True Terpenes VISCOSITY extract liquifier LAB TESTS: Mineral oil but no terps!!

[Gray Wolf]

Soooo, Mother's and Muther's day is over. Are ya'll ready for some factual input?

The GC-MS results are inconclusive as to what exactly it is, so HPLC-MS required to identify non volatile constitutes.

To guarantee impartiality, my prefered lab is searching for a 4th party lab with the necessary equipment and standards to positively identify it, and the cost involved.

The test results from the samples that I submitted were definitely different from the initial triterpene samples that they tested, but it was unclear exactly what it is.

Some of the peaks could be either plant or mineral oil, as well as heavier monoterpenes for which my lab of choice has no standard. Positively identifying the attendant non volatile peaks using HPLC-MS should answer that question.

More tomorrow, after we've established a suitable 4th party lab and budget.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Edited for civility

 

[Gray Wolf]

Ummmm, don't you think we should wait until we identify what it is before celebrating?

So far we have identified that it doesn't match mineral oil, but we don't have terpene standards for it either and need to further test it using HPLC-MS analysis to positively identify the non volatile peaks.

A puzzlement that I'm assured that we can sort through, but still a mystery until we have further data points.

More when I hear back.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Ummmm, don't you think we should wait until we identify what it is before celebrating?

So far we have identified that it doesn't match mineral oil, but we don't have terpene standards for it either and need to further test it using HPLC-MS analysis to positively identify the non volatile peaks.

A puzzlement that I'm assured that we can sort through, but still a mystery until we have further data points.

More when I hear back.

Nope, not at all. You keep focusing only on "mineral oil" but this thread is about more than that. Also, you posted that the lab thinks some peaks are plant or mineral oil, so Im not sure why youre saying there isnt mineral oil in there at this point?

Excluding your testing, none of the five labs that looked at 6 different samples found any signs of terpenes or terpenoids. None, including Dr. Pappas. So I think its much more likely the lab you used gave an incorrect guess that there may be heavier monoterpenes along with the plant or mineral oils. However, even if there are some monoterps in there, there is also other stuff that arent terps, contrary to TT's claims.

The issues in this thread are:
1. Is there mineral oil in there?
2. Is there something just as bad as mineral oil thats from plants?
3. Is there vegetable oil of some type in there? (Which is much more likely to cause lipoid pneumonia than not)
4. Is there anything in there other than 100% terpenes (which include terpeneoids)?

So far all the labs tests together have found:
1. Possibly
2. No data either way
3. Possibly
4. YES

 

[Ringodoggie]

Moving in the right direction for you, Ninja. However, I'll bet you a bottle of Scotch that Future won't do shit to True Terps on his site or anywhere else, regardless of the outcome.

 

[Gray Wolf]

Nope, not at all. You keep focusing only on "mineral oil" but this thread is about more than that. Also, you posted that the lab thinks some peaks are plant or mineral oil, so Im not sure why youre saying there isnt mineral oil in there at this point?

Excluding your testing, none of the five labs that looked at 6 different samples found any signs of terpenes or terpenoids. None, including Dr. Pappas. So I think its much more likely the lab you used gave an incorrect guess that there may be heavier monoterpenes along with the plant or mineral oils. However, even if there are some monoterps in there, there is also other stuff that arent terps, contrary to TT's claims.

The issues in this thread are:
1. Is there mineral oil in there?
2. Is there something just as bad as mineral oil thats from plants?
3. Is there vegetable oil of some type in there? (Which is much more likely to cause lipoid pneumonia than not)
4. Is there anything in there other than 100% terpenes (which include terpeneoids)?

So far all the labs tests together have found:
1. Possibly
2. No data either way
3. Possibly
4. YES

So both TT and Future4200 are lying. Because Future said he knows whats in Viscosity. That means both deserve to be hung out to dry, even if there isnt mineral oil but there is plant oil (like vegetable oil or something), etc. Futures only saving grace is if he goes hard to TT and kicks them out of his site, then he may show he isnt in their pocket. Otherwise hes colluding and should be considered as guilty as TT.

Not being monoterpene, doesn't mean that it isn't a terpene.

For labs whom deal extensively with mono, sesqui, and diterpenes, not having standards for heavier terpenes is not unusual.

I think it is more likely that my lab thinks its important to insure that they know precisely what they are talking about, by verifying their suspicions with supporting data, before putting their professional credentials on the line on something this important.

More on that when I have more.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Not being monoterpene, doesn't mean that it isn't a terpene.

For labs whom deal extensively with mono, sesqui, and diterpenes, not having standards for heavier terpenes is not unusual.

I think it is more likely that my lab thinks its important to insure that they know precisely what they are talking about, by verifying their suspicions with supporting data, before putting their professional credentials on the line on something this important.

More on that when I have more.

I am not saying a monoterpene isnt a teprene. Im saying from what you wrote, the lab said there are things other than terps in Viscosity, and those things may be plant or mineral oil. Correct?

From what you wrote, it sounds like the lab found what they think are peaks of either plant or mineral oil, and peaks that may be heavy monoterpenes. Did I misunderstand you?

Im still wondering why you said theres no mineral oil in Viscoisty, but thats not what you reported the lab said. Why are you saying theres no mineral oil?

I like your diligence. I just dont like ignoring all the evidence and facts thus far. Just to sum up, heres the findings form the labs I used so far in one place. If anyone would have heavy terps it would be Dr. Pappas I suspect. And he did look for triterpenes, as did the 3rd lab.

Dr. Pappas at Essential Oil University:
(very respected and at the top of his field in testing EO and terps. He is said to have one of the largest and most diverse terp standards collection in the world)

The sample did not show any signs of terpenes in the mixture. The sample is a blend of some very heavy, non-volatile, odorless material, along with some mineral oil.

Lab #1 that wishes to be anonymous:

No terpenes where found, but we did find mineral oil, some type of isopar, and unidentified heavy material

Lab #3 that wishes to be anonymous:

Ran the sample and took a look. No terpenes whatsoever. We want to do additional tests and look further into this before we release results. What I can say is that their claims do not appear to be correct online.

Will get back to you probably next week depending on how the additional tests go.

My gut is that you may be right, that there may be mineral oil in there. – No Squalene was found.

YUP! Pretty much confirmed it today. We ran a sample of mineral oil from the store against it, and the same kind of large hump appeared.

I looks like it is just mineral oil, no terpenes or anything else. Maybe something added to make a lower viscosity that is nonvolitile.

Conclusion:
Unlike the label claim, this product contains 0 Terpenes or other volitile compounds, When compared to food grade mineral oil the chromatographs match, because of this we believe this sample appears to be mineral oil.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Moving in the right direction for you, Ninja. However, I'll bet you a bottle of Scotch that Future won't do shit to True Terps on his site or anywhere else, regardless of the outcome.

If he is a good a person as he thinks he is he better. Karamas a bitch. His rep wont be the same ever again.


But nope I cant make that bet because I think I may have to send you abottle lol

 

[Ringodoggie]

LOL Well, if I ever run into you, drinks are on me.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I am not saying a monoterpene isnt a teprene. Im saying from what you wrote, the lab said there are things other than terps in Viscosity, and those things may be plant or mineral oil. Correct?

From what you wrote, it sounds like the lab found what they think are peaks of either plant or mineral oil, and peaks that may be heavy monoterpenes. Did I misunderstand you?

Im still wondering why you said theres no mineral oil in Viscoisty, but thats not what you reported the lab said. Why are you saying theres no mineral oil?

I like your diligence. I just dont like ignoring all the evidence and facts thus far. Just to sum up, heres the findings form the labs I used so far in one place. If anyone would have heavy terps it would be Dr. Pappas I suspect. And he did look for triterpenes, as did the 3rd lab.

Dr. Pappas at Essential Oil University:
(very respected and at the top of his field in testing EO and terps. He is said to have one of the largest and most diverse terp standards collection in the world)
Lab #1 that wishes to be anonymous:
Lab #3 that wishes to be anonymous:

You've made it clear what you do and don't like, but the point is that you continue to jump to the finish line ahead of the test and supporting evidence.

In this case my evidence and my statements that you are twisting, making it my issue.

You were also randomly misusing the word monoterpene, which is why I called you on it.

Since presumably you will be paying the tester directly this time, you will also see the results. Don't you think that would be a more credible time to do your public announcements?

 

[ExtractNinja]

In this case my evidence and my statements that you are twisting, making it my issue.

What am I twisting? im not trying to misrepresent you. If you are talking about the mineral oil question, im just wondering why you wrote this. Its an honest question:
"So far we have identified that it doesn't match mineral oil,"

I am wondering who has identified that. Who is we? Because the 3rd lab i used found the exact opposite, as did Dr. Pappas (who identified a bunch of peaks)

You were also randomly misusing the word monoterpene, which is why I called you on it.

Again how so? I dont see how you called me on anyting. Im honestly asking you. It seemed you thought I didn't know a monoterpene is a terpene class, so I pointed out I knew a monoterp is a terp.

I think we talking past each other. I am honestly confused about the lab statement, thats why I asked. It souunds like the lab found peaks they think are plant or mineral oil, and other peaks they hink maybe heavy monoterps. Is that not right?

I think you are a bit defensive right now. If you dont see that i am asking you honeset questions I guess I cant convince you otherwise.

Since presumably you will be paying the tester directly this time, you will also see the results. Don't you think that would be a more credible time to do your public announcements?

No. Like I wrote before, were not waiting on a movie review. This stuff could really hurt people, and at the least TT is guilty of false advertising, so better safe than sorry considering all the evidence thus far (tests and TTs actions). The longer we wait to ring the alarm bell the more people could be injured, through fraud and/or physically.

 

[satival]

*grabs popcorn*


The truth is probably somewhere in-between. Testing complex mixtures of similar compounds is inherently difficult (like a big mix of alkanes/alkenes/terpenes). GC-MS, HPLC etc are great for identifying simple mixtures but when its 20 compounds of similar mol. weight/charge... I wouldn't want to be that guy testing it. Broad, undefined peaks are not easy for even a skilled analytical chemist.



No vested interest, and I am not a skilled analytical chemist. We shall see... Just glad that people even care tbh.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Testing Update:

Because Gray Wolfs lab wants to use a new lab for HPLC-MS, which I am pyaing for, I asked the very smart MagisterChemist over at Future what he would suggest I do for my testing. Here is what he wrote. I will do what he suggestes for my testing.

Old Gold's lab is doing more testing to see whats in Viscosity. And DemonTrich is going to get GC-MS of a new Viscosity sample Im sending him.

MagisterChemist wrote to Dead on Future:

https://future4200.com/t/true-terpenes/12544/219

You’re right but that’s almost an unfalsifiable argument. There may be a terpene in there somewhere but if the bulk of it is non terpenes then their advertising was false. I agree the way to go is not to give a negative result of containing no common terpenes. What’s needed is a positive result identifying the largest constituents.

MagisterChemist wrote to me on Future:

https://future4200.com/t/true-terpenes/12544/221?u=extractninja

IMO the blind GCMS tests earlier were conclusive, and the only counterargument is to make fraud accusations. So you might as well not waste your time since anyone who claimed that about the last round would just say the same thing again. It is kind of sad none of these third party tests have had results or the ones that have come out have been kind of aimed in the wrong direction.

https://future4200.com/t/true-terpenes/12544/223?u=extractninja

I would send it to a lab with a GCMS library, and ask them to run a scan and try and ID the 5 largest peaks or so. I mean ideally they could ID all of them but if the mess you showed is representative they probably wouldn’t be able to.

 

[ExtractNinja]

Just a friendly announcement:

it looks like Future4200 site now blocks VPNs. Which is what I use to stay anonymous. If thats really happening its a change that occored over night, just as the True Terpens thread started taking off. If i was the suspcious type I would guess Future is now block VPN to try and stop me from posting. Too bad Im also an AnonymousNinja and I know how to get around VPN blocks.

Maybe the truth hurts you Dustin? Own up and do what you said you would do, ban TT and light them up on social media. Only the truth will set you free!

 

[Gray Wolf]

What am I twisting? im not trying to misrepresent you. If you are talking about the mineral oil question, im just wondering why you wrote this. Its an honest question:
"So far we have identified that it doesn't match mineral oil,"

I am wondering who has identified that. Who is we? Because the 3rd lab i used found the exact opposite, as did Dr. Pappas (who identified a bunch of peaks)


Again how so? I dont see how you called me on anyting. Im honestly asking you. It seemed you thought I didn't know a monoterpene is a terpene class, so I pointed out I knew a monoterp is a terp.

I think we talking past each other. I am honestly confused about the lab statement, thats why I asked. It souunds like the lab found peaks they think are plant or mineral oil, and other peaks they hink maybe heavy monoterps. Is that not right?

I think you are a bit defensive right now. If you dont see that i am asking you honeset questions I guess I cant convince you otherwise.


No. Like I wrote before, were not waiting on a movie review. This stuff could really hurt people, and at the least TT is guilty of false advertising, so better safe than sorry considering all the evidence thus far (tests and TTs actions). The longer we wait to ring the alarm bell the more people could be injured, through fraud and/or physically.

This is exactly why I was quietly waiting the end results, instead of feeding tidbits as they arrived.

If you read what I wrote, versus what you wrote, further discussion on the matter of twisting is unnecessary.

Your headlong rush to declare victory, and denigrate the other players, before the establishment of solid empirical data, detracts from your message and credibility.

Your denigrating and trashing the other players is also off putting and your belief that you will get anywhere positive talking to me and others the way you are attempting, suggest a tenuous grasp of the realities of human nature.

I've already stated what my next move is and the projected schedule. I'll report back when I have that information to share.

 

[Weird]

Your headlong rush to declare victory, and denigrate the other players, before the establishment of solid empirical data, detracts from your message and credibility.

excellent point but expecting the same sagely wisdom and patience as a scientist while being subject to real life market dynamics as a non-scientific participant thereof creates a level of frustration that you might be insulated from because of strictly scientific engagement


that is why taking the scenario at face value and discussing it using practical and impersonal problem/solution dialog simply opens minds to challenging the paradigm of this behavior for a greater end for all


anything else is still the judge waiting for the jury regardless of how salient or clinical

 

[ExtractNinja]

This is exactly why I was quietly waiting the end results, instead of feeding tidbits as they arrived.

If you read what I wrote, versus what you wrote, further discussion on the matter of twisting is unnecessary.

Your headlong rush to declare victory, and denigrate the other players, before the establishment of solid empirical data, detracts from your message and credibility.

Your denigrating and trashing the other players is also off putting and your belief that you will get anywhere positive talking to me and others the way you are attempting, suggest a tenuous grasp of the realities of human nature.

I've already stated what my next move is and the projected schedule. I'll report back when I have that information to share.

I expect people to act not out of response to their feeling about me, but about the evidence and facts. If you find it impossible to deal with me, unlike many of the other highly respected and very smart people Im dealing with here and on Future right now, thats on you and your personalty, not on me.

I do like you but your horse sits really high.

 

[CannaRed]

TT posted this Leafly article on Facebook.



How True Terpenes Prepares for the Future of Terpene Testing
True Terpenes
PRESENTED BY TRUE TERPENES

(Courtesy of True Terpenes)
This article is presented by True Terpenes, a provider of high-quality terpene isolates and blends that are crafted in accordance with cGMP, ISO 9001, and FSSC 22000 standards.

Terpenes, the chemical compounds that are largely responsible for the flavor and smell of cannabis, are having a bit of a moment these days. Cannabis chemists and consumers alike are learning more every day about the effect these aromatic chemicals have on not just the character, but also the effects of cannabis strains.

While terpenes play a particular role in cannabis chemistry, these compounds aren’t unique to the plant. Indeed, terpenes are found throughout the plant kingdom. And since evolution conserves energy where it can, terpenes that are found in one plant are molecularly identical to the same terpene from a different source—that is, a linalool terpene is a linalool terpene, whether it’s harvested from lavender flowers or cannabis buds.


(Courtesy of True Terpenes)
Testing Terpenes Today

That identical molecular makeup allows the team at True Terpenes to use isolated botanical terpenes to recreate the flavors of cannabis strains without using the cannabis plant. Crafted from botanical sources, True Terpenes provides both isolated terpenes and terpene blends to clients from cannabis vape cart manufacturers to ice cream shops.

“People are learning a lot about terpenes these days, but they’ve actually been familiar with them all their lives,” says True Terpenes marketing manager Benjamin Disinger. “When you peel an orange or smell a rose, those are terpenes in action.”

While botanical terpenes are chemically identical to terpenes extracted from cannabis, they are derived from plants that are easier to distill at scale. That’s because extractors have plenty of botanical options to draw terpenes from, so they can choose the plant that provides the purest terpene product from the start. That saves producers time by reducing how many distillations they have to perform to wind up with a product that’s ready for consumption.


(Courtesy of True Terpenes)
Ready for consumption, though, remains a slightly foggy term when it comes to the terpene industry. Despite the prevalence of terpenes in nature and commercial products alike, there’s currently no regulation around the isolation and production of these compounds. What pesticides were applied to the plants that terpenes were extracted from? What residual solvents were used in the extraction process? What’s an acceptable level of heavy metals in a finished terpene isolate?

In many jurisdictions, these are questions that do not have solid answers yet. But when they’re added to a product, everything that is in a terpene isolate or blend will come with it. For cannabis companies looking to add flavors and aromas to products like vape carts, it’s imperative that they have confidence in what’s in their terpene blend and know that it won’t bring about any surprises when their final product goes out for testing.

“States are determining their own safety standards in the cannabis industry,” says Disinger. “In Colorado and California, those standards are very strict, while some states have pretty much no regulation at all. For companies like ours that operate across state borders, it’s imperative that we not only meet the strictest safety standards, but hold ourselves to even higher ones to prepare for the future.”


(Courtesy of True Terpenes)
Staying Ahead of the Curve

That’s why the True Terpenes employs a team of compliance officers who are dedicated to keeping tabs on developing regulations around terpenes and ensuring the company’s practices aren’t just up to snuff, but ahead of the curve.

“We do everything in the name of consumer safety,” says Alesya Bradley, quality and regulatory manager for True Terpenes. “With the cannabis industry maturing every day, we ensure that our products not only adhere to the most stringent quality and safety standards available, but exceed them. People deserve to know what they’re putting into their bodies.”

While it remains unclear how government agencies will regulate the growing terpenes industry, it’s a matter of when new rules will roll out, not if. In the interest of being prepared for new regulations coming down the road, True Terpenes’ team has developed its own set of stringent quality and safety standards in the meantime.

Their in-house standard, True Grade, was developed by monitoring regulations surrounding terpenes and cannabis products at a state level as they come online—and then working to surpass those requirements.


(Courtesy of True Terpenes)
Making True Grade

“True Grade was born out of necessity. Every state has their own differing standards and regulations when it comes to cannabis. What is a legal, allowable threshold for pesticides in one state, for instance, may not meet the standards in another,” says Bradley. “And these regulations are moving targets. What is acceptable today might not be acceptable tomorrow.”

To create True Grade, Bradley and her team compared each state’s regulations against each other, selecting the strictest facets from every category. The result is an aggregate of the toughest regulations found across the country.

To ensure all their products live up to the True Grade standard, the True Terpenes team tests their products for contaminants like heavy metals and pesticides left behind from the soil, and residual solvents left behind from the extraction process. They also test the naturally unstable terpenes with distillate against separation, cloudiness, and color change.

By developing—and continuing to update—their own set of in-house standards, the True Terpenes compliance team aims to provide customers with terpene isolates and blends that are safe and dependable, and protect manufacturers using their terpenes from potential recalls or other headaches that could arise alongside new terpene and cannabis regulations.

More than that, they’re hoping that developing a stringent set of standards on their own will help to shape the conversation around terpene regulations moving forward.

“With terpenes being adopted more widely every day, we want to make sure we’re being proactive,” says Disinger. “We’re hopeful that True Grade can be a standard for the rest of the industry to follow.”

SPONSORED ARTICLE
TERPENES
TRUE TERPENES

True Terpenes
https://trueterpenes.com/

https://www.leafly.com/news/industry/how-true-terpenes-prepares-for-the-future-of-terpene-testing

https://www.leafly.com/news/industry/how-true-terpenes-prepares-for-the-future-of-terpene-testing

 

[Gry]

How long has True Terpenes been doing business ?

 

[dank.frank]

ROFL. If that isn't the biggest bunch of "save our ass" PR that I've ever seen from a cannabis company. "True Grade was born out of necessity." - hahaha. No, really? You think? That's as bad as the Phylos response.

So weak. Corporate whores can't just talk to people like people. Have to speak in business jive so the vested interests aren't put off. Just read my signature. LOL.

THIS IS WHY ICMAG EXISTS.

To grow and produce our own. To avoid ever having to participate in purchasing products from outside sources.

What we need to be doing now, is getting the people together from this thread that DO know what they are doing, to create an old school step by step, journal, describing what equipment and resources are necessary for us, to extract, refine, concentrate, terpenes, from our own cannabis flowers, for the purpose of making our own vape pens, if that is what we want.

It can't be that hard to set up a roto evap with condensation column, etc..

What happened to the spirit of the movement. Let's quick looking for the best product to buy and start looking for the best thread on how to do it.

That aside, ExtractNinja, I think Gray Wolf is right. Just slow down a bit and wait for the full results. It would seem, if we were calculating odds at this point, perhaps they did just shift a bit (more) in your favor, but your response dictating what people must or must not do in order to rectify this scenario is far fetched, and I agree, like Gray Wolf suggested, given the general behavior of people, will not get you the response or outcome you desire.

I've been in your favor this entire time, but the record is in the thread and what each person has said they will do in response is there in writing. There is no need for you to push those issues. Let people do as they will and let that define their character as it just plays itself out naturally. Just my opinion on the more personal side of things.



dank.Frank