The Search for Trip Weed

[yesum]

So I got one plant each of Golden Tiger and Zamaldelica and preferred the GT. However, I was looking for trip weed and did not trip. Both are strong and the buzz was up with some body with the Zamaldelica more so. One plant sample but I have so many strains these two are not gonna be front and center, not sure when I will try again.

The GT had some dud seeds and the plant was not vigorous or the Zamaldelica.

 

[Breadwizard]

I think with the zamaldelica, it's a bit of a phenohunt. The ones I grew had pretty variable expressions as far as look and high goes. The aromas were different too, except they all had that carrot/root veg undertone, either in the foreground or lurking in the back. being a polyhybrid, I suspose that's to be expected somewhat.

I was reading on another thread that when tested, the cannabinoid content is quite variable as well. I still think that the right pheno is dynamite, but not every one will be what you're looking for.

 

[GreenAndFast]

A few months back I had an accident.
My entire grow was fertilized by an undetected male "Old Timers Haze".

It was extremely slow to show its sex, and when I finally noticed it had - it was too late.

As fortune would have it it was right in front of the fan.

3 zamaldelicas, 4 Golden Tigers, 4 Killer A5 all got a big dose of that pollen. I got 1000s of seeds of each. Oh dang!

Here is a picture of the first Zamaldelica x Old Timers Haze I've grown out.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=85273&pictureid=2109335&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

Wow, I am totally impressed !

Overall, it has a very robust aromatic nose.

What first hits you is an almost diesel like smell, with fresh cut cedar and the tiniest hint of sweet and sour.

She is heavier than either parent, and finished in about 11 weeks!

and the buzz - WOW! I will give you a more in depth report after doing a little more testing.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=85273&pictureid=2109336&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]


Zamal and Tigers and haze, oh my.... Xerb

What a stroke of luck. Would love to take a peak in those lines. Every cloud.....:yay:

 

[GreenAndFast]

Old timer's killer. Sounds deadly.

 

[ThaiBliss]

Shitty pictures!

Thanks for the critique. That is a picture of a polaroid picture from 1982, I'm taking a wild guess that it was long before you were born.

I thought "what are those flowers?", i did not see it was weed, lol... What's the point? And yes, you can find pure afghan seeds on the web...
Sorry to disturb...

Make up your mind. It doesn't look like weed you have seen, but you can find it on the web. Good luck.

The point is, people grow genetics and cross it with something else, then continue to call it what one of the parents were. I'm trying to demonstrate a bit of refined knowledge to people who don't know any better because they are not old enough to have experienced what diversity from pure, long inbred strains used to look like and was so common a few decades ago.

That plant looked exactly like a plant from Kandahar Afghanistan from a picture taken back in the 1950s or 1960s. It hadn't changed because people didn't cross it to something else. When you cross something to an inbred line, it is no longer an example of that inbred line and never will be again. The same thing happened to sativas.

This may be valuable information if you happen to go spouting off saying something ill informed like, "I tried Thai and it wasn't good". It is highly likely you don't know what you are talking about, and you might know that if you are open minded enough to glean information from people who have been around a long time.

Thanks,

ThaiBliss

 

[Breadwizard]

Trucking along. Some of the hairs have started to turn, smell has taken a turn more towards spiced "warmer" citric, like orange or mandarin. The "carrot" has taken a back seat for now.

 

[Knop]

Hi

Hi

Hi Thaibliss
what year did you grow your best nevil haze?
which breeder?

has your list grown in recent years?
Jamaican Ganja
Thai Sticks
Sumatran
Neville's Haze (acid pheno) - A good example of a more recent discovery. Wich breeder?

View Image

Wow! Really nice. I know Donald thinks highly of his both his Mango Haze and the Loas. I haven't tried Mango Haze yet, but I got to take some seeds of that with me. I know I've asked him, probably more than once, but I think the Laos is a cleaner high, with no hangover, but both really strong. I wouldn't mind hearing it again Wally.

