Vote NO to legalize cannabis....Or else

[budtang]

Dunno about LA. I'm talking about towns in the mountains in Colorado

Why would you be talking about Colorado when you responded to my posts regarding California laws specifically? You're not making any sense. Did you read my original post? I'm not talking about Colorado, guy.

Maybe, I should've clarified that I was talking about California, but it seemed obvious to me. When I say, "the number of dispensaries decreased because of laws" it's pretty obvious I'm not talking about Colorado, where restrictions on the number of grow licenses issued were recently lifted. The point of our little discussion was whether, or not California will adopt Colorado's laws. Not what the market trends of Colorado are in comparison to California.

The laws in your state are designed to control the population and for that reason your state's laws likely won't be adopted by larger states who don't have a need to limit the population.

...and Colorado in general. Folks here have seen dispensaries pop up and disappear in large numbers...and I don't know anyone at this point in time who was a skilled grower who is >still< doing the licensing/retail thing. Most got burned/burned out/taken advantage of when the medical thing was exploding in the first green rush in 2009.

I highly doubt the market trends of a state with 5 million people are comparable to a state with 38 million people. Colorado isn't in any a way a reflection of what will happen in states with larger populations. It truly is a tiny little "experiment." To be honest, it's probably the worst state to conduct such an experiment given the limited size of land to populate. I don't blame Colorado, of course. The Federal Government is liable for all the problems this will cause for Colorado by not legalizing it on a national level when 33 out 50 states have approved some form of legalization. Right now Federal Law is being dictated by 17 fucking states in a system where the majority is supposed to be represented when political decisions are made. The "experiment" is over.

I know dozens of people who have absolutely no interest in taking the time to grow weed. They would rather buy the finished product in a retail environment. These are people who have grown weed, too. The vast majority of weed smokers in the world are that way. They don't want to work 50 hours a week, have kids to take care of, bills, wife, etc. and then after all that water plants. Any bit of work is undesirable for the average Joe. Even if that work is merely watering and tending to a few plants in a closet.

This is why people don't brew their own beer. Just because you can do it doesn't mean that people will do it. The fact of the matter is...most weed smokers simply will not grow their own weed.

Fans of high-priced pot and corporate control (you?) are in heaven. LOL.

I'm a fan of corporate control because I believe residents should be allowed to grow for retail out of their homes and compete against bigger operations? Again, you're not making a single bit of sense. The regulations I'm proposing would cause prices to drop. You're the one defending a big system that allows guys like that Subway shop owner to be the only participants in the industry. It's amazing how you're criticizing your own system and simultaneously defending it. You don't seem like you're a smart guy. You're not comprehending what I'm saying and you're not comprehending what your saying before you post it.

The regulations you're speaking in defense of are the regulations that are causing those high prices that you're whining about. Talking to you is like showing a creationist evidence of evolution. There is no logic in anything you have to say on the subject.

P.S. People like Subway guy will probably realize there is more of stable profit in wholesale purchasing from small craft growers who produce a better product. The profit margins per pound won't be as large as the dispensary owner who grows his stock himself, but that's irrelevant when the pounds are a better a quality that is guaranteed to sell and produce a profit. These dispensaries keep closing because they're not producing a good enough product. Not because there isn't a market.

the drama is caused by the folks posting about CO who don't live in CO to know what they are talking about. That's the message I keep getting.

The drama is caused by people who are tired of the low quality, overpriced, pesticide covered weed your state is producing, as a result of your laws. Resident, or not. It's caused by people who would like to pay taxes on the weed they grow in their homes. As opposed to participating in the black market.

It's justified drama being criticized by a bunch of Colorado residents who simply can't make a good point in defense of it.Other than, "Oh well, laws are better than Oklahoma."

 

[Jhhnn]

I hear your appreciation for Hickenhooper's difficult position of implementing important legislation of which he is not a fan. However, he does disparage cannabis in a very open way and does not appear to be as openminded as you suggest. See e.g. http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2012/09/john_hickenlooper_amendment_64_marijuana.php. This article quotes him as saying "amendment 64 has the potential to increase the number of children using drugs and keep Colorado from being the healthiest state in the country." He also says he would never use pot even if he was alone in the woods. These statements are not intended to help the cause. He is clearly anti-pot. His statements show that he blows with the wind given his open support for Fracking in CO, his former ownership of taverns and his previous use of pot. He failed to file suit when it was shown that oil companies injected millions of gallons of diesel into CO soil despite their pledge not to do so. He is a puppet. Jhhnn, so you seem to be an advocate for big business and government. And someone who also grows dope. Is that a fair assessment?

I'm just a Realist. I reject Libertopian ravings as just that, proponents as well propagandized irrational believers in fantasy, promulgated by America's wealthiest fascist leaning citizens through their mouthpieces at Cato, Heritage, Faux News & a plethora of other astroturfing organizations. If you think they want you to be "Free!" you've got shit for brains. Free to starve & freeze in a land of plenty is more like it.

Hickenlooper has done an honest job of implementing A64 regardless of his own views. He too is a Realist, just one with greater misgivings than my own wrt cannabis. He lacks intimacy with the subject, as do a lot of people, and has been subjected to prohibitionist propaganda his whole life. He's always been a strong advocate for health, education & child welfare, so his views wrt underage users are consistent with that if overblown from my own POV. If anything, legalization will reduce accessibility to teens rather than increasing it. Dope dealers don't card anybody last time I checked. Read about his current views here-

http://www.celebstoner.com/news/mar...tie-courics-interview-with-gov.-hickenlooper/

That might have been different had A64 been as sloppily & poorly written as Washington's I-502. Few people appreciate just how utterly brilliant & far reaching A64 really is. No matter what happens at the retail level, CO authorities have been stripped of the right to arrest people for small scale possession & cultivation. Only a vote of the people can change that, about as likely as seeing a formation of flying pigs overhead.

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if it weren't for big business & big government. The hardware, infrastructure & power are manifestations of a much higher level of organization than Libertopians seem to appreciate. That's the same wrt commerce, sanitation (imagine no sewers or sewage treatment plants), paved roads, money, medicine & you name it.

Modern life can seem overwhelming at times, no doubt, and we're currently having problems adjusting our headsets to the fact that automation has replaced the necessity of work for many but not the necessity of income for participation in the economy.

I just try to be grateful for what I have, acknowledge that luck has played a part in that, as have both govt & big biz. Figure out how that plays into this narrative-

Rather shortly, I'm going to water my little pissant indoor grow with water from the tap, under the lights that came from a factory along with the fans, filters, pots & soil made available to me by big biz. That's in a house we own outright, thanks to a mortgage we took out over 20 years ago. Meanwhile, the big evaporative cooler is making the place more livable with water & power from the same big biz sources. Before I go out, I'll get dressed in factory made clothes, shave with a disposable razor. When I do, I'll drive my safety equipped pollution controlled automobile across paved roads with stop lights to the grocery store for some USDA inspected meat, produce & personal hygiene items, brought to me from all over the country & the world.

Meanwhile, my grown children have received what really is a good public school education & are attending a State university, transported there using public transit. I'm paying for it all with money from investment in govt regulated securities. I worked my whole life to be able to retire using SS & a pension from a union job maintaining those public transit vehicles mentioned earlier.

Everybody should have it so good, & you won't find any of it in Libertopia.

 

[shaggyballs]

I'm just a Realist. I reject Libertopian ravings as just that, proponents as well propagandized irrational believers in fantasy, promulgated by America's wealthiest fascist leaning citizens through their mouthpieces at Cato, Heritage, Faux News & a plethora of other astroturfing organizations. If you think they want you to be "Free!" you've got shit for brains. Free to starve & freeze in a land of plenty is more like it.

Your views seem very similar to what you preach you are against!
You seem to be against the idea though.
Just because one speaks freedom does not lop that person in a specific category automatically ..One should not stereotype.
What do you refer to yourself as Rep. , Dem...what....and that is where you stand why?

You say none of the politicians want freedom...yet you will support what you feel is the lesser of the evils of the world.
I support freedom not a political group.

I simply state stand for your own freedom....do not let others do it for you or hide behind them!

Hickenlooper has done an honest job of implementing A64 regardless of his own views. He too is a Realist, just one with greater misgivings than my own wrt cannabis. He lacks intimacy with the subject, as do a lot of people, and has been subjected to prohibitionist propaganda his whole life. He's always been a strong advocate for health, education & child welfare, so his views wrt underage users are consistent with that if overblown from my own POV. If anything, legalization will reduce accessibility to teens rather than increasing it. Dope dealers don't card anybody last time I checked. Read about his current views here-

http://www.celebstoner.com/news/mar...tie-courics-interview-with-gov.-hickenlooper/

That might have been different had A64 been as sloppily & poorly written as Washington's I-502. Few people appreciate just how utterly brilliant & far reaching A64 really is. No matter what happens at the retail level, CO authorities have been stripped of the right to arrest people for small scale possession & cultivation. Only a vote of the people can change that, about as likely as seeing a formation of flying pigs overhead.

The government has never changed a law against the will of the people???...I see them do it all the time!!

Prepare the flying pigs!!!

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if it weren't for big business & big government. The hardware, infrastructure & power are manifestations of a much higher level of organization than Libertopians seem to appreciate. That's the same wrt commerce, sanitation (imagine no sewers or sewage treatment plants), paved roads, money, medicine & you name it.

How did man ever make it this far without indoor plumbing???
The stuff that you state are of importantce to you are merely for convenience.
You would give up your freedom for that.

Modern life can seem overwhelming at times, no doubt, and we're currently having problems adjusting our headsets to the fact that automation has replaced the necessity of work for many but not the necessity of income for participation in the economy.

I just try to be grateful for what I have, acknowledge that luck has played a part in that, as have both govt & big biz. Figure out how that plays into this narrative-

Rather shortly, I'm going to water my little pissant indoor grow with water from the tap, under the lights that came from a factory along with the fans, filters, pots & soil made available to me by big biz. That's in a house we own outright, thanks to a mortgage we took out over 20 years ago. Meanwhile, the big evaporative cooler is making the place more livable with water & power from the same big biz sources. Before I go out, I'll get dressed in factory made clothes, shave with a disposable razor. When I do, I'll drive my safety equipped Like the one my friends 80 yr old mom drove off the side of a mountain cause the ignition switch locked the steering wheel ?pollution controlled automobile across paved roads with stop lights to the grocery store for some USDA inspected meat, produce & personal hygiene items, brought to me from all over the country & the world.

Forgive me for saying this....but you sound a bit pampered.

Some of us do not need personal hygiene items, brought to me from all over the country & the world.
Some prefer freedom to trinkets.

And you are referring to irradiated beef provide to us by the USDA.
The same agency that allows chickens to be grown with no beaks and what about pink slime??

Feed us drugs that need to be removed from the market after they find out what the real dangers are after the public has consumed it for a while!

AS you would say...manifestations of a much higher level of organization than Jhhnn seems to appreciate.

Meanwhile, my grown children have received what really is a good public school education & are attending a State university,

And are they having their heads filled with lies like the rest of were!

transported there using public transit. I'm paying for it all with money from investment in govt regulated securities.

Stocks are gambling just by definition!

I worked my whole life to be able to retire using SS & a pension from a union job maintaining those public transit vehicles mentioned earlier.

Many folks were never given the pension they were promised, and you may or may not get social security or your pension.
How would you feel about the current situation if this was your reality like many others have endured?

I see you are heavily relying on the government to make a nice life for you.

Everybody should have it so good, & you won't find any of it in Libertopia.

Where should we be looking?

 

[z-ro]

The fact of the matter is, and I've always maintained this view for a long time now, is that a legal taxed and regulated product will always be too expensive to compete with the black market, thus legalize for sale of big biz will fail economically,(soon to see in CO), which is the only reason any states are gonna do it anyways. Legalization for sale is and will always be a failure, decrim is the only way.

 

[monsoon]

What does the "limited size of land to populate" have to do with any of this? you act as if all there is to do/the only reason to live on CO is pot. Wayyy wrong. Nobody who lives here cares as much about pot as those who don't live here and speculate about our laws and "scene" do. Guaranteed. (Ok..yer friends from Cali who moved here in droves to crank out that warehouse/pesticide weed you seem to know so much about may care) As Jhnnn said...water availability is far more limiting here than land availability. Lotsa "dry" land for sale out there. Can't grow anything on it though.

But lookin in at LA and some of your counties pot laws is even scarier than looking in at CO to me. Bans on outdoor and indoor grows...wow...really? And you say things are screwed here? Those rights are solid here. Evidently..not so there. It's comin...(the wake up call) you just don't see it. Talk about me not knowing fuck... LOL. You are merely operating from an outdated view. New times are coming. You will love it.

but hey- what do I know? LOL. Good luck

 

[shaggyballs]

It is hard to believe it is so difficult to convince Americans that FREEDOM is a good thing!

I like this so I stole it from ElusiveQuark

I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

 

[armedoldhippy]

The fact of the matter is, and I've always maintained this view for a long time now, is that a legal taxed and regulated product will always be too expensive to compete with the black market, thus legalize for sale of big biz will fail economically,(soon to see in CO), which is the only reason any states are gonna do it anyways. Legalization for sale is and will always be a failure, decrim is the only way.

actually, with the price of sugar, copper, etc what it is right now, alcohol (moonshine) is cheaper to buy at a package store than make yourself. the liquor industry gets such a huge discount by buying the volumes of each that they do that country folks really cannot compete on a dollar by dollar level. that said, the demand for shine aint going down because lots of folks will pay more for it just to get the satisfaction of knowing that the damn govt aint getting a penny of taxes from their purchase...

 

[Jhhnn]

The government has never changed a law against the will of the people???...I see them do it all the time!!

Prepare the flying pigs!!!

Your lame raving is quite tedious. Amendment 64 is part of the Colorado State Constitution which can only be changed by a vote of the People.

The rest of your commentary is much the same, sad to say.

 

[bentom187]

I'm just a Realist. I reject Libertopian ravings as just that, proponents as well propagandized irrational believers in fantasy, promulgated by America's wealthiest fascist leaning citizens through their mouthpieces at Cato, Heritage, Faux News & a plethora of other astroturfing organizations. If you think they want you to be "Free!" you've got shit for brains. Free to starve & freeze in a land of plenty is more like it.

Umm yeah, I don't think you know what fascism is because that's only achieved through a large national socialist government. You know the thing libertarians are against But nice try. And Cato and the rest are barley what you would call libertarian although there may be a few individuals whom may consider themselves that. Big government or starve and freeze those are your only two options in life lol. As if there is no one experiencing all three today.

It seems like they stop any attempts for real charity to those who are starving and freezing.

Police Threaten to Arrest Group for Feeding Homeless Breakfast…Something It Has Done for the Past Six Years

Feeding The Homeless BANNED In Major Cities All Over America

Church Group Members Threatened With Arrest for Handing Out Biscuits, Coffee to the Homeless

This conversation wouldn't be taking place if it weren't for big business & big government. The hardware, infrastructure & power are manifestations of a much higher level of organization than Libertopians seem to appreciate. That's the same wrt commerce, sanitation (imagine no sewers or sewage treatment plants), paved roads, money, medicine & you name it..

The organization is achieved through force and coercion not enlightened beings providing all the wants and needs of life. There is something called the mob they can provide the same services using the same methods. Stealing for their funding in the form of a tax or protection money, threatening people into compliance with fines or imprisonment although I don't think the mob would be as wasteful and probably just injure you instead.

Meanwhile, my grown children have received what really is a good public school education & are attending a State university, transported there using public transit. I'm paying for it all with money from investment in govt regulated securities. I worked my whole life to be able to retire using SS & a pension from a union job maintaining those public transit vehicles mentioned earlier.

Everybody should have it so good, & you won't find any of it in Libertopia.

Jhhnn we can have it better through free market capitalism, none of what you just mentioned is denied to anyone. There would be schools roads and all that just provided by an actual demand and done so in a more efficient cost effective manner. I think all of us want that. You don't need government to contract it out as middlemen to private entities for us, or labor unions which constrain the investment of private capital. Which is the cause of prosperity.

 

[Snow Crash]

I'm just going to say my piece and be done with this bull shit.

Anyone who speaks against legalization is one of these things:
1. Absofuckinglutely confused to the point beyond stupidity
2. Profiting from the current illegality

 

[Jhhnn]

The fact of the matter is, and I've always maintained this view for a long time now, is that a legal taxed and regulated product will always be too expensive to compete with the black market, thus legalize for sale of big biz will fail economically,(soon to see in CO), which is the only reason any states are gonna do it anyways. Legalization for sale is and will always be a failure, decrim is the only way.

Completely wrong-headed. Producers of a legal product demand much lower margins than black marketeers, simply because they compete with each other & have no legal risk. They also enjoy enormous economies of scale. The current price of marijuana is what it is because of limited supply & access.

I'll give you an example. Tobacco, a very labor intensive product, currently fetches growers $2/lb- hand cut, bundled & delivered. There is, consequently, no black market tobacco to speak of. At that, it's one of the most lucrative crops in terms of $/acre in tobacco growing regions.

Decrim merely maintains the black market & all the graft, raving & law enforcement around it. In a legal environment, nobody's waiting around for your flaky cousin Jimmy to show up so that they can score underweight bags of weed grown with God only knows what sort of chemicals, either. Before a helluva lot longer, the low price of legal weed will put him out of business anyway. Expect legal $100 ounces in CO over the next year with people making money selling 'em.

 

[shaggyballs]

bentom187
seems to be the most educated of us all on these very touchy subjects!

Yet his information is greatly ignored by those who choose to turn a blind eye.
why?

Will anyone have the guts to stand up to a man as informed as he is?
Consider this a challenge to those who pick only the easy posts to reply to.

 

[bentom187]

I'm not going to post the video its pretty F'ed up. But this statement is not entirely accurate.

There is, consequently, no black market tobacco to speak of.

Staten Island man dies after NYPD cop puts him in chokehold — SEE THE VIDEO

Police officials said Garner had a history of arrests for selling untaxed cigarettes. Cops said they observed him selling his wares Thursday on Bay St. and moved in for an arrest.

Can anyone see this headline in the future :

"Police officials said Garner had a history of arrests for selling untaxed cannabis. Cops said they observed him selling his wares Thursday on Bay St. and moved in for an arrest."

 

[ElusiveQuark]

There is a huge black market for cigarettes that come from Russia and China. Here is example. http://www.cigline.net/?action=news&discount=cigarettes&news=6. They don't taste the same. I remember seeing craigslist ads.

 

[shaggyballs]

Your lame raving is quite tedious. Amendment 64 is part of the Colorado State Constitution which can only be changed by a vote of the People.
Is this what history has shown us?
The rest of your commentary is much the same, sad to say.

What is the real tragedy is:
People who believe the government needs the vote of the people to do what it wants....Now that makes me LOL

Do you really believe the government needs your vote to do what they want.....I will try not to resort to poor debate tactics like personal attacks as they are not helpful and are child like!

Much like an election this thread has turned into a mudslinging contest!

Only the foolhardy think this will be productive.

If we stand against the most powerful force in the world together we will prevail!!

If we continue to remain divided and make things into a personal issue of mudslinging we will undoubtedly fail!

Tell me what do you think is a more viable solution to the problem?

Ok those who can not contribute to a healthy debate, may now resume the personal attacks!!

 

[bentom187]

bentom187
seems to be the most educated of us all on these very touchy subjects!

Yet his information is greatly ignored by those who choose to turn a blind eye.
why?

Will anyone have the guts to stand up to a man as informed as he is?
Consider this a challenge to those who pick only the easy posts to reply to.

Thanks for issuing a challenge for me lol. My argument is easy to understand voluntarism is preferred over force and coercion if you find that easy to practice at home then it should naturally apply to society and confer many more benefits.
The thing about it is people cant get there heads around the government not existing, but it is only force and coercion. So to be consistent in our philosophy ,it has to go.
Repeal the laws, not make more.

 

[shaggyballs]

Thanks for issuing a challenge for me lol. My argument is easy to understand voluntarism is preferred over force and coercion if you find that easy to practice at home then it should naturally apply to society and confer many more benefits.
The thing about it is people cant get there heads around the government not existing, but it is only force and coercion. So to be consistent in our philosophy ,it has to go.
Repeal the laws, not make more.

Sorry am about throwing you under the moving bus!
I apologize for doing that but, you are well spoken and more informed than most!

I highly value what you have said and wish I could drive home a point like you do.

Have you noticed not many are willing to counter your factual information?

Some seem to ignore the facts and start mudslinging!

I personally thank you for speaking up when most would cower!
Shag

 

[ElusiveQuark]

I'm just going to say my piece and be done with this bull shit.

Anyone who speaks against legalization is one of these things:
1. Absofuckinglutely confused to the point beyond stupidity
2. Profiting from the current illegality

I haven't heard anyone that is not in favor of legalization. I also am not aware of any place that currently has or proposes legalization.

 

[ElusiveQuark]

Upon further reflection, I can't think of a single thing or activity that is not regulated to some extent. Can you? Hmmm.

 

[bentom187]

Sorry am about throwing you under the moving bus!
I apologize for doing that but, you are well spoken and more informed than most!

I highly value what you have said and wish I could drive home a point like you do.

Have you noticed not many are willing to counter your factual information?

Some seem to ignore the facts and start mudslinging!

I personally thank you for speaking up when most would cower!
Shag

I was kidding, no worries. A better idea would to be educate yourself so the rEVOLution can continue to expand.

Tons of resources here:

www.ronpaulforums.com

rEVOLution ON FIRE!
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Its only going to get bigger.