Vavilov, Afghan Sativas, and Uzbeki Giants

[Guest]

Take a look at my Dark Kush thread, I got a 5-pack and got 3 males and 2 females, the 2 females differ somewhat so I reckon I would need a lot more seeds of this variety to find all the phenos and decide which to select for making seed:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=41768&page=3&highlight=dark+kush+indica

I've also got a 5-pack of Nepai that is goign to be grown soon, plus a 10-pack of Pakistan Valley by World of Seeds, about 40 Egyptian landrace beans direct from the source country, a landrace Afghani collected by a soldier whos the brother of a grow buddy (not sure where in Afghanisatan, but I'll try to find out), and another, different Afghani that turns completely purple, it's supposedly a pure Afghani not a hybrid. I'm gonna try out all these in the coming months. i want to get hold of some Deep Chunk, Maple Leaf Indica and one or two others as well, I'm looking for the best landrace indicas to cross to my collection of landrace sativas. Anyone ever tried Seedsman's Afghani #1 or Sensi Seeds' version?

 

[Elevator Man]

BH - I was thinking of getting a pack of Seedman's Afghani pretty soon actually - looks to be an old, old one. Whenever I mentioned it in Afghani threads, it always got ignored - a lot of Seedsman's stuff does, I've noticed. Not sure why - the Skunks and the Malawi Gold are superb. But it looks to good stock, and I want to get a couple of good, reliable pure indicas in for crossing, etc.

Got some Black Domina F2s from a friend which are just at the seedling stage. I couldn't get any feedback on who made the F2s and whether they were deliberate or just hermie - they were still in the buds. I've not heard much of pure indicas herming though? I did smoke some of the buds, and it was definitely BD, though a bit bland compared to what I've tasted before, and not as strong either. That's why I thought I should try...

 

[XyZ]

i think nobody is interested on seedsman affi ...cuz all love the DEep Chunk (pure afghani~hashplant

 

[Guest]

I think the Seedsman Afghani #1 is probably the same Afghan that Sam the Skunkman brought to holland in 83 as he is the source of Seedsman's beans. Sensi's Afghan #1 is probably that same strainline but how Sam and Sensi have preserved that seedline over the last couple of decades is unknown, I've read a lot of stuff about Sensi's strains not being what they were once due to generational issues so perhaps Seedsman's Afghani is the better bet.

Maple Leaf Indica is an Afghan brought back in the late 70s before the Soviet invasion, probably by Ben Drinkers himself as there used to be a picture of Ben in Afghanistan at that time in the Sensi catalogue. I think it would be interesting and informative to grow MLI alongside Afghani #1 as they are probably two similar but different old Afghans. Sensi's Hindu Kush is probably worth a look too.

Deep Chunk is probably at least as old as the Afghani #1 and MLI, I've read that it's really slow in veg, very leafy and not a great yield, but never any complaints about it's potency and resin production. Also, the bean's aren't on sale anymore, one day I'd love to try Deep Chunk, Afghani #1, Maple Leaf Indica and Hindu Kush side-by-side.

I've read a few places that Black Domina is a very good strain mostly composed of Afghani genes and as potent as they come, it's always mentioned in the same breath as Sensi Star, Herijuana, Romulan and Blockhead and the like as being one of the most potent indicas possible. And you have gotta love Sensi's description:

This full blooded Indica with large bracts will soon have you on your knees and begging for more. This harsh, overpowering lady simply gushes sticky resin to which most men seem to have a fatal attraction. A word of warning: this powerful compact Indica has had a devastating effect on many a man, leaving them apparently beaten and whipped, with a strange smile on their faces.

Flowering: 50 days. Height: 100-130 cm. Yield: 90-120 gr


Sweet Seeds do a really cheap 3-pack of S1 feminised Black Domina under the name Afghan Delicious:

Autopollinization of one of our more powerful and aromatic mothers, Black Domina, selected since 1998.
The Black Domina, very well-know in Valencia and the environs, was awarded in the second Valencia’s cannabis cup, organized by La Barraca de María (2004).
The autopollinization of this super-mother produces dense buds with a lot of resin, and a sweet and intense aroma, flavour inherited from his afgan ancestors.
This seed S1 displays high homogeneity in all the descendants for the described characters.
Exceptional to the indoor cultivation, and an all-roads at outdoor. Easy to cultivo and great resistance to plagues and fungi.
Growing method: indoor / Outdoor.
Sex: Female
Genotype: Hibryd with Indica predominance
Region: USA (Northen Ligths) and Afganistan
Indoor Maturation: 50-60 days.
Outdoor Maturation: 16-30 September
THC:15-20%
Yield: 400-500 gr/m2 indoor, 350-400 gr/plant outdoor.

There's lots of other Kush and Afghan genes plus pakistani, nepali, uzbeki, tadjik, n indian etc. to explore in the hunt for the best landrace indicas, I hope to try many of these genes, there are sure to be a few absolute killers among them. Then there are the moroccans, egyptians, lebanese, turkish, Iranian....

That's some beautiful Dep Chunk porn there XyZ, I would dearly love a cut of that!

 

[Elevator Man]

I have 9/10 Black Domina F2s just opening their first set of leaves - we'll see how they look in a week or two. I got given a bunch of seeds out of a bag of weed, so I thought - why not? Dunno who pollenated them - and whether it was deliberate! There'd better not be any hermies...not heard of it much with pure indicas though...

 

[indicalover]

I am not sure, but I don't think that seedsman afghani is from Sam, I think it comes from sensi, read that on sensi's site. Sensi's afghani #1 is from two different afghan cultivars, so it is not landrace.

 

[zamalito]

It is suprising the lack of variety of afghan lines. You've managed to thoroughly confuse me indicalover (it happens all too easy nowadays, alzheimers must be setting in). Isn't afghani #1 a line that sam originally brought to holland? I wonder if it became a cross of 2 different lines before bringing it over or after.

 

[Nept]

Still as good athread now as when it started!

 

[Guest]

I've been gifted some beans of an Afghani landrace collected last year by a US soldier in Afghanistan itself, his brother who's a friend grew them out and made seeds. His pics of his grow showed a classic xmas tree indica with a main top bud and a few smaller lower buds, classic Afghani structure. I've also been gifted some Purple Afghani beans, not sure of their background.

Perhaps Afghani #1 was a hybrid of different Afghanis because Sam (or whoever bred it) had various good Afghanis but none had all the traits desired, perhaps, like Deep Chunk, some were very high quality but excessively leafy and some were much less leafy with more desirable structure, he could have crossed and selected for the desired traits in order to produce the best expression of Aghani-type genes. Probably best to consider Afghani #1 a stabilised ibl derived from Landrace genes rather than a preserved landrace.

I wonder what Afghanis were used in the classic old strains like Skunk #1 (Colombian Gold x (Acapulco Gold x Afghani) then inbred), Trainwreck (Mexican and Columbian with a bit of added Afghani), Northern Lights (stabilised sativa x Afghani hybrid) and Hashplant (unknown but has Afghani genes). I really doubt that the same Afghani was used as that would mean the same clone or seedline was spread all over the US.

 

[Guest]

I think the Seedsman Afghani #1 is probably the same Afghan that Sam the Skunkman brought to holland in 83 as he is the source of Seedsman's beans.

i'v pm to the Seedsman owner long time ago,he said me all seedsman seeds are from Sam except the Afghani#1 and hashplant,they came from u.s grower (or breeder don't rmember) but supposely from Sacredseeds heritage

edit: Northern lights too

 

[Elevator Man]

DJ Short said the afghan he used for all his lines had been circulating in the Pacific NW for several years - this is late 70's/early 80's I think. So pre-soviet, definitely. Some of those were around a good 30 years ago.

I would say the best route to try and trace it (not necessarily the safest!) would be the B.O.E.L. guys - if any are still sociable, alive and/or available. Remember they were in Afghanistan in 69-72, and were importing vast quantities (literally tons) of hash and oil throughout SoCal etc. via the Laguna Beach surf community and in the the desert communes (who would have also probably aclimatised pure Afghans better there than indoors!). The contacts they made there and in the Kashmir/Hindu Kush/Nepal areas would have no doubt been able to give them huge quantities of seeds right from the off.

 

[Rgd]

Very interesting thread.
Going back to page one
I agree that the higher the latitude,
the harder it is to maintain the thc content.
As far as thc % ratings, they mean little to me
[within reason] for it is the profile of the thc
not the % that gives potency.
Some of the most resinous,beautiful, and gooey plants i have seen were also the weakest buzz.And of course looking the difference visually,between sativa resin and indica resin shows that resin coating is in no way a
real indication of potency.

 

[Dkgrower]

My take on Indica

As i rember the plant material Lemark got from india, was very littel so his sub species is based on a very littel amount of data, I think that is the reason why many of the diffent types of cannabis plants that grow above the 30th parralle differ greatly from Lemarks original and cause alot of confusion on what is Indica or not.

Also I think that it makes more meanig when you think the differnt types of cannabis and the local climate/cultural use of the plant.

One day I helped a fellow who was looking at pollen charts from lake sediments, they use the cannabis pollen as markers of human activity
and he told me that the spreading of cannabis have been by pepol

 

[Guest]

Probably best to consider Afghani #1 a stabilised ibl derived from Landrace genes rather than a preserved landrace.

I think that is a little too much guess work myself bro, can understand what you mean. However my personal experience with those Hash plant Cultivars is that they need only selections for less leaf maybe but certainly for the high THC containing individuals.

I believe Sam once said that in those early collections they found 25% high thc, 25% high cbd and 50% somewhere between. From what ive seen that makes sense and you need to select the high thc plants, for succesfull commercial lines, which is what they did i suspect. Not the way to preserve the genepool of course..but that is a great example of why the two are very different goals as you wont sell high CBD plant lines, as they are not 'potent' Cannabis.

Peace, hhf

 

[zamalito]

Yeah, I always try to emphasize that preservation and improvement are two different things. A good example of what hf is talking about is the hunza indica thread. Though all the plants produce a nice stink and good resin production, there are reports that you can't get high off of it. That's one misconception about dutch seeds. Many people think the dutch indicas are higher in cbd and accesory cannabinoids than the landrace sativas. This is simply untrue. Theres only one gene for making the primary cannabinoid thc or cbd so making the primary cannabinoid thc its easily bred for and can even be done in one generation. Since the alleles are codominant heterozygous plants differentiate themselves. Thus it's merely a matter of crossing plants that are primarily thc producers for and in one generation the gene for primary cbd production is removed.

Also dkgrower I have pictures of indica specimens take by Lamarck that I will try to get uploaded. All of the leaves are 3 fingers or less and about as wide as a dutch "sativa". I also have a picture of Richard Evan Schultes in Afghanistan when he was researching whether or not cannabis was a monotypic genus. In the picture he's standing next to a male and female indica plants. I really love that picture. My camera reproduced the pictures pretty well from the originals. However I need to spend $9 on card reader since my camera isn't here at the moment.

 

[zamalito]

I never breed for a higher calyx to leaf ratio with indicas. I think the reason why some of the afghans had a low flower yield but high yield of resinous leaf. Despite the fact that many portions of the region are arid and breeding plants to use water efficiently is important and it would seem that densely pack flowers would lose less water than an equal weight of less densely packed inner leaf they bred these plants to in many cases yield more weight of resinous inner leaf than of actual flowers. I think this is because resinous inner leaf simply makes better hash more easil than bud. A leaf consists of a flat surface with glandular trichomes on both sides. Whereas a flower has to be broken up to a higher degree to allow the glands to be freed not to mention the fact that flowers have pistils which IMO aside from dust and various environmental contaminants the biggest enemy of the hash maker. With good quality indoor grown carefully removed highly resinous inner leaf from good genetics anyone can dry sieve full melt clear dome hash with a relatively course 220-250 micron screen. The minute you start adding flowers it starts to require more skill more technique and a more precisely matched screen for the material you're using especially the more hairy the bud is.

 

[suzycremecheese]

Theres only one gene for making the primary cannabinoid thc or cbd so making the primary cannabinoid thc its easily bred for and can even be done in one generation. Since the alleles are codominant heterozygous plants differentiate themselves.

Hey I've never heard this before. Do you have a link or PDF of the research that supports this?

 

[Guest]

Maybe this one? I don't see the co dominance however

The inheritance of chemical phenotype in Cannabis sativa L. (II):
Cannabigerol predominant plants


E. P. M. de Meijer∗ & K. M. Hammond

Euphytica (2005) 145: 189–198

This paper aims to clarify the genetic mechanism that is responsible for the accumulation of cannabigerol (CBG) in certain phenotypes of Cannabis sativa L. CBG is the direct precursor of the cannabinoids CBD, THC and CBC. Plants strongly predominant in CBG have been found in different fibre hemp accessions. Inbred offspring derived from one such individual were crossed with true breeding THC predominant- and CBD predominant plants, respectively. The segregations in the cross progenies indicate that CBG accumulation is due to the homozygous presence of a minimally functional allele, tentatively called B0, at the single locus B that normally controls the conversion of CBG into THC (allele BT) and/or CBD (allele BD). The fact that CBG accumulating plants have so far been found in European fibre hemp populations that are generally composed of BD/BD plants, and the observation that the here investigated B0 allele possesses a residual ability to convert small amounts of CBG into CBD, make it plausible that this B0 is a mutation of normally functional BD. Therefore, B0 is considered as a member of the BD allelic series encoding a CBD synthase isoform with greatly weakened substrate affinity and/or catalytic capacity.

 

[Guest]

Or this one? The first part of the former where they talk about co dominance

The Inheritance of Chemical Phenotype in Cannabis sativa L.

Etienne P. M. de Meijer, Manuela Bagatta,†Andrea Carboni, Paola Crucitti,
V. M. Cristiana Moliterni, Paolo Ranalli and Giuseppe Mandolino

Genetics 163: 335–346 ( January 2003)

ABSTRACT
Four crosses were made between inbred Cannabis sativa plants with pure cannabidiol (CBD) and pure
-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) chemotypes. All the plants belonging to the F1’s were analyzed by gas chromatography for cannabinoid composition and constantly found to have amixed CBD-THC chemotype.
Ten individual F1 plants were self-fertilized, and 10 inbred F2 offspring were collected and analyzed. In all cases, a segregation of the three chemotypes (pure CBD, mixed CBD-THC, and pure THC) fitting a 1:2:1 proportion was observed. The CBD/THC ratio was found to be significantly progeny specific and transmitted from each F1 to the F2’s derived from it. A model involving one locus, B, with two alleles, BD and BT, is proposed, with the two alleles being codominant. The mixed chemotypes are interpreted as due to the genotype BD/BT at the B locus, while the pure-chemotype plants are due to homozygosity at the B locus (either BD/BD or BT/BT). It is suggested that such codominance is due to the codification by the two alleles for different isoforms of the same synthase, having different specificity for the conversion of the common precursor cannabigerol into CBD or THC, respectively. The F2 segregating groups were used in a bulk segregant analysis of the pooled DNAs for screening RAPD primers; three chemotypeassociated markers are described, one of which has been transformed in a sequence-characterized amplified region (SCAR) marker and shows tight linkage to the chemotype and codominance.

 

[suzycremecheese]

Do you have the whole paper or a link to it? The abstracts intriguing but I'd like to see the meat and potatoes.