Vavilov, Afghan Sativas, and Uzbeki Giants

[PazVerdeRadical]

3) if cannabis was carried with the first people to populate the Americas, then why is cannabis only found in a few very isolated digs?.......why wasn't natural American cannabis widespread throughout the continent prior the Spanish invasions?..esp considering how easily cannabis becomes feral as happened after WW2? My theory is that cannabis was introduced by Spanish and the very few samples of hemp cloth proven to be prior to the Spanish in the Americas were from the odd lost trading ship that made it that far by accident and luck..probably much in the same way that coca and tobacco were found buried in pyramids....but one wonders why tobacco and coca were brought back and not the dozens of unique vegetables native to the same area ( potatoes, tomatoes and others)

well Chamba, it is not just "very few samples of hemp clothes", if you read the information provided carefully, you will notice that not only were plenty of hemp cloth samples founds in North America, but also clay pipes with Cannabis residues in them, which means it was a magic-religious substance.

You ask why Tabbacco and Coca made it all the way to Egypt and not Tomatos and Potatos; it is simple, because neither Tomatos nor Potatos were considered magical keys which opened doors into a bigger universe...

see, back in the day, most people were not sucking on their thumbs and watching sitcoms and news shows on the T.V. there is plenty of information regarding this; a good introductory book is Plants of the Gods by Schultes and Hoffman.

peace man.

 

[Guest]

which pages, Paz? I have no recollection of Schultes and Hofmann saying anything like what you have written above

IMHO McKenna is a great laugh, and genuinely inspired, but as for being an authority on history, hmmmm

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

Namkha, the whole book is about how plants like our beloved Cannabis were central to the lives of tons of people all over the world... the book merely discusses a few of the 1000s of plants with these characteristics too; for example, Coca nor Tabbacco are discussed; but this does not mean that these two plants aren't considered as magical keys into other worlds all over South America.

btw, there is no such thing as an Authority on History; this is why when you want to study History at university levels, it is always to be found on the faculty's departament of humanism, not science

peace.

 

[Guest]

fella I was aking which bit of Plants of the Gods supported the point about cannabis being in America since the year dot

of course there is such a thing as an authority on history

one of the things every authority on histroy is an authority on is precisely the limitations of his subject

Namkha

 

[Guest]

I think the key to understaning how Cannabis reached the Americas is to forget about the Spanish altogether, Columbus didn't discover anything, Vikings, Irish Monks, and others all "discovered" America before him, and the Chinese traded with South and Central America for a couple of centuries before 1492. So much of our history has been destroyed that its impossible to know just how the trade network worked back then, but I'm positive there was global trade long before the western europeans started their explorations.

In Yucatan, Mexico, they have a tradition of using cannabis that dates back long before 1492, possibly as far back as before christ. Hemp fibres and cloth were found in the bottom of the wells at Chichen Itza, hemp fibres 1500 years old, so forget the Spanish, they arrived far too late to be significant in this debate.

Talking of Alexander the Great, he gave his men large quantities of hashish to allow them to march for days on end, that hashish probably came from north africa and the near east, present-day Turkey and Lebanon. Alexander reached northern India. I think the spread of cannabis around the globe probably predates recorded history, and therefore will forever remain a mystery.

Oh, one more thing, there is now doubt as to whether those mummies actually contained coca or whether it was something similar than came from an indigenous African plant, wish I could remember the exact details, but the coca thing is now in doubt.

As someone who has a history degree, I can definitely say there is no such thing as an authority on history, only students of history, as with most history, its impossible to have enough details and contextual info to be authoritative, for example, it is only after the opening of ex-Soviet archives in Russia that many blank spaces in our knowledge of nazi germany have become completed, until Hitler's skull was finally shown and examined did we know that Russian soldiers actually found and recovered Hitler's burnt remains from the chancellery garden, for 50 years, we had no proof of what happened to Hitler besides the testimony of some people who weren;t eyewitnesses to the burning. Most of the men who actually saw what happened didn't get out of Berlin alive. I'll give you another example, Ravenna, northern Italy, one of the most beautiful mediaeval cities had always been thought of as an example of Roman and Byzantine culture, but we now know that the great cathedral and many of the other monuments were actually built by the goths, the romans/byzantines altered the mosaics and other works of art in order to airbrush out the goths from history, hence we though Ravenna was an example of byzantine culture, turns out it was the goths during the supposed dark ages that built its glories. We also now know that the dark ages werem\t dark at all, culture, art and science all continued to thrive in these times, but as conventional history is based on th writings of romans, we only had anti-foreigner roman propaganda to base our knowledge on, know we have found so many conflicting things, we have a true picture of those times. The dark ages didn't exist, its just roman propaganda as the romans viewed the peoples who migrated in western europe after the fall of the roman empire as mindless barbarians, actually, those migrants were every bit as clever and cultured as the romans. Bear in mind, anything the Roamns didn't like they destroyed, therefore so much of our knowledge from 500BC to 1000AD is based on Roman writings, its like writing the history of the 20th century using only a handful of books written by a hanful of men, the result wouldn't be accurate in any way.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

fella I was aking which bit of Plants of the Gods supported the point about cannabis being in America since the year dot

of course there is such a thing as an authority on history

one of the things every authority on histroy is an authority on is precisely the limitations of his subject

Namkha

hello again Namkha, i will copy and paste once again the information plus its source:

"In his study of Prehistoric Textile Art of Eastern United States (1891), Smithsonian Institute ethnologist W. H. Holmes showed that the ancient Mound-Builders utilized cannabis hemp. Hundreds of clay pipes, some containing cannabis residues and wrapped in hemp cloth, were found in the so-called Death Mask Mound of the Hopewell Mound Builders who lived circa 400 BC in modern Ohio. At one site in Morgan County, Tennessee, Holmes recovered large pieces of hemp fabric”

http://www.rexresearch.com/hhist/hhicon~1.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

the history your beloved "authorities" have written is as real and any other man's speculative imagination; only difference is that the latter may not have an agenda when it is time to write history

be well.

one love.

 

[Guest]

ok what had confused me was that I thought you were saying there was something in Plants of the Gods to that effect
is there other research that has been interpreted to support this view?

your criticism could be made of any writing about the past, or indeed speaking about it too
it is only really a relevant point if you assume that someone else, such as a historian, has misconceptions about what discourse about the past entails

I doubt any decent historian would

e.g. "What is History?" usually at the top of most undergrad reading lists

are you trying to suggest that McKenna didn't have an agenda
to take part in public discourse is of necessity to "have an agenda"

unless of course you were to limit yourself to statements such as "pass the milk"
but even then people might suspect you were after some milk


Namkha

 

[Guest]

You can present the facts in an unbiased way, allow people to make of them what they will, if you do that, then you can be said to not have an agenda. My only agenda is to share knowledge and learn, unfortunately, many historians had further agenda than this, often involving pride, ego, politics and racism. For a long time, many western historians refused to accept the Nubians were as significant and advanced a culture as they clearly were, just becuase they were black africans rather than olive-skinned like most egyptians.

 

[mriko]

Excellent thread zamalito,

I've read only the first post heheh, and I'll reply to this very first post firstly.

These "giant pure Indica" still exsit in Afghanistan. plants in Mazar e Sharfi (and elsewhere as well) can easily reach 2.50meters height, provided they are given enough water of course. I have myself collected seeds on pure Indicas in Yarkhun valley (Pakistan Hindu Kush) and grew them back to France. Original plants were 4ft max. Those I had in France grew up to 3.20 meters ! So even in a 3 foot tall plant, these giantness genes can survive, ready to express in the right conditions !

Afghanistan is home to several cultures. THe north has strong influence from former Turkestan and Tajik, Uzbek, Turkmen populations and then plants locally grown also linked to these different cultures who brought the genes witht them. The best Afghan hash are produced in areas such as Mazar e Sharif or Shebarghan and are actually rather Uzbek/Tajik hash.

I've not been Afghanistan, but I know that Pakistan Hindu Kush is filled with wild indicas AND sativas as well, andthese sativas most probably also to grow wild in some parts of Afghan Hindu Kush.

I had as well once th eopportunity to smoke some nice buds grown from seeds from Tirah Valley, at the Af/Pak border. It definitely looked and smoked like some nice tropical sativa, nice woody taste and happy up high. Few seeds I found have very round shape, totally different than local indicas' ones. This is Pashtun world there, far from Turkestan influence.

ok, will read a bit more !

Irie !

 

[mriko]

Here's one specimen

Irie !

 

[Reign of Terror]

mriko! i followed your posts of queijo's forums, glad to see you here, your knowledge on middle eastern strains would do good here.

 

[mriko]

so indicas came from china, then europe, and lasty afghanistan/middle east?!

nope, what is called Chinese Turkestan or Xinjiang, is not China on a cultural Basis. This is the eastern part of former Turkestan. This is the land of Uyghur people. A Turk ethny related to the Kyrgyz, Uzbek, Kazakh and Turkmen people(Tajik are more persian related).

Indicas on the other hand will retain their chemotype better until the climate gets cold enough to produce the ruderalis pheno which typically kills the thc content.

I don't think that cold matters in such a way. I grew some Batyk Shan strain (western Mongolia- 50°N) and it was pretty good strain. Further North in Tuva Republic (roughly part of Western Siberia) the weed grows wild and people handrubb a potent charas from them, called Mazla.

in Yarkhun valley, one of te best Pakistan hash is made at 3000 meters elevation. Plants from there can handle cold pretty well. That big one I posted faced several freezing night (close to minus 10C) pretty well. A friend from there told me that the best hash is made from the plant harvested in December. So I don't think that adaptation to cold means thc decreasing.

Anyway, one shouldn't forget that at the light of the last research the sativa/indica distincion that is generally made (based on physical features - from Schultes) seems to be wrong. A recently done research found out that ALL drug strains are Indica whatever the shape of leaves, etc. Sativas are the european fiber strains, and ruderalis is that little dwarf-autoflowering plant. I would add that ruderalis seems mostly located in Caucasus-Ukrain Area, and area which growing season most probably deosn't impair on good sativa or indica development.

And this Indica physical features seem to be present in other areas close or in the himalayas. Last time I was in India I was told that very high in the mountains grow some dwarf cannabis which makes great stuff. But I couldn't know about the leaves features...
I have seen a lot growing wild in Hindu Kush (swat valley, southern CHitral district), but the genetic diversity seemed much more important in Chitral.

agh, me hungry, later !

Irie !

 

[Guest]

looks like you really know your stuff mriko, good to meet you

I have seen what I assume were ruderalis, growing in Hungary

this was in June in 1999, if I remember right

the small plants were growing along the edge of crop fields - they may have been Hungarian hemp, but M and F were well into flowering in June, if memory serves

do you know if Uighur hash is smuggled to Taiwan?
I always wondered what the origin of the hash in Taiwan was, and I have heard that in Shanghai etc. it is the Uighur Muslims who sell hash

other people have suggested it was commercial Nepalese, but to me Uighur seemed more likely

I incline to the view that cannabis is just one species, call it what you will

given just how mobile the populations of Central and Southern Asia, "Persia" and so on have been over the centuries, from the point of view of trade, migration, and general cultural exchange, I think it would be impossible to establish the numerous possible points of origin for a stand of plants growing in areas such as Afghanistan, or Xin Jiang, or Kashmir

think of a culture that has spread across Asia over a great space of time, such as Buddhism, and look at the extent of variation, evolution, and "hybridisation" that has occured as it moved from the Ganges plane up into areas such as Kashmir, Afghanistan, Xinjiang and Tibet in a process that began from around 500BC onwards, until well into the second half of the first millenium AD

by the early centuries AD, forms of Buddhism that had developed in areas such as Tun Huang, and had recieved influence from Zoroastrianism and so on from Iran etc etc., were beginning to have an influence back on India itself, and to take route there even

meanwhile India had previsouly been sending missionaries as far West as Greece to spread a more Theravadin style of Buddhism, and Greek medical ideas were in turn taking route in Indai to eventually become what we now know as traditional Indian medicine, and so on, and so on

(the descriptions are not intended to imply causal links so much as the extent of diversity and pluralisation, and obviously using the names of modern nations India, Pakistan etc. is inaccurate)

I am inclined to the view that cannabis can, has, and does take particular forms in certain areas due to environment and cultivation
there are landraces, there are strains and cultivars, and "gene pools" particular to certain areas and certain cultures etc.
but that ultimately the sativa/indica divide is hazy in the extreme, more of a descriptive convenience than a genetic reality

a potted history of Afghanistan would illustrate my point nicely
at one point, for instance, in around the 2nd or 1st century BC it was part of the empire of Asokha, who ruled most of what is know India and much of what is now Pakistan also
Afghanistan was subsequently also Mahayana Buddhist, and so on

the extent of all this cultural exchange, development and intermingling must have had real implications for a plant such as cannabis

blah blah

Namkha

edit: British Hempire - what you are writing about there are the limitations of History as a subject
all fields of study are furtheromore subject to the limitations of academics generally
but to suggest that there is no such thing as an authority on history is silly - here is a simple proof
if I was to be sat down next to Richard Gombrich, formerly Boden Professor of Sanskrit at Oxofrd, and we were to be quizzed on the early development of Buddhism around ancient Benares we would soon have a neat example of what separates an authority from a dilletante

 

[TORC]

"I am inclined to the view that cannabis can, has, and does take particular forms in certain areas due to environment and cultivation
there are landraces, there are strains and cultivars, and "gene pools" particular to certain areas and certain cultures etc.
but that ultimately the sativa/indica divide is hazy in the extreme, more of a descriptive convenience than a genetic reality". Namkha, I couldn't agree more. The best example of this is how, when growing indoors under the regimental 24hr(veg) and 12-12hr(flower) lighting, some strains will change over time. I'll use my AK-47 as an example, as it had the most pronounced changes. When I first started out, I had an awesome "Sativa" pheno AK, lovely cherry smell, buds not so dense, and an awesome, uplifting stone with a little body to it. After a few rounds of clones my flower times were getting shorter and shorter, plants were getting stockier and began to show "shoulders", and the stone was becoming much heavier, much more "Indica" like. I truly believe that light cycles, natural or unnatural, play a significant role in what you eventually end up with or what grows in various locales worldwide.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

I don't think that cold matters in such a way. I grew some Batyk Shan strain (western Mongolia- 50°N) and it was pretty good strain. Further North in Tuva Republic (roughly part of Western Siberia) the weed grows wild and people handrubb a potent charas from them, called Mazla.

in Yarkhun valley, one of te best Pakistan hash is made at 3000 meters elevation. Plants from there can handle cold pretty well. That big one I posted faced several freezing night (close to minus 10C) pretty well. A friend from there told me that the best hash is made from the plant harvested in December. So I don't think that adaptation to cold means thc decreasing.

Irie !

hello Mriko, hope all is good.

what you say about the cold and plants sound very similar to the highland strains grown at serious altitudes and cold wet weather in many places in Colombia, South America. The best smoke produced in Colombia is always from highlands, like around Bogota at 2600 meters elevation, or Sierra de Santa Marta, which is pretty elevated, anywhere from sea level up to 5600 meters high... Another interesting thing to note is that when it comes to these very old colombian genes (over 100 years in some cases) the looks of the bud, bag appeal, etc... may not be the common cliche people consider good herb should look like... anyway, it is really interesting how diverse cannbis is.

be well.

peace.

 

[mriko]

the small plants were growing along the edge of crop fields - they may have been Hungarian hemp, but M and F were well into flowering in June, if memory serves

I don't know wether ruderalis goes such westward as Hungary, really no idea. I've seen pics of wild Polish plants as well, they didn't looked like ruderalis (if short size is an aspect of ruderalis). what was the size of these plant you saw there ? which part of Hungary ?

when in Chitral two years ago I actually picked mature seeds from wild plants in June as well. some whort plants, like 3 feet tall, but also from tall sativas as well (late June for these ones).

do you know if Uighur hash is smuggled to Taiwan?

I always wondered what the origin of the hash in Taiwan was, and I have heard that in Shanghai etc. it is the Uighur Muslims who sell hash

other people have suggested it was commercial Nepalese, but to me Uighur seemed more likely

I have no idea about that. If there is a Uyghur community overthere, then most probably some of their hash find its way to the place. But it is true that Nepalese goes there, definitely. are you living there ? what kind of hash is it ? hand rubed charas or polm ? Uyghur are more into polm.

Your mention of Buddhism influence is interesting. Considering that cannabis seeds play an important role in Buddhism birth we can imagine that Buddhist monks travelled with them, bringing htem to a place a soffering or bringing them back from Holy places. that's just a pure supposition of me of course.
Actually today's Pakistan has been one of the main Buddhist cultural center in its time (Ghandara) and nowhere else in the world youcan find soooo many buddhist ruins and other signs such as Buddhas carved on mountain slopes and rocks carved by pilgrims.

meanwhile India had previsouly been sending missionaries as far West as Greece to spread a more Theravadin style of Buddhism, and Greek medical ideas were in turn taking route in Indai to eventually become what we now know as traditional Indian medicine, and so on, and so on

Much more than that, there was a Greco-buddhist empire in today's Afghanistan/Pakistan. Greek settled there with the conquest of Alexander the Great, and those who stood and build the mepire eventually merged their culture and religion with Buddhism.
But as far as I know India Ayurveda and Yunnani (Yunnan was the loca name for "Greece" and is still in use today). I heard several times in Pakistna about hte Yunnani medicine, which is greek inspired.

that ultimately the sativa/indica divide is hazy in the extreme, more of a descriptive convenience than a genetic reality"

True, today's generally used, at least by the smokers/growers, Schultes' classification is based on physical features (size, leaf shape, etc.). But according to latest genetic researches, all psychoactive cannabis is indica, wether short seized and with wide leaflet, or tall and thin leaved. Afghani, Nepalese, Thai, NIgerian, Colombina, Jamaican, all is indica.

may not be the common cliche people consider good herb should look like...

heheh, I'm truly dreaming of this "schwag-looking" buds. This kind definitely has much much more, to me, bag appeal to me than most of western strain. Damn, where are the good imports !!!

Irie !

 

[mriko]

The generally accepted source of genetics for most the equatorial sativas in america and the carribean is hemp.

Ach, nein nein ! Sorry Zamalito but this is not fully accurate. For Jamaica the origin is India, was brought by the "collies". Hence the name "Collie weed", "Kali weed" or of course "Ganja" which is India word. Rastafarism itself has deep influences from Hinduism as well.

Slaves brought from Africa also played their part of course. the Brazlian Maconha find its origins in Angola.

Actually the importation of European fiber hemp was a hard task. Many attemps were done, unsuccessfully. for instance, in Colombia, reports from 1607, 1610 and 1632 indicate that repeated introduciton failed to produce a hemp industry and a 1789 description of the viceroyalty of Santafé de Bogotaindicates that hemp was introduced in the savannah of Bogotabut failed so completely that no seed was available for further experimentation.
only in Chile it was successfull.

Of course the goal was to grow fiber, not psychoactive stuff. the 1789 report mentionning that not even seeds were produced might make me think that the plants failed totally to adapt, rather than evolving to a less fiber-more thc strain. Of course it is highly possible that some hidden genetics found there the right place to show up in afew surviving specimen. But in this case they would have to survive in the wild. Any wild population in colombia ?

Actually, there were plenty of local fiber plants which acted as a barrier againts the implantation of hemp.


But the expantion of cannabis use in Colombia seems not to be that old actually, most probably dating from the Panama Canal digging and the "intense human interchanges" which resulted in the whole caribbean area.

Still, it was not until 1945 that Colombian press began reporting clandestine marihuana plantation in Cauca valley, and on the Atlantic coast.

Attempts were made also in Mexico and Peru as well, unsuccessfully. But in Mexico, maybe some hemp strains acclimated easier and turned into psychoactive ones, that's possible yes.

another characteristic of a drug strain is that its unsuitable for fiber content

Well, I cannot say for truly equatorial strains, but in India (Kullu - Parvati valley area at least), people make strong rope with the local strains, and if memory serves I think that in Nepal as well, fiber is produced.

Alexander the Great wasknown to supply his soldiers with copious amounts of Cannabis to make them march without feeling as much pain and under his rule the Cannabis plant thrived....
Unfortunately the Kefirs are extinct today, but when Vavilov explored the region he still found traces of this ancient culture......i hope to find more info about this....

Guineapig, do you have any source about Alexander ginving seeds to the soldiers ? That would make really realy HUGE amounts of seeds to provide !
DOn't be sad man, so-called "Kafirs" are still alive and existing. They are Kalasha people. Red Kalasha people (on Afghan side) have been wiped out, but Black Kalasha are still dwelling on the Pakistan side in Rumbur, Bumboret and Birir valleys, close to Chitral town.

Oh and i totally agree with you Zamalito that THC did not evolve as a defense againstarid conditions.....i too disagree with RCC on this point......personally i believe it has all to do with herbivory deterrence/ attraction.

I do agree with that definitely. The defence against UV is not in the resin gland itself, but rather in the THC that is present INSIDE the plant.
For me, resin acts firstly as a deterrent against bugs which could fancy the seeds. It COULD also have an atttractive effect on small birds who would then help to spread the seeds. when I was in Yarkhun valley I was told a story about birds eating the seeds from the plant and getting so stoned they they were very easy to catch. the resin was then scraped off thebeak, yielding some top notch charas.

I also thought that cannabis seed would be the one thing I'd definitely take if stranded on an island but didn't know that about the sailors. I forgot where the kafirstanica reference in mj botany could you clue me in? Also do you have any references for more indepth of what vavilov wrote directly?

Yeah ! definitely ! There's a vavilov Institue in Russia and they happen to have a cannabis seed bank actually. Hey guys, if you happen to have a few dozens of some nice landrace (straight from homeland, not acclimated to indoor or other environment), please feel free to send'em !

Its hard to say but most central asian cannabis had undergone hybridization with afghans during this period including nepalese, chitral, north indian (kashmiri nepalese and chitrali hash plants were all fairly similar sativas in the 70s and in the 80's became hybrids with indicas and evetually indica dominant with there own character

Any source for the Afghan hybridisation with "most central asian cannabis"?


Don't know, first time I was in Chitral and Yarkhun stories I heard implied that they had used the broad leaves strain since long long time.

I have not seen Indica dominant plant in Kashmir or Himachal. Some plants growing wild on road side of Kashmir had slightly broader leaves. But All cultivated plants I have seen there had definitely absolutely nothing of an indica, not the single hint of some influence. The high also has nothing of an indica. It's just like smoking a energising equatorial sativa.

Same in India, all I saw are sativas.

Even in countries with long hash tradition like Pakistan and Afghanistan, the wild plant is mainly sativa,although this sativas are not very powerful

Yes it is powerfull one, I read some report confirming this. while In birir valley I was told also about a French couple coming each year for rubbing charas from the wild plants (rather sativish in that one).

india is where linnaeus first used the name indica

Nope, Linnea named only Cannabis sativa. Indica is from Lamarck, named in 1783 after a specimen collected by Pierre Sonnerat in India, hence thename Indica.

These regions were being used by pakistani secret service to fund the mujahedeen so since afghan indicas were so much faster and better producers they very quickly became popular and made very nice hybrids with the traditionally used wild plants.

ISI was much much more into heroin than hash, much more money much faster.
Indica are not always "faster", in Yarkhun harvest time can go up to december.

Irie !

 

[dubi]

mriko great post.

Im sure you can get a decent product rubbing charas from wild afghani and paki sativas. But i have never heard about a paki or afghani sativa being powerful (less 2-5% THC).

 

[mriko]

from the buds I have smoked there (and seed shape as well) it seems that Sativa is grown in Tirah (Khyber Agency of Federally Admistered Tribal Areas) for hash production (Tirah is source of best Khyber Hash). Will have to grow it to confirm heheh...

Irie !

 

[Guest]

Excellent thread, I declare!

Regarding ruderalis, here's a picture from Romania: