Vote NO to legalize cannabis....Or else

[Jhhnn]

What I meant to say about tobacco is that there is no illegal market at the grower level. I figured anybody not intent on deliberate obtusity would understand that. My mistake.

 

[Jhhnn]

I haven't heard anyone that is not in favor of legalization. I also am not aware of any place that currently has or proposes legalization.

In other words, you'll define day as night if it suits your purposes, stick to it as if it's not absurd.

There's a new retail pot shop a few blocks from my house. You know, a storefront with a big marijuana leaf & an advertising banner. I can walk right in, buy an ounce of pot, carry it openly in my hand on the way back home. I could put it in a ziplock, tie it around my neck & walk into the copshop w/o fear of fine or arrest. Explain how that's not legalization.

 

[ElusiveQuark]

In other words, you'll define day as night if it suits your purposes, stick to it as if it's not absurd.

There's a new retail pot shop a few blocks from my house. You know, a storefront with a big marijuana leaf & an advertising banner. I can walk right in, buy an ounce of pot, carry it openly in my hand on the way back home. I could put it in a ziplock, tie it around my neck & walk into the copshop w/o fear of fine or arrest. Explain how that's not legalization.

Can you smoke it on your way home? Can you possess any quantity you chose? Can you grow what amount you see fit? Can you sell your ounce to a friend? Can you mail it to someone in CA? Are you subject to arrest by Feds?

 

[z-ro]

Completely wrong-headed. Producers of a legal product demand much lower margins than black marketeers, simply because they compete with each other & have no legal risk. They also enjoy enormous economies of scale. The current price of marijuana is what it is because of limited supply & access.

I'll give you an example. Tobacco, a very labor intensive product, currently fetches growers $2/lb- hand cut, bundled & delivered. There is, consequently, no black market tobacco to speak of. At that, it's one of the most lucrative crops in terms of $/acre in tobacco growing regions.

Decrim merely maintains the black market & all the graft, raving & law enforcement around it. In a legal environment, nobody's waiting around for your flaky cousin Jimmy to show up so that they can score underweight bags of weed grown with God only knows what sort of chemicals, either. Before a helluva lot longer, the low price of legal weed will put him out of business anyway. Expect legal $100 ounces in CO over the next year with people making money selling 'em.

Nope. The only reason any states want to legalize is because they want to make money off it, once they're done taxing and regulating the majority of the profit into their hands, and demand drops, the state is going to end up, in the long run, with way less tax dollars than it was expecting, thus making it a failure financially. Take Oregon for example, if their bill passes it calls for a 35 dollar per ounce 'privilege tax' to be paid by the producer. That's 560 dollars per pound tax just for having the privilege to do business, those are the exact words from the bill. Well, good luck with that, by then California outdoor black market will be at 50$ per oz you all can keep anything that costs more than that. Some businesses in certain states will turn a small profit if the market supports people with no friends can go buy weed from the store, but the majority will not pay the extra price that will come with a taxed regulated product thus the black market will continue to thrive. GOod luck trying to sell an ounce for 100 bucks come 2017, even at 100 bucks a lb you'll be making money in Cali.

 

[Jhhnn]

Can you smoke it on your way home?

No. I can't drink alcohol on the street, either. OTOH, I can smoke it on my front porch.

Can you possess any quantity you chose?

At home.

Can you grow what amount you see fit?

Whatever we can harvest from 6 flowering plants. Gettogro gets 3 lbs/plant every 4.5 months.

Can you sell your ounce to a friend?

I give it to my friends. perfectly legal.

Can you mail it to someone in CA?

CA is not CO.

Are you subject to arrest by Feds?

No. I'm not in violation of federal enforcement guidelines.

You still haven't said how that's not legalization in terms that normal people would understand.

 

[Jhhnn]

Nope. The only reason any states want to legalize is because they want to make money off it, once they're done taxing and regulating the majority of the profit into their hands, and demand drops, the state is going to end up, in the long run, with way less tax dollars than it was expecting, thus making it a failure financially. Take Oregon for example, if their bill passes it calls for a 35 dollar per ounce 'privilege tax' to be paid by the producer. That's 560 dollars per pound tax just for having the privilege to do business, those are the exact words from the bill. Well, good luck with that, by then California outdoor black market will be at 50$ per oz you all can keep anything that costs more than that. Some businesses in certain states will turn a small profit if the market supports people with no friends can go buy weed from the store, but the majority will not pay the extra price that will come with a taxed regulated product thus the black market will continue to thrive. GOod luck trying to sell an ounce for 100 bucks come 2017, even at 100 bucks a lb you'll be making money in Cali.

In CO, the state didn't want to legalize, the people did. It's taxed twice on a % basis- once as it passes from the grower, then again at the retail sale level. Those % are all adjustable, iirc. If an ounce of pot sells for $5, the state collects their piece based on that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Oh- I forgot to mention that the 1 oz purchase limit applies to all marijuana products, like dry sift & shatter as well.

 

[z-ro]

Exactly, who wants to pay for an item that's total value is almost 50% tax. Yea the people wanted it, the state let it happen cause they wanted the money, end of story. And when they are getting taxes off 5 dollar ounces they will be kicking theirselves in the asses that it was all for nothing, that much is certain lol. Like I said CO market is gonna collapse like an la free way overpass in a 9.0 earthquake. I can buy 8 ounces of shatter at a time currently, don't know why anyone would need more than that.

 

[Jhhnn]

Exactly, who wants to pay for an item that's total value is almost 50% tax. Yea the people wanted it, the state let it happen cause they wanted the money, end of story. And when they are getting taxes off 5 dollar ounces they will be kicking theirselves in the asses that it was all for nothing, that much is certain lol. Like I said CO market is gonna collapse like an la free way overpass in a 9.0 earthquake. I can buy 8 ounces of shatter at a time currently, don't know why anyone would need more than that.

Even with taxes, CO retail weed is competitively priced wrt black market weed. The % going towards taxes doesn't really matter to tokers so long as the price is right. Expect it to get more right as competition heats up. CO retail tokers take pride in the fact that the cartels aren't getting their money, not to mention the sheer safety & convenience of buying in retail settings all over the state. Everybody from everywhere automatically has a connection most anywhere in the state. It takes away the excitement & adventure of trying to score in a strange place from strange people you don't even know, probably in an East Colfax type dive. I say that as a former connoisseur of East Colfax dives.

In agreeing to paying high taxes on pot, colorado tokers got on the right side of the law, put retail providers there as well. That's the part that really matters the most. So long as cash paying demand exists, legal business will find a way to profit from it. Whatever sum the state collects doesn't really matter in that context. Well, not to anybody other than the state.

I'll agree that we face an over supply when all these licensed growers come online. At that point, we'll have a huge shakeout, one of those capitalistic things. We'll find a new normal after that, one where we can always get weed & stoners are bust proof when following what are pretty agreeable rules to the vast majority. They don't really care who grows their weed, and people who just legally grow their own don't have much reason to care, either. That's what keeps everybody honest, the legally grow your own part.

 

[z-ro]

So that's why your marijuana enforcement division just issued a statement that retail cannabis is too highly taxed and nobody is buying it but out of staters that have no choice?? I can email you the copy my attorney sent me if you like...

Cartels in colorado weed game? Few and far between on the street level. Didn't they just bust a bunch of legal stores cause they were all paid for via cartel money? Oh but nobody bought weed there right? Sounds like all your logic just went out the window...

At least you agree your market will be over supplied, which will be an understatement to say the least come 2-4 years from now when nobody is buying your half assed merch and the state is raking in 1% of its original projected revenues. Everyone thinks legalization is such a gold mine, the reality is, it's not.

 

[monsoon]

Jhhhhnnnnn.... Please move to California so you can speak in an educated manner about Colorado's pot scene like everyone else in this thread.

By living here and experiencing it all in person, it's obvious you don't know what the Hell yer talking about.

 

[Jhhnn]

So that's why your marijuana enforcement division just issued a statement that retail cannabis is too highly taxed and nobody is buying it but out of staters that have no choice?? I can email you the copy my attorney sent me if you like...

Exaggeration-

http://www.denverpost.com/carroll/ci_26174929/why-colorado-pot-tax-revenue-is-low

It's important to remember that basically 90% of everything sold in mountain towns is sold to tourists, particularly in the winter.

Cartels in colorado weed game? Few and far between on the street level. Didn't they just bust a bunch of legal stores cause they were all paid for via cartel money? Oh but nobody bought weed there right? Sounds like all your logic just went out the window...

Mexibrick has long been a staple for CO tokers, particularly in the Hispanic community. Depends on who you know. It's the bargain brand. It's changed over the years & is largely indistinguishable from CA outdoor. Old Mexican lines have been replaced with modern fast flowering hybrids.

The Uribe clan has been driven out of the business because of their connections to the Florida underworld, not because of any connection to Mexican cartels-

http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2013/11/marijuana_dea_pot_raids_colorado_tony_montana.php

At least you agree your market will be over supplied, which will be an understatement to say the least come 2-4 years from now when nobody is buying your half assed merch and the state is raking in 1% of its original projected revenues. Everyone thinks legalization is such a gold mine, the reality is, it's not.

You're not quite getting the point. Legalized retail marijuana is here to stay, regardless of tax revenues or how baldly disconnected projections are from actual sales. It's also important to remember that large growers enjoy economies of scale & can therefore sell cheaper than mom & pops. That's particularly true wrt greenhouses, which I see as the wave of the future. Outfits with strong capitalization & long range business plans will survive & prosper if they can get it right. Other than closet grower prejudice, there's no reason to think they can't get it right.

Of course the Biz is currently full of dreamers & schemers- it's a bubble of speculation like many before it, like the Dutch tulipomania or the "Ownership Society". I never claimed any different. They're all just coming online right about now, retail growing having only begun in January. It all changes again come Oct 1 when retailers will no longer need to grow their own at all.

There's no reason to think that pricing, med or rec, will be sustainable at current levels. Price cutting looms large in our future, for a couple of reasons. Big growers with strong capitalization & business plans are in it for the long haul, so they'll do it to capture market share. They can afford to do so- it's part of the plan. Others will do it because they have to in order to move product at all, even if it's just cutting their losses as a prelude to going titsup.

Expect Rec weed to be cheaper (bottom line for consumers) than Med weed rather shortly, even with high taxes. Just because a person has a med card doesn't mean they'll buy med weed when rec weed of the same quality is cheaper.

Few observers understand that some outfits have very, very deep pockets in relative terms & are in this for the long haul, looking beyond our little market well into the future of legalization nationwide. They're prepared to lose millions over the short haul building expertise, developing their strains, their brands, their products, their marketing & distribution networks. It's venture capitalism by people who can easily afford to lose a few $M or even a few $10M over the next several years in return for a lot more in profit down the road. They're shrewd gamblers with a history of winning & I doubt this will be much different.

I have no place in all of that, but it's interesting to watch it all go by, recognizing that black market & quasi black market rules & conceptualizations no longer apply. Anybody who holds onto them will eventually realize that they were mistaken in doing so. As you say, it's all in flux, but I doubt that it'll turn out to be anything other than a lot better overall.

It's also interesting to observe the different headsets, particularly among stakeholders in the current system. More than a few will lose out, one way or another. There's some denial in that, I think, particularly in the nay-saying & negativity around legalization. Attitudinal contradictions abound, often an artifact of the MMJ game. Avowed Libertarians played the game, a contradiction in and of itself, but now decry a new system where the game is no longer necessary, where greater personal integrity is possible. Whether it's true or not, CO users don't have to say that they "need their medicine"- we can just say we get high because we like it, claim it as a civil right on that basis alone. The difference is utterly profound, particularly in the way that society views marijuana users. Legalization shows that it's already changed, that recreational pot smoking has been accepted as mainstream in CO. That cuts both ways. Pot smoking has always been a badge of the counter culture carrying some outlaw mystique. Some of us will miss that, some will even try very hard to hold onto it.

 

[z-ro]

Ok buddy what ever you say. I'm not against a form of legalization, just the current 'all we care about is the money' form that co will realize they failed at. Have fun buying 90 dollar grams of shat-ter made from shitty ass trim from plants hit with paclobutrazol. I've spent plenty of time in CO, not missing a thing...

 

[JointOperation]

I'm just going to say my piece and be done with this bull shit.

Anyone who speaks against legalization is one of these things:
1. Absofuckinglutely confused to the point beyond stupidity
2. Profiting from the current illegality

lol.. ignorance is BLISS

 

[Jhhnn]

Ok buddy what ever you say. I'm not against a form of legalization, just the current 'all we care about is the money' form that co will realize they failed at. Have fun buying 90 dollar grams of shat-ter made from shitty ass trim from plants hit with paclobutrazol. I've spent plenty of time in CO, not missing a thing...

I'm trying to figure out how you can claim we'll be paying high prices during a product glut, something you claim will def happen.

Paclo? You made me giggle with your reflexive negativity & all the pom-pom waving for your team. Go ahead, tell me that CA basement growers don't use paclo or that you can tell from what's on the shelf.

CO plans on mandatory testing of retail products for contaminants rather shortly & I doubt they'll overlook paclo. Dunno that they'll allow the stuff, but if they do it'll be on the label. There's a rather long list of prohibited chemicals here, R504 F-

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellit...goBlobs&blobwhere=1251928365541&ssbinary=true

Finding any of that stuff on the premises or in the product is pretty much hammer time, I suspect.

Where's your list, & how the Hell would anybody know, anyway?

 

[LSWM]

Jhhhhnnnnn.... Please move to California so you can speak in an educated manner about Colorado's pot scene like everyone else in this thread.

By living here and experiencing it all in person, it's obvious you don't know what the Hell yer talking about.

I lol'd. There's so much truth here, the bit you overlooked is that everyone in this thread from Cali knows that less regulation is better. Everyone in CO keeps touting the "this is as good as it gets" attitude.

 

[budtang]

What does the "limited size of land to populate" have to do with any of this?

Seriously? That was the entire motivation behind Colorado's law restricting residential growers from obtaining licenses. It literally has EVERYTHING to do with this discussion. For 40 pages this has been discussed and you still don't know what the topic of discussion has been this entire time. Please stop posting and start reading what people are talking about before going on these rants. It's a waste of time reading your posts. Everything else you posted was another off topic rant that I won't even bother quoting.

 

[JointOperation]

the prices as at the best they have ever been for buyers.. but not for the growers lol. i remember before i started growing.. if u wanted the best of the best.. the people who want the BEST IM TALKING 400-700 AN OZ for FLOWERS.. all these young kids don't KNOW SHIT ABOUT HIGH PRICES.. go bitch about your 40-50 $ 8th.. wen a few years back.. it was 60-80 for a 8th..

i say this all the time.. if ur not growing and ur smoking a lot. then BUY ALOT.. stop dicking around and saying i cant afford to when ur spending 50$ an 8th.. 400 an oz.. instead of buying an oz for 280 an saving that 120.. nope.. too impatient and retarded to stop smoking for a few days.. and save the money to get yourself a GOOD DEAL.. lol..

me personally i believe the drinking age should be raised to 25 ...... that says a lot about who i am as a person.. i think anyone before 25.. isn't mature enough to even drink a beer.. nevermind go out and get wasted and behind the wheel thinking "im OK"!!

 

[monsoon]

Well these pot laws....meant ONLY to control the population (LOL, good one) didn't do a very good job of "controlling population" then...did it, Mr List Cop?
LOFL. you are so lost in your understanding of it all. Cali-lost! Rents AND population are rising here as we speak...as they have for the last 25 YEARS...LONG BEFORE weed came on the scene. (OK, the weed has always been here...the weed circus, has not) This state is booming again...and it isn't >all< about weed. As proof...lotsa towns don't even have rec sales yet...8 months after the law passed allowing it. My valley included. (5 towns)

Oh..yeah...but we all know that it's more about "population control" than pot...right? (rolls eyes) You should seen the line of U-Hauls headin out of town when folks realized "No rec pot?" Completely killed the entire population here. wanna buy a house? they are all empty now that there's no weed sales here...LOL. Thankfully there are folks like you who can keep us informed as to what is going on in our own towns/neighborhoods and WHY certain laws were passed.

LOL JO. And then there's the risk factor they've missed out on. It's all so easy now anyone can do it...and that is why they are here ...just like Mr. List Cop.

 

[catbuds]

I never expected perfection to be there right at the beginning of legalization. I expected all sorts of stupidity that would need rectified. Kind of like the first generation of new technology. It gets better over time. Knowing the greed of the government, I expected it to be over taxed. But..... I also expect all the negatives to come out in the wash. I must say, it didn't start out as bad as I expected.
- When you want changes & improvments, petition for it! Bring it to your legislators. If a large enough number of people hound them long enough for the same changes, change will eventually happen. Its better to hound them than each other, right? After all, aren't we all on the same team?
- My point is, work for change. We got out foot in the door with legalization. Lets just work to improve what we got instead of kicking each other in the teeth. I'm not from Co, but I say 'we' because Co is the first step for ALL if us here in the US. Still a big shit load of improvements & work to be done. We need team players!