The only success I've ever had growing something like Thai Stick, was... well, Thai Stick, and a special Neville's Haze pheno that I believe people refer to as the "Acid Pheno". I've seen some Zamaldelica phenos that look very much like the pictures I posted of the Gypsy Thai Stick cross and Laos. I haven't hit on a Thai pheno high yet. I've only gotten the very spooky highs which are like Thai but lacking the exhilarating/speedy euphoria. I believe Yoss33 has. Everyone should check out his grows.

All smoke reports should be taken with a grain of salt, as these S.E. Asian plants are extremely difficult to grow outside the subtropics or tropics. I'm been trying my whole long life, and have only had success a couple of times. The scarcity of these genetics hasn't helped much. I'm not the best grower, so that's why I'm heading to the tropics. LOL

Merry Christmas Everyone. All the Best in the search!

ThaiBliss

 

[ThaiBliss]

Hi Thaibliss
what year did you grow your best nevil haze?

The last world class weed I have grown was that Neville's Haze back in about 2008 or so.

which breeder?

Using the term "breeder" is a stretch. Very few people are doing more than outcrossing and producing seeds. It appears to me that ACE Seeds is doing breeding. Charlie Garcia (Canabiogen) was breeding, as well as was Kangativa. If Kanga ever sells seeds, I'd look for his stuff. I really haven't come across enough evidence to indicate anyone else as a "breeder", but I digress.

I acquired the Neville's Haze seeds, I believe, from Marc Emery back in about 1998 or so.

has your list grown in recent years?
Jamaican Ganja
Thai Sticks
Sumatran
Neville's Haze (acid pheno)

I have not successfully grown or consumed anything better, or anything even close to as good, as those in the last 15 years.

That being said, I'm close to testing my selection of the cross from Gypsy Thai Stick (Kangativa's selected mother clone) x Neville's Haze 21 (Neville's selection) x Mullumbimby Madness (Bushweed's selection, I believe).

This is some shake from a male plant that turned hermie and looks like it produced a few seeds:

Here is the plant when it was young:

To repeat the story, I grew about a dozen of these Gypsy Thai Stick crosses. One was strikingly more pungent than the rest with the cat piss aroma that reminds me of Thai. This plant also had the most Thai plant looking skinny, long leaves.

Now that the plant matured enough to make seeds, the aroma is still strong and complex. It's citric, turpentine, cinnamon, peppery, tea leaves, mango, metallic, and more. I keep forgetting that Lipton tea leaf aroma that comes on after a cure rings my memory bells for those Thai Sticks.

Best,

ThaiBliss

 

[therevverend]

Using the term "breeder" is a stretch. Very few people are doing more than outcrossing and producing seeds. It appears to me that ACE Seeds is doing breeding. Charlie Garcia (Canabiogen) was breeding, as well as was Kangativa.

I don't mean to disrespect Ace and Charlie but they're basically taking other people's strains and crossing them like everybody else. Just that they're rare/tropical varieties. Name 2 great strains they bred from scratch? Bangi Haze for instance was bred by somebody else. They're preservers, collectors, testers, and distributers but I don't see them doing their own original breeding. The way DJ Short did with Blueberry or Sam did with Skunk #1 or the Haze Bros did with Haze. It's actually quite rare these days for something to come out of the woodwork and when it does it's usually a Volunteer or hermie of some sort. It's actually quite sad now that I think about it..

 

[Thule]

I don't mean to disrespect Ace and Charlie but they're basically taking other people's strains and crossing them like everybody else. Just that they're rare/tropical varieties. Name 2 great strains they bred from scratch?

I don't know how familiar you are with Cannabiogen's gear but isn't Destroyer a good example of what Charlie has bred? "This backcross between two of the best studs of CBG has been very complicated and its development has taken over 7 years." There are several others that aren't just F1s. Caribe, Nepal Jam, Taskenti, Panama... just to name a few. Even his landraces have been selected for many generations.

 

[therevverend]

Destroyer's exactly the type of strain we're talking about. It's a hybrid of two other strains that came to Charlie. It's a hybrid of a Meao Thai and a Mexican x Columbian that Charlie obtained. It's a good selection but no different then what other breeders are doing. Same with the Caribe, the Tashkenti, etc. Nep Jam is a Nepali type he obtained crossed by a Jamaican he obtained. I'm not putting down the work or criticizing the strains.

It seems like some of you have a double standard. When someone makes a selection of a Gorilla Glue #4 x a (Girl Scout Cookie x SFV OG) you criticize the breeder for pollen chucking. But when Ace crosses a (Zamal X (Malawi x Thai) all bred by someone else it proves what great breeders they are. I don't think either breeder should be put down, they're working with plants they love making seeds. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[ThaiBliss]

Greetings,

It looks to me like my point is completely being missed. It's my fault, I guess, because I'm assuming people know what is meant by breeding. Let me be clear. Outcrossing is not breeding no matter what strains you are using. Line breeding, otherwise known as inbreeding, is where the true breeding work is accomplished. Without line breeding, out crossing is just ruining genetics. This is what has been happening to Cannabis in the last 40 years. It is destroying the worlds genetic stocks because every yahoo and his brother is doing it. It's not preference, it's ignorance resulting in our genetic diversity being destroyed. What is galling to me, is that people are calling it "modern" breeding, as if it's somehow improved.

I partially blame this on the misuse of the term "landrace". As if good Cannabis strains were the result of the natural environment of where they came from. UTTER HORSE SHIT!!!!! People bred these strains. People had intelligence, even people from over 10,000 years ago. They applied breeding principles long before Mendel ever came up with his theory to explain it. Fuck Mendel. In fact, Luther Burbank, considered one of the greatest breeders of all time, boiled it down to a simple phrase, "breed the best and forget the rest". It wasn't "outcross the shit out of everything".

It takes many generations of inbreeding to refine the results of an outcross. This is because many of the desirable traits are recessive. In other words, traits disappear unless both parents express the genetic trait. I call out Dubi and Kangativa because I read their posts that explain that it takes 4 or 5 generations of inbreeding before they can "fix" a trait, or get all of the children to express the trait. The requires large numbers and culling nearly all individuals (forget the rest) out of the breeding population. They are working to consistently express the trait in the population.

I would recommend reading about true breeders of plants such as Luther Burbank. Nothing good comes from continually outcrossing. It seems the vast majority of Cannabis seed companies are doing lazy money grabbing techniques. They are preying upon a vast pool of uneducated seed buyers. I have witnessed in my lifetime the widespread destruction of Cannabis varieties. I don't understand why people are not getting these simple principles.

To be fair, I'm guilty of it myself. I've justified it by attempting to breed for consistency of the effect of the high, no matter what the other traits are, such as early flowering, which is what I also looked for. But that just makes me a half assed breeder/pollen chucker. I decided to change that now that I have some genetics that are predominately from the Chang Mai Thailand, Laos, and Northeastern Burmese areas of S.E. Asia that all have the trippy effect and restricted geography that has been noted where the best Thai Sticks were from. I've run out of a lifetime, and am forced to clear out my genetic stocks and focus far more narrowly. Moving to a near natural latitude of the strain that I loved the most, Thai, will take away incentive to try and change the genetics through outcrossing. I don't want them to ripen earlier. I don't want them to have bigger buds. I don't want them to look pretty in a bag. I want the indigenous pressures of a near geographic latitude that the variety came from. My only reason for outcrossing within the fairly narrow geographic area of the Thai, Laos, Burma borders near the Mekong river is a lack of pure seed stock. I need to use all of them because I don't have enough numbers of any one of them.

If anyone can help me who have Thai or Laos seeds in pure or nearly pure form, please IM me. So far, I've only had two people in 10 years with enough good evidence of what I'm looking for come forward. I know what I want because I've smoked it regularly for a long time, and I tried to grow them over and over again. I've seen how they look and smell. My profuse thanks to those friends.

ThaiBliss

 

[Donald Mallard]

Destroyer's exactly the type of strain we're talking about. It's a hybrid of two other strains that came to Charlie. It's a hybrid of a Meao Thai and a Mexican x Columbian that Charlie obtained. It's a good selection but no different then what other breeders are doing. Same with the Caribe, the Tashkenti, etc. Nep Jam is a Nepali type he obtained crossed by a Jamaican he obtained. I'm not putting down the work or criticizing the strains.

It seems like some of you have a double standard. When someone makes a selection of a Original Glue #4 x a (Girl Scout Cookie x SFV OG) you criticize the breeder for pollen chucking. But when Ace crosses a (Zamal X (Malawi x Thai) all bred by someone else it proves what great breeders they are. I don't think either breeder should be put down, they're working with plants they love making seeds. Different strokes for different folks.

i think the key here rev is one lot has already been heavily selected and requires little work to find a decent plant to use , in fact you barely have to even grow them out first due to the poor speciments already being weeded out ,
where as the more landrace types have had a lot less of that and require good selection and more plants to select from in order to create a better next generation..



sure both people are doing work , however one guys work takes a bit more skill than the other guys thats all ...



thaibliss ,
i have more seed coming from thailand , direct from there via a western country though ,
choc thai , thai stick , cambodian gold , maybe some others ,

ill see how many he sends , but id be happy to donate some to your cause if there is enough ,
he said he would send plenty as i am supplying him with a nice handful also ...

 

[romanoweed]

thaibliss, i call breeding wich is different to old breeding: modern breeding.

But i dont call it like that as if its necessarly improoved. I would at the most call it as possibly good for certain Peoples Taste, if these Peoples goal is to have stablity per example and if they can live with the inbreeding depression.

I just call modern breeding to differ between Landracebreeding like it was seemingly done everywhere for any kind of Fruits we consumed. By calling it like that i dont make any statement, as "modern" is not a word to associate with any good quality. Its simply a Timebased word or such.

I dont think that there was ZERO outcrossing going in old Landraces. As i found research that showed that Landrace were from a certain population cause most Landr. show a Phenotype expression that would emerge from a slightly variable Landscape . (If i understood that right in the Paper)

This was important discovery for me, cause i think trowing away 99 Plants and keeping one is very different to old Landrace breeding.
And the different Regions assumably forced a certain slight outcrossedness, or anyway i dont think that they bottlenecked so hard,they had sepearte pollination hills, where they did selections, they had only ONE TRY! If their One-of a-Hundret selection would be bad, the following year the resulting seed would be a Missselection, and few ways back, since in Thailand cant keep seeds much longer than a year

So: Landraces were very small closely outcrossed I GUESS, and i dont know if we can replicate that somewhere else then at Origin, cause we dont have the Landscape here that builds that difference between Regions it built at origin.

And also: I dont think that heavy bottlenecking is anything good for prservation.
I keep probably 50 percent keepers , 50 percent i cull

Landraces were selected, yes but NOT HEAVY BOTTLENECKED acording my Scientific Findings. Your bottlenecks probably bare no future, cause they possibly will be inbreeding depressed one day in the Future. The more you bottleneck the faster that happens.

 

[romanoweed]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I post it again cause so important telling that Landraces seemed to express phenotypes from a varying Landscape, therefore are wether :slightly outcrossed if you want so, or atleast selected into different directions.

read from page 8 till Page 26. Once i was on Page 26, it also shows evidence that they were selected to a downsized Genetic. From Page 26 on it compares modern vs old Breeding

Also often the preffered Landraces often deriver from selving they sