ketama, which is semi-autoflowering. I popped 4 of them, 3 came. If you need them for next season. i hope I will be able to produce some seeds. Since it should be close to an IBL I hope it will produce okay-ish seeds. For outdoor season it should be to late to begin another try this year. But we can stay in contact.

I will go into detail with the other points tomorrow.

Have a good night

Thank you two for your replies , I'll take a look at finland soviet seeds and watch out for some interesting strains


Oh ok, so you're from Germany too MROrganicGreenz? Nice to hear that the letter made it through customs for you! I don't know if I should risk it, I often had luck but I also already got post from the customs in the past... I don't want to challenge my luck too much

The Ketama Landrace definitely waked my interest, I'd be happy of you kept me up to date about that

 

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[Asentrouw]

Oh ok, so you're from Germany too MROrganicGreenz? Nice to hear that the letter made it through customs for you! I don't know if I should risk it, I often had luck but I also already got post from the customs in the past... I don't want to challenge my luck too much

The Ketama Landrace definitely waked my interest, I'd be happy of you kept me up to date about that

Kwik/TRSC is very stealth shipping, so for sure will come through customs. I have ordered several times there, never had any problems.

Due to the Brexit it can get stuck in transit for a while. Sometimes you need to pay extra taxes over it. But it remains the best adress for landraces and oldschool genetics for a fair price with lots of interesting freebies.

 

[ossi_grower]

Kwik/TRSC is very stealth shipping, so for sure will come through customs. I have ordered several times there, never had any problems.

Due to the Brexit it can get stuck in transit for a while. Sometimes you need to pay extra taxes over it. But it remains the best adress for landraces and oldschool genetics for a fair price with lots of interesting freebies.

Thank you Asentrouw
I stopped overthinking it and just ordered something last night from them. Hope I made a good decision, their stock is so big and almost everything sounds so intriguing to me.
I'll post again when the letter arrives by me and I can start reproducing the seeds that I have ordered.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Hello my dear friends. I see that the plans are on hold. I could offer two very healthy Male Ketama Beldia Kif (semi-autoflowering) from TRSC. I will put up some pictures this afternoon. I dont know, if they are really semi-autoflowering coz I put them in Light-deprivation a week ago. I popped them really late (mid May), so I needed them to flower soon, since I was hoping for a female. Sadly I wasn't blessed with a female, but two strong males. I thought about letting them flower and chuck some pollen on my two females from another strain, to get some beans and maybe getting some autoflower trait into them. I would collect some more pollen, desiccate it and freeze / send it by mail to someone in need

Greetings

 

[Asentrouw]

Hello my dear friends. I see that the plans are on hold. I could offer two very healthy Male Ketama Beldia Kif (semi-autoflowering) from TRSC. I will put up some pictures this afternoon. I dont know, if they are really semi-autoflowering coz I put them in Light-deprivation a week ago. I popped them really late (mid May), so I needed them to flower soon, since I was hoping for a female. Sadly I wasn't blessed with a female, but two strong males. I thought about letting them flower and chuck some pollen on my two females from another strain, to get some beans and maybe getting some autoflower trait into them. I would collect some more pollen, desiccate it and freeze / send it by mail to someone in need

Greetings

I have a RSC Ketama running outdoors too (the one in the front). However, it didn't seem semi-auto to me as it still doesn't flower. Strange as most Marocs are quite early. Most semi-auto's here start around end of july with flowering.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Yeah I'm also not so sure bout that. I cannot really give proper Information, since I popped them end of may. But there wasn't any flowering going on, before I started light deprivation. I will pop them in early April next year so I will get an idea how they do. I have another 8 seeds back here, so I hope this time will be a girl around

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Well well well. I had a third Ketama that I wasn't sure about the sex yet and I was super stoked when I saw the white pistils, but I am pretty sure, that it shows some intersex traits, which is why I probably will get rid of it. It tends to be mostly female, but I saw some suspicious ball-like things, that made me wince. I might post a pic or two. I really hate being in such a quandary. It smells super nice, some kind of distinct bubble-gum flavor with chemical nuances. But I actually dont want to fck up my 3 girls (2 x R+D Purple Malawi x Erdpurt & 1 x Afghan mix from TRSC). In the end I might just kill it off with a tear in my eye. Dont wanna go on with intersex traits in my pool. The two pure males from Ketama on the other hand are super strong

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Yep. You should have an eye on intersex traits with your ketama. Its not super obvious and can be overlooked when you dont observe good. Regards

 

[awesomenametag]

As much as I am stoked about your idea, I have to come down with some realistic stuff. I havent read all the posts, coz I just found your thread and I am about to be off to bed. But with the shitty legislation they invented here, there is not much possibility of landrace breeding. For real landraces you would need high numbers of plants, open pollination and you should begin with high diversity. I would recommend population breeding and a few years of positive and negative selection. Aim for > 10 years. I know, this sounds cruel, but thats how it could and should be going. All in all it's doable, but not with the 3 plant limit. But you could start selection for promising parents and if not IBL already, do Bx or Selfing indoors and evaluate in season outdoors.

I am a huge fan of IBL, heirloom and landraces and I would love to start some > 100 plant operations, but that might take a few more years. Another factor would be the problem with open pollination. As much as I like hemp, that could wreck a whole operation through cross pollination.

What we could do, and I know, that's highly illegal ;D, is do some kind of group project. I guess earliest starting next year, but a little bit of pre-selection and trying out some strains this year. I am gonna grow an ACE R+D Purple Malawi + ErdPurt (3 Plants regular) + some semi autoflowering hash plant and afghan. We could update each other on promising strains and do some test crosses indoor in winter. I hope I will have some promising males.

So far from me. Greetings from the Hauptstadt.

I’m interested in doing a cross with Erdpurt from ace seeds, have you grown them outdoors before? If so when did they finish? And what was the growth structure like? Was there much variation or do they all look similar?

 

[Probiomer]

Breeding with 100+ Plants should be legally possible for a cannabis social club.

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

I’m interested in doing a cross with Erdpurt from ace seeds, have you grown them outdoors before? If so when did they finish? And what was the growth structure like? Was there much variation or do they all look similar?

Heya, no I haven't grown the pure ErdPurt, just the R+D Cross with Purple Malawi.

I have to say, that I wasn't 100% convinced with that cross. I did light deprivation to shorten the cycle - 1 Month. I dont know, whether it will finish in time. But I also think, that the Malawi influence could have been the factor, that lengthened the period. I would give it a try. Its pretty hardy and resistant to mold, but my pollinated buds started to mold at some point. Although I think the pollinated buds tend more towards mold and I stopped fertilizing a month before and that always limits the immune system of a plant.

I would say: Go for it and if you have a chance for light deprivation take one plant with shorter period and 2 plants full cycle? Dunno which ° you are at.

Regards

 

[MROrganicGreenz]

Breeding with 100+ Plants should be legally possible for a cannabis social club.

Thats a good point. Buuuuut ... und hier schreib ich in deutsch weiter, weil ich nicht so viel Zeit zum nachdenken über die englische Übersetzung habe xD

Wir müssen uns erstmal überlegen, was eine Landrasse ist. Die ist per definitionem eine "Sorte", welche durch Selektion an den Ort angepasst ist. Die Frage ist also erstmal: Welcher Ort? Deutschland ist, im Vgl. zu anderen Ländern, zwar nicht sehr groß, aber wir haben trotzdem eine gewisse Spannbreite, was die klimatischen Bedingungen angeht. Wenn ich am Bodensee eine Sorte züchte, die dort adaptiert ist, wird diese an der Nordseeküste anders performen, als z.B. im Ruhrpott. Sieht man ja zum Beispiel auch bei den ganzen Kush Landrassen: Das ist ein Gebirge, aber so variabel, dass da sehr viele verschiedene Landrassen rauskamen. Das hat immer 2 Hauptkomponenten: Die biotischen/abiotischen Faktoren und die Präferenzen sowie das Können des / der Selektierenden. Soviel erstmal zur Örtlichkeit. Ich denke, dass es bei dem Vorhaben mglws. sinnvoll wäre, das ganze andersrum aufzuziehen. Nicht beim Ort anfangen, sondern bei der Genetik. Es wäre am sinnvollsten, Populationssorten zu produzieren und den Ramsch dann über mehrere Generationen an mehreren Standorten offen Pollinaten zu lassen. Es gab hier in letzter Zeit Versuche mit Weizen und Populationssorten, welche damit gute Erfolge verbuchen konnten. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10681-022-03072-2)


Der erste Schritt wäre, ein Zuchtziel bzw. Traits zu formulieren, welche man für sinnvoll erachtet. Frühe Reife, Schimmelresistenz, Terpenprofil und so weiter. Dann sucht man die besten Eltern. Es ist erstmal nicht wichtig, ob die Sorten alle alles aufweisen. Man sucht sich am besten Inbreedlines und Eliteeltern, welche man in riesigen Flächen offen Blühen lässt. Die F1 nimmt man als Ramsch und verschickt sie an alle Standorte, die Bock haben. Dort wird großflächig ausgesät und über mehrere Generationen offen blühen gelassen, ohne viel zu selektieren. Das macht die Natur dann selbst. Natürlich sollte man offensichtliche Zwitter rauswerfen, aber wenn das Ausgangsmaterial gut war, dann müsste das wenig Aufwand sein. In 5-10 Jahren hat man bei ausreichender Größe der Population eine Sorte, die einigermaßen an den Standort adaptiert ist. Eine "echte Landrasse" braucht in meinen Augen > 20 Jahre und mehrere tausend Pflanzen innerhalb der Population. Weshalb dies nicht möglich sein wird. Es flog hier irgendwo im Forum mal ein Link zu einer Publikation rum, in der gesagt wurde, dass Cannabis Landrassen knapp 2000 (?) Pflanzen in einer Population benötigen, damit der Genpool nicht erodiert. Das wird so nicht möglich sein. Aber adaptierte Genetiken sollten schon machbar sein.

Ich fang mal an mit meiner Meinung nach wichtigen Traits und möglichen Genetiken

Frühe Blüte, am besten semi-autoflower -> Ketama Rif (TRSC oder Khalifa)
Starke Resistenzen -> ErdPurt / Erdbeerli / Friesian / allgemein Landrassen
Stabile Weibchen/Männchen -> Vorsicht mit Landrassen aus gewissen Gegenden (tropische Sativas/labile Kushsorten)
Geschmack und Geruch sind halb vollkommen subjektiv, weshalb ich mich hier suuuuper schwer tue. Viele fruchtige Genetiken werden rausfallen, weil tropische Sativas eher wenig Chancen haben ihre Genetik durchzubringen. Eine Mango-Thai wird zwar als Männchen zur Blüte kommen, aber ein stabiles Männchen finden ist super schwierig und die Samen könnten ggf. schlecht ausreifen.

Für den letzten Faktor muss man echt in sich gehen und gucken, inwieweit dort eine Entscheidung getroffen werden sollte / kann und ob man eher funktionale Aspekte integriert und guckt, was geschmacklich / olfaktorisch dabei rauskommt.

LG

 

[Schande des Waldes]

Ich hoffe du findest letztendlich unter vielen Pflanzen deine Favoriten. Ich würde trotzdem kontrollieren und was offensichtlich Müll ist rausreißen.

 

[kendermag]

I do not recommend auto x photoperiodic, since as you have been told, you would obtain the autoflowering trait stabilized from F3, and making an outdoor selection of this trait is not as easy as doing it indoors. You can easily get confused and choose a fast-flowering parent thinking that it is auto (25% of the F2) without being so.

If you want an auto, in my opinion is better auto x auto, preferably 2 different varieties, to have more variability and choose what best adapts to your area.

Personally I would go for a semi-autoflowering, if you start from a landrace of this type, it is likely that you will find enough variability to choose one that suits your needs.

Another option is to cross two different semi-autoflowering strains, or even semi-autoflowering x photoperiodic, although you will need more generations to stabilize what you are looking for.