Vote NO to legalize cannabis....Or else

[Jhhnn]

please describe - in detail with citations- exactly which parts of I502 are "very poorly written".

Puh-leeze. The results speak for themselves.

 

[shaggyballs]

I would like to state again:

" I am all for legalization if it is done for the people and by the people "

But I am not for legalization that is all about the $$$$$$$$ !

Peace
Shag

 

[Donn]

The little guy as in MMJ medical growers are being driven out of business.

OK, if you mean medical, say that. There are plenty of little guys, and plenty of competition, but the medical business is not in a good spot right now. And yes - in states that have similar medical arrangement and are anywhere close to legalization, look at what's happening here and maybe figure out how to do better.

Legal states are as a rule going to set up a more tightly regulated system, and existing medical business is not in the long term going to just be exempted, but it doesn't have to be as disruptive a collision as it is here.

Are existing MMJ businesses ignoring whatever rules there are - size limits and whatever? Are lots of people getting fraudulent prescriptions, who don't have any real compelling medical need? When it comes time to represent the medical business, don't think anyone's been fooled, and it makes your job a lot harder when you have that credibility problem. You have to recognize that this stuff that seems like a great idea to the people involved, looks different to the citizenry, law enforcement etc. who are looking at it from the outside.

Then recognize that the business is going to be more tightly regulated, and that isn't going to be free or convenient, and get involved anyway.

 

[VenturaHwy]

OK, if you mean medical, say that. There are plenty of little guys, and plenty of competition, but the medical business is not in a good spot right now. And yes - in states that have similar medical arrangement and are anywhere close to legalization, look at what's happening here and maybe figure out how to do better.

Legal states are as a rule going to set up a more tightly regulated system, and existing medical business is not in the long term going to just be exempted, but it doesn't have to be as disruptive a collision as it is here.

Are existing MMJ businesses ignoring whatever rules there are - size limits and whatever? Are lots of people getting fraudulent prescriptions, who don't have any real compelling medical need? When it comes time to represent the medical business, don't think anyone's been fooled, and it makes your job a lot harder when you have that credibility problem. You have to recognize that this stuff that seems like a great idea to the people involved, looks different to the citizenry, law enforcement etc. who are looking at it from the outside.

Then recognize that the business is going to be more tightly regulated, and that isn't going to be free or convenient, and get involved anyway.

I did say MMJ and medical, at least 4 times. You sound more like a cop then someone who would be interested in a cannabis forum for growers. If you don't grow what are you doing here?

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

If You can not understand that how it looks to the Citizens, police, Politicians,,,, You know The VERY Folks that have control. You choose to defame logic. Do You expect to sound credible?
This is the problem in this country. Everybody gets SO SURE of their position on shit, that We cease to even hear REASON. If We can no longer respect one another to listen,,, We are truly DOOMED.

Peace N LoVe; Twisted

 

[Jhhnn]

I did say MMJ and medical, at least 4 times. You sound more like a cop then someone who would be interested in a cannabis forum for growers. If you don't grow what are you doing here?

I think it's unreasonable to dismiss Donn's comments in such a fashion.

He hints at what I see as a greater truth, that MMJ in general has served as a pilot program for broader cannabis use through legalization.

Dunno about elsewhere, but Colorado's MMJ system leaked cannabis all over the place in a variety of ways, likely still does. That seems to be a structural aspect of nearly all MMJ programs.

At some deep level, anybody who knows much about it knows that's true. What happened here, anyway, is that even people who were suspicious & distrustful put up with it so that true MMJ users would benefit. The next thing that happened is that people accepted the idea that wider use of cannabis really didn't make a helluva lot of difference, at least not in a negative way. They started to see through the disinformation that fueled prohibition for decades. They got tired of the hypocrisy & the dangerous situations created in the war on marijuana. They saw that the "cure" was much worse than the supposed disease.

The stage was set for the team of people who created A64 & the coalition of people who promoted it & got it passed. It co-opts the Establishment with promises of big boy profits & tax revenues, but it does a lot more than that. Having the right to possess & grow cannabis as part of the State Constitution obliterates prohibition. Federal enforcement at that level is impossible w/o State participation. The forces of greed & authoritarianism are greatly constrained, effectively hobbled.

There will be winners & losers in the realm of commercial cannabis, for sure, but damned few at the user level. We won- not everything, nobody got a unicorn, but it's a watershed event, the Magna Carta of Cannabis.

 

[oneofus]

Puh-leeze. The results speak for themselves.

your argument is based on a false premise.

this is not an res ipsa loquitor and you know it. but nice way to marginalize the question by dodging the question. you don't have an answer do you? That's because there is nothing wrong with i502 per se. the problem is that 502 is not a constitutional amendment to the WA constitution. that means that the legislature is able to do anything they want with 502.

this is why your premise is built on shifting sand and not the bedrock of facts.

have you even actually read the entirety OF 502? have you?

here's a link. read it before you make vague negative unsubstantuated claims about 502 that have no basis in fact.

http://tdn.com/i--complete-text/pdf_b924eb0a-1d76-11e2-980b-001a4bcf887a.html

Putting an "authoritarian twist on it"???

they're not touching 502. they're passing new laws to modify it.

Look at Article 2 Section 41 of the WA state constitution. the same is not true in CO and CA because those initiatives (64 and 215) ARE constitutional amendments that are immune from changes by the respective legislatures. look closely at the pile of bills that is altering 502 and they are all perfectly legal. CA tried to amend 215 with sb420 and both the 3rd District court of appeals and the CA supreme court invalidated sb420 as an unconstitutional change to a voter initiative TO CA's constitution. THAT is why WA is so fucked up. there IS no way for citizens to amend their constitution in WA. that's why the legislature there can do as it pleases. i.e. fuck patients and homegrowers for $.

here's a link that proves that citizens of WA state can not amend their own constitution: http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/waconst.html

look at the bottom of the page and see where it states directly that WA state citizens can NOT amend their own constitution like CO and CA can.

you sound like a shill for the big money interests in the state. just like a.s.a. and norml. go away.

@Ventury Highway. I agree. he does sound like a cop. It may sound paranoid, but it is entirely possible that he's actually a counter-intel agent from LE. maybe i'm wrong but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

 

[1TWISTEDTRUCKER]

Just a thought,,,, Cant it be a flawed instrument, because it was The Wrong Kind of Instrument fotir the job of insuring liberty. From The States point of view, It is PERRRRFECT.
They get to the same bait N switch as has been going on for longer than most of have been alive. Furthermore,,, It keeps Us ALL pissing on One Another over semantics.
The only way to guarantee these Freedoms is through Constitutional amendments. Nationally, and at the State levels. Each State to it's Citizens choice in what form this takes.

I think that's how this is supposed to work. Some arguably Wiser Men set forth some documents to this effect, but We've out grown that logic apparently, over these past 230+ plus Years.

Twisted

 

[Donn]

I agree. he does sound like a cop. It may sound paranoid, but it is entirely possible that he's actually a counter-intel agent from LE. maybe i'm wrong but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

Dang, I forgot to smoke a bowl before posting, and now my cover is blown!

I'm not a grower, that's for sure, so if that's actually against the rules, alert the authorities, I'll go peacefully.

What's sad, though - do you know any I-502-legal growers here? I would like to think they'd find something of value here, and would be valued contributors, but my guess is that if there are any, that's who's under cover. Not cops, your own fellow growers, because of the climate created by this bitter crowd of MMJ growers.

 

[Bud Green]

edited:

oops, wrong thread....

 

[oneofus]

You sound more like a cop then someone who would be interested in a cannabis forum for growers. If you don't grow what are you doing here?

i did NOT say you were a cop. i agreed with Ventura Highway that you SOUND like a cop. do NOT twist my words.

you admit that you are not a grower like the rest of us here, so i ask the same question as Ventura Highway. what are you doing on a canna board?

 

[Bud Green]

Yeah, they still have dry counties all over the US...
I live in a dry county in my state....

BUT, you cannot make that analogy...
They don't persecute OR prosecute me for driving 80 miles round trip, and possessing and drinking the booze I purchase, in my home...

Oh, by the way,,,,
In this dry county in which I live, there are 4 or 5 restaurants and "clubs" which allow the sale of beer and/or mixed drinks...
They are all owned by people whose names I am familiar with, yet I don't know any of them personally.
Why don't I know them?
They are all members of wealthy, monied families from this area...
Yet "somehow" they have been allowed to purchase "special" permits or licences, which "allow" them to make profit from the sale of alcohol in a "dry" county..... Hmmm...

I think this is what most of the commenters here feel is what lawmakers are trying set up for the "marijuana industry"...and we don't like it....

 

[Donn]

But real legalization is the way, to get away from special arrangements that are available to people with connections. That happens because it's a dry county, no? Anywhere else, your state might require a liquor license, mine does, but it's available to anyone who cares to jump through the hoops.

 

[Jhhnn]

your argument is based on a false premise.

this is not an res ipsa loquitor and you know it. but nice way to marginalize the question by dodging the question. you don't have an answer do you? That's because there is nothing wrong with i502 per se. the problem is that 502 is not a constitutional amendment to the WA constitution. that means that the legislature is able to do anything they want with 502.

this is why your premise is built on shifting sand and not the bedrock of facts.

have you even actually read the entirety OF 502? have you?

here's a link. read it before you make vague negative unsubstantuated claims about 502 that have no basis in fact.

http://tdn.com/i--complete-text/pdf_b924eb0a-1d76-11e2-980b-001a4bcf887a.html

Putting an "authoritarian twist on it"???

they're not touching 502. they're passing new laws to modify it.

Look at Article 2 Section 41 of the WA state constitution. the same is not true in CO and CA because those initiatives (64 and 215) ARE constitutional amendments that are immune from changes by the respective legislatures. look closely at the pile of bills that is altering 502 and they are all perfectly legal. CA tried to amend 215 with sb420 and both the 3rd District court of appeals and the CA supreme court invalidated sb420 as an unconstitutional change to a voter initiative TO CA's constitution. THAT is why WA is so fucked up. there IS no way for citizens to amend their constitution in WA. that's why the legislature there can do as it pleases. i.e. fuck patients and homegrowers for $.

here's a link that proves that citizens of WA state can not amend their own constitution: http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/waconst.html

look at the bottom of the page and see where it states directly that WA state citizens can NOT amend their own constitution like CO and CA can.

you sound like a shill for the big money interests in the state. just like a.s.a. and norml. go away.

@Ventury Highway. I agree. he does sound like a cop. It may sound paranoid, but it is entirely possible that he's actually a counter-intel agent from LE. maybe i'm wrong but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

I never implied negligence. I'm well aware that the WA constitution cannot be changed by an initiative of the people.

OTOH, I think I502 left the will of the people subject to more interpretation than necessary thus letting the weasels run wild.

It did not call for legalized personal growing nor did it attempt to protect the existing MMJ system of collectives & storefronts from the legislature. Those are very deep flaws, obviously.

Retail cannabis exists in WA by dint of I502. I have little doubt that protections for the MMJ system & legal personal growing would also be part of the current scene in WA had they been specifically enumerated in I502. They were not.

False premises, you say? Painting me as a big money shill & Donn as a narc are pure conspiracy theory as justification for otherwise unsupportable belief.

Growing cannabis for family & friends is my retirement hobby. It's like going fishing except I don't have to go anywhere. I hate ice fishing, besides. I've put in a fair amount of time, money & effort to do it & will continue that way. It's also been an interesting technical challenge. Check my albums.

I swore off selling any of it when I came back to growing at retirement & the serendipitous passage of A64. That makes me a bit different.

The good people of CO & the Obama DOJ let me & a lot of other people do that w/ no paranoia whatsoever. It's a great deal & I'll gladly hold up my end of it. Everybody should have it so good.

 

[oneofus]

I never implied negligence

first, you were the one to use the phrase with no qualifications and now you come back to disclaim it? are you a lawyer? lmao...

secondly,
we're not in a court of law and therefore the door to the concept of negligence is not open. as such, only the phrase "the thing speaks for itself" can be discussed. because that is the only thing we are talking about. the words: "res ipsa loquitor" directly translate from the Latin to "the thing speaks for itself". no one said anything about its modern day application in the confines of law. and why are you thinking along the lines of negligence in this discussion anyway? are you a lawyer? i have little doubt you are...

I'm well aware that the WA constitution cannot be changed by an initiative of the people.

OTOH, I think I502 left the will of the people subject to more interpretation than necessary thus letting the weasels run wild.

interpretation of i502 is irrelevant. the leg. can - and has - and will - do anything they want to with i502 and whatever else they want to do and there is nothing you can do about it. see Article II Section 41 of the current WA constitution.

It did not call for legalized personal growing nor did it attempt to protect the existing MMJ system of collectives & storefronts from the legislature. Those are very deep flaws, obviously.

of course it didn't. That's because it was written by shills with the interests of the monopolists in mind. not that that matters at all. the WA leg. would have taken that right out of i502 as their goal is to maximize revenue for the state. just in the same way they are killing the med side. if the leg. would have wanted to allow personal growing they could have -and still could - at any time. same with the medical side. proof of the pudding is that they now want to fold the two together under one system. mmmmmmm......can you smell what the WA leg. is cookin'?

Retail cannabis exists in WA by dint of I502. I have little doubt that protections for the MMJ system & legal personal growing would also be part of the current scene in WA had they been specifically enumerated in I502. They were not. see Article II Section 41 of the WA state constitution.

i see....you can predict the way the future would have been from the past...all based on your suppositions.......nice....and i have little doubt that the sf giants will win the world series again in 2016 based on their past performances...2010...2012...2014...2016...lol

c'mon man, you're smarter than to try and get away with that. you're obviously both intelligent enough and educated enough to know better than to use such a thing in a debate....seriously dude...

the leg. would have taken that right to home growing out. they want the $$$$$$$$ and the control. don't you get that this IS the new prohibition? why do you think that assclown got hired to do the actual writing of the regs themselves?

for god's sake man, this is just like what congress did by not allowing even home-brewing of beer in very small quantities under penalty of federal incarceration until jimmy carter signed that bye-bye more than 40 years after federal and state repeal of the 19th amendment.


False premises, you say?

Yes, i do say. In fact, i insist.

Painting me as a big money shill & Donn as a narc are pure conspiracy theory as justification for otherwise unsupportable belief.

nice try at twisting my words. re-read my post. i SAID that you SOUND like a shill. i did NOT say that you WERE a shill. kinda like the difference between free speech and grounds for libel, slander, defamation of character. i'm sure you can think of a few more charges....lol you will note that i said the exact same thing about and then to Donn. and the reason both Ventura Highway and i said that Donn SOUNDS like a cop is because he does. he may not be. it is probable he is not. it sure LQQKS like he might be. get the difference?

Growing cannabis for family & friends is my retirement hobby. It's like going fishing except I don't have to go anywhere. I hate ice fishing, besides. I've put in a fair amount of time, money & effort to do it & will continue that way. It's also been an interesting technical challenge. Check my albums.

i'm glad you are enjoying your retirement and am glad that both you and your friends are reaping the fruits of your labor. for free no less it sounds. very cool.

just do remember that it was the voters of CO that gave you your freedom back the next time you and your friends smoke out.

I swore off selling any of it when I came back to growing at retirement & the serendipitous passage of A64. That makes me a bit different.

yeah, it does. and it changes your paradigm of how you look at this problem too. thanks for being so forthcoming.

The good people of CO & the Obama DOJ let me & a lot of other people do that w/ no paranoia whatsoever. It's a great deal & I'll gladly hold up my end of it. Everybody should have it so good.

btw, i'm curious. what do you like to grow for yourself?

 

[Donn]

you're obviously both intelligent enough and educated enough to know better than to use such a thing in a debate.

I would have said he's smarter than to get tangled up in this "debate" that seems to be all on your terms. Where are you going with this? I-502 isn't something we're trying to hash out and get right, it's here. The thread, as I understand it, is about the potential for legalization in other states. Jhhnn's point seemed to be that Washington's approach was farther from the ideal model than Colorado's, so ... you all would advocate something closer to Colorado's legalization structure, am I right?

As for trying to discredit people by saying they sound like shills, cops, etc., and then protesting that you didn't say they ARE shills, cops, etc. ... you hide behind a semantic technicality like a moose hiding behind a sapling. Can't see us? We can see you.

 

[paper thorn]

So you think you should not have to pay taxes and should be allowed to drive while impaired ---- ?

WOW!
Really dude? I hear that from cops on the news, or someone who has no clue about pot.

Shaggy referred to someone with metabolites of thc in his blood, not someone who 'is impaired.'

you know, it will stay in your system for a month or more if you're even a light user.

but you should know that.

so you miss that on purpose so shaggy will sound more 'stupid'?

besides, pot does not make you drunk. something non users can never understand so i get them saying this stuff, but when cannabis folks start using anti pot and cop propaganda we got problems

 

[SooperSmurph]

WOW!
Really dude? I hear that from cops on the news, or someone who has no clue about pot.

Shaggy referred to someone with metabolites of thc in his blood, not someone who 'is impaired.'

you know, it will stay in your system for a month or more if you're even a light user.

but you should know that.

so you miss that on purpose so shaggy will sound more 'stupid'?

besides, pot does not make you drunk. something non users can never understand so i get them saying this stuff, but when cannabis folks start using anti pot and cop propaganda we got problems

I got sick of my tolerance being so high, and took a two month break. After being hospitalized on a non-related issue, I was informed that my blood still tested at TWICE the level they recognized as a heavy daily user. Meanwhile, I haven't felt "high" since... 2012, when I had my first overly large dab.

 

[shaggyballs]

Why is it you guys never respond to the real issues at hand.

I see a dancing contest, not a real world debate.
Just dancing around all the tough questions.
HMMM

I know I am not the only one, most just get fed up and leave.
Well I will be here to defend what is right.

Jhhnn you may have your pony in CO.
Do you not think your efforts could be spent better on getting a pony in every state, or is CO just special.

I think all states deserve a pony Jhhnn, will you help them get one or just laugh cause you got yours, so screw the rest of us???

That is a strange way to think....is it not??
This kind of attitude is why I say VOTE NO OR ELSE!

Now If all states get a pony I say " VOTE YES"!

Please no more dancing.
shag


P.S. Legalization without home growing is not even a form of legalization.
It is about $$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[Jhhnn]

I would have said he's smarter than to get tangled up in this "debate" that seems to be all on your terms. Where are you going with this? I-502 isn't something we're trying to hash out and get right, it's here. The thread, as I understand it, is about the potential for legalization in other states. Jhhnn's point seemed to be that Washington's approach was farther from the ideal model than Colorado's, so ... you all would advocate something closer to Colorado's legalization structure, am I right?

As for trying to discredit people by saying they sound like shills, cops, etc., and then protesting that you didn't say they ARE shills, cops, etc. ... you hide behind a semantic technicality like a moose hiding behind a sapling. Can't see us? We can see you.

Pretty much.

I figure the only reason retail cannabis exists in WA is I502, that the legislature wouldn't have done it on their own. Politicians are sometimes stuck following the will of the electorate if for no reason other than getting re-elected.

The people asked for it & got it. I figure they could have had more if they'd asked for it. I figure that certain erroneous assumptions left the legislature more latitude than what the people really wanted.

It's obvious that this patchwork legalization is the way forward, just as it has been with MMJ. In that, for sure, we'll see different ways of accomplishing the basic goal, which is legal possession & use of cannabis. WA accomplishes that, if barely.

OTOH, it's important to try to keep everybody honest, particularly the big guys, so it's important for people to be able to legally obtain cannabis through different mechanisms, beginning with personal growing. I502 obviously doesn't accomplish that.

As this unfolds, we'll see a variety of interests try to structure it to their advantage in ways that are not honest. We'll see a lot of mistakes & manipulations. We'll see a lot of changes in the opening of a new era.

What I can say for sure is that states legalizing since 2012 have blessedly followed the CO model rather than the WA model, more or less, and that we won't be going back. It's far from perfect, but it works, and it's the best so far.