Vavilov, Afghan Sativas, and Uzbeki Giants

[Haps]

Environment does not select for thc, but the environment can change the dynamics of the plants, and this can lead to all manner of changes, including thc. Said the farmer.
H

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

In Yucatan, Mexico, they have a tradition of using cannabis that dates back long before 1492, possibly as far back as before christ. Hemp fibres and cloth were found in the bottom of the wells at Chichen Itza, hemp fibres 1500 years old, so forget the Spanish, they arrived far too late to be significant in this debate.

Oh, one more thing, there is now doubt as to whether those mummies actually contained coca or whether it was something similar than came from an indigenous African plant, wish I could remember the exact details, but the coca thing is now in doubt.

If you want experts on Cannabis history there are some:

http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/jiha5208.html

British_Hempire
Please supply the reference to any Cannabis found in the Americas pre 1492, they do not exist, you are mistaken and spreading false rumors.



-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

PazVerdeRadical,
“In his study of Prehistoric Textile Art of Eastern United States (1891), Smithsonian Institute ethnologist W. H. Holmes showed that the ancient Mound-Builders utilized cannabis hemp. Hundreds of clay pipes, some containing cannabis residues and wrapped in hemp cloth, were found in the so-called Death Mask Mound of the Hopewell Mound Builders who lived circa 400 BC in modern Ohio. At one site in Morgan County, Tennessee, Holmes recovered large pieces of hemp fabric”

Funny how they found hemp residue but tests for Cannabinoids were not developed until after the 1960's, if you believe this, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you...
No Hemp textile, Cannabis remains or Cannabis seeds have been found in the Americas from pre 1492. If you think they have then please list the reference and I will explain why it is not real.

-SamS

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

PazVerdeRadical,
"well Chamba, it is not just "very few samples of hemp clothes", if you read the information provided carefully, you will notice that not only were plenty of hemp cloth samples founds in North America, but also clay pipes with Cannabis residues in them, which means it was a magic-religious substance."

Please list them. The analysis was done before science could ID Cannabis.

-SamS

 

[Guest]

1492.

In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Bump de bump

 

[Raco]

Bump de bump

lol
Thx for clearing up things,Sam
good info...Cream de la Cream

 

[esbe]

rite raco. its a pleasure to have the skunkman around here!

 

[Raco]

rite raco. its a pleasure to have the skunkman around here!

I agree 110% :wink:

 

[Guest]

I don't know wether ruderalis goes such westward as Hungary, really no idea. I've seen pics of wild Polish plants as well, they didn't looked like ruderalis (if short size is an aspect of ruderalis). what was the size of these plant you saw there ? which part of Hungary ?

when in Chitral two years ago I actually picked mature seeds from wild plants in June as well. some whort plants, like 3 feet tall, but also from tall sativas as well (late June for these ones).



I have no idea about that. If there is a Uyghur community overthere, then most probably some of their hash find its way to the place. But it is true that Nepalese goes there, definitely. are you living there ? what kind of hash is it ? hand rubed charas or polm ? Uyghur are more into polm.

Your mention of Buddhism influence is interesting. Considering that cannabis seeds play an important role in Buddhism birth we can imagine that Buddhist monks travelled with them, bringing htem to a place a soffering or bringing them back from Holy places. that's just a pure supposition of me of course.
Actually today's Pakistan has been one of the main Buddhist cultural center in its time (Ghandara) and nowhere else in the world youcan find soooo many buddhist ruins and other signs such as Buddhas carved on mountain slopes and rocks carved by pilgrims.



Much more than that, there was a Greco-buddhist empire in today's Afghanistan/Pakistan. Greek settled there with the conquest of Alexander the Great, and those who stood and build the mepire eventually merged their culture and religion with Buddhism.
But as far as I know India Ayurveda and Yunnani (Yunnan was the loca name for "Greece" and is still in use today). I heard several times in Pakistna about hte Yunnani medicine, which is greek inspired.



True, today's generally used, at least by the smokers/growers, Schultes' classification is based on physical features (size, leaf shape, etc.). But according to latest genetic researches, all psychoactive cannabis is indica, wether short seized and with wide leaflet, or tall and thin leaved. Afghani, Nepalese, Thai, NIgerian, Colombina, Jamaican, all is indica.



heheh, I'm truly dreaming of this "schwag-looking" buds. This kind definitely has much much more, to me, bag appeal to me than most of western strain. Damn, where are the good imports !!!

Irie !

Glad my ancestors got it right 2500 years ago and im very proud!!!!!!!!
No wonder i love weed so much haha great readings folks.......

 

[ElectroSticky]

I kind of understand the afghan sativa,,, i am really intrigued by it ,,,who has the real afghan sativa ,, are beans avail,,

wazaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaappp!!!!!!!

 

[WeedSavesLives]

saving genetics, cannabis proves early travel

saving genetics, cannabis proves early travel

I think it is essential for us to preserve landrace, native, cultivar genetics before they are all gone. We don't know what ramifications not doing so would have on the humanity hundreds, thousands, years from now. Is it possible we lose important genetic traits of cannabis so much over time we lose some of its essential compounds? I don't know the answer, but older smokers agree often that cannabis isn't quite what it was years ago. It's a plant and as a plant we should be preserving it. We might need it when we all have to move to mars, lol.

A note to others comments on it's history. I don't remember where (I believe somewhere in South America, somebody may have mentioned it) that cannabis was supposedly not a native plant. Yet they found evidence of cannabis way before any record of any culture being able to travel the sea's that far.

I think humans have been traveling the oceans long before our history tells us. I also think that cannabis being found in places it's not native too, long before what what we believe was the first travelers across seas, is a giant discovery that nobody wants to talk about because it involves cannabis.

Maybe someone can put some sense to what im saying with some info. Im far from any sort of historian.

I agree with many, our ignorant cultures can learn from these ancient cultures about the use and love of cannabis.

Peace

 

[arcticsun]

I'm glad you find it interesting. I was kinda scared you guys would all rip me apart. As far as the origins of the first indica I can't make too much argument one way or the other. The most accepted theory is that it was created in the hindu kush range. I don't argue with this but I think the originals had much more genetic diversity having more traits in common with sativas and still weren't exactly what you and I would call a true breeding inica. Over the years I think environment has played a roll in decreasing that genetic diversity (like the droughts in afghanistan wiping out the genes for larger plants). One of the things DJ short says about ruderalis is that its a pheno that's created when indica is bred for a northern climate and I agree with this. So ruderalis and indica are the same thing. This (morphology) I feel is the only true difference between indica and sativa. Indicas when feral in a northern climate become the ruderalis pheno of indica. Sativas when feral in a northern climate become weedy hemp. Sativas show a strong correlation between latitude and thc/cbd content and fiber production suitability. This is how a wild malawi specimen can be 10% thc (better than beasters) and most wild cannabis in the us and canada is ok for hemp production although that is what its descended from. Indicas on the other hand will retain their chemotype better until the climate gets cold enough to produce the ruderalis pheno which typically kills the thc content.

I have come to the same conclusion regarding the indica and ruderalis, that they are intricately related.

Most spesifically because of a recent post made by mossy, the breeder of mossys gem where he says:https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3326504&postcount=8

I can only run on results..and mixing a 100% AF to a long season girl
have given me AF in Majority @ F1.
The FIRST cross I ran right through on the DC/ALF gave me AF 90%
dominance..
but overall I would peg them @ around 75%

For those unfamiliar with mossys work, he is here commenting on the results when crossing DC with mossys gem. The AF trait is as known a non dominant trait when crossed to a sativa, however its a dominant trait when crossed to a true afghan indica. That tells us that the AF trait is recessive in the afghan, my conclusion that follows is not based on this observation alone, but on a string of circumstantial evidence that I have found and that im trying to patch together to make a comprehensive hypothesis from.

My theory differs from yours in one significant way, I dont think it developed from a non automatic indica to ruderalis through cultivation in a northern climate. But rather the opposite way around, that its original form is the automatic cannabis, which through acclimatization and cultivation in a southern climate developed into the Indica.

The ancient original motherplant of cannabis could very likely be the ruderalis, promptly labeled "ditch weed", in my opinion. Ive launched this notion before mossys comment, and before reading this thread in the auto breeders thread and in the northern connection social group. Its actually been somewhat of an obsession of mine for a while.

I just wanted to launch it here aswell to give you all something to ponder.

 

[arcticsun]

I think it is essential for us to preserve landrace, native, cultivar genetics before they are all gone. We don't know what ramifications not doing so would have on the humanity hundreds, thousands, years from now. Is it possible we lose important genetic traits of cannabis so much over time we lose some of its essential compounds? I don't know the answer, but older smokers agree often that cannabis isn't quite what it was years ago. It's a plant and as a plant we should be preserving it. We might need it when we all have to move to mars, lol.

A note to others comments on it's history. I don't remember where (I believe somewhere in South America, somebody may have mentioned it) that cannabis was supposedly not a native plant. Yet they found evidence of cannabis way before any record of any culture being able to travel the sea's that far.

I think humans have been traveling the oceans long before our history tells us. I also think that cannabis being found in places it's not native too, long before what what we believe was the first travelers across seas, is a giant discovery that nobody wants to talk about because it involves cannabis.

Maybe someone can put some sense to what im saying with some info. Im far from any sort of historian.

I agree with many, our ignorant cultures can learn from these ancient cultures about the use and love of cannabis.

Peace

Thor Heyerdahl, all you need to know my friend, he is a remarkable man.

 

[pindulinka]

Excellent thread, thanks Zamalito for starting this!
P.

 

[mriko]

Over the years I think environment has played a roll in decreasing that genetic diversity (like the droughts in afghanistan wiping out the genes for larger plants).

I don't agree with that. in this case it's only a matter of irrigation. Give them enough water and they'll grow huge. The main factor in genetic diversity decreasing is human intervetion, through selection.

One of the things DJ short says about ruderalis is that its a pheno that's created when indica is bred for a northern climate and I agree with this.

Nope again, Western Siberia has a population of indica plant, locally used to produce hand-rubbed charas of high potency.


sativa, indica, ruderalis, there is actually no general consensus about what is what (we growers use the Schultes classification, but there are others as well).
Ruderalis is usually considered as auto-flowering plant and basta. Well, it can be indica, can be sativa, and not necessarily auto-flowering. Ruderalis means wild, not AF.

If not done yet, I recommend to read Karl Hillig's genetic study. It certainly has its limits, as acknowledged by the author, but brings in lots of thinking. See attached pdf.

Irie !

 

[MotherNature]

Good question muddy, I was going to ask the same thing, they all look interesting. Regarding central europe, ruderalis type plants exist in Moravia, part of the Czech Republic. They are descended from the Scythian cannabis seeds planted there by the romans centuries ago. I have been gifted a quantity of these seeds and will be test growing them shortly. I'll know exactly the characteristics of this cultivar and whether it has ruderalis traits soon, I;m interested to see if it autoflowers and what the potency is like, my friend who collected the seeds says the plants are more potent than you may expect but not by much, I am interested in seeing the results of crossing this cultivar to things like Herijuana, the main interest being that this cultivar is fully acclimated to northern europe and therefore may be a good building block for some early finishing outdoor strains.

Guest, did you grow them (these probable Scythian-like plants) and could you share of more info and photos about them?

And could you show here that Afghan plants pics you meant above?

 

[MotherNature]

to Zamalito: please show that photo of Richard Evans Schultes between male and female plants. What book it is from?

 

[boldheadrasta]

i loved this post and read it today from beginning to end, i learned a lot, thx to zamalito and consorts! but i still can't make myself an opinion..... about indica, sativas & ruderalis...
from my own experience and travels in himachal pradesh from 1979 to 1990, there, the local people differentiate 3 kinds of cannabis....

1/ the jungle: it grows wild, can be in sunny or shadowy places but in the wild, the plants are what "we" call "sativas" in the sense that they are tall, skinny, with very skinny leaves and no "compact buds", the color ranges from light green to purple, they can be very sticky and according to the locals and the saddhus it's from the jungli plants that one makes the best charas, i tend to agree with that, and that would be the original landrace to my point of view, it can grow very high in very difficult conditions, little water, very cold weather, surprisingly (as "sativas have longer flowering...) the jungle charas is often rubbed early in the season, starting end of september, some locals rub a little earlier and the charas is then "katcha" (young) one gets stone but it doesn't last...

2/ the baguidjah: it means "cultivated" (by man obviously...) it is grown by local farmers for three reasons, first the charas rubbed from it, second the fiber which is used, and third the seeds which are used to make oil (for cooking) and the next year crop.... the locals dont kill the males so the ganja used to make "baguidjah charas" is always seedy...
most malana cream is baguidjah, and that's where i wanna come, in a baguijah field in the indian himalayas, most of the plant will have that "arrow pointing to the sky" look, with a very long stem and one main bud which looks to me more what we call "indica", i think that comes mainly from the fact that the plants are so close one to another in a cultivated field that they end up doing only one main big bud, and a long stem usable for fibre, they look very similar to the cultivated field of marrocco... the hash made from these plants can be creamier than jungle, but to my taste it's less potent, another common belief there is the higher the field, the stronger the charas, and i tend to also agree with this, i have seen and done charas in baguijahs or jungle up to 3000 m high. it seems there that' the higher the altitude, the more trichomes...
In a field of baguijah, one can see many different strains!! orange, red, pink or yellow hairs, all types of green, purples, blues and yellow, i have even seen a leopard plant (and that was no disease or parasite, the plant was very healthy...) but all with the same arrow structure

3/the jungli baguidjah, which the local people say its baguidjah gone feral, and those patches of jungli/baguijahs grow different in the wild where they have space to express themselves and they can grow some big plants with many strong stems and big buds defitely those look more indica with many very compact big buds which can look very close to the plants "cultivated" in afghanistan (from the pics and videos i saw from there...) these make a very potent charas too....

 

[mriko]

Also, Malana people regularly collect seeds from wild plants to do some selection/breeding work.

Irie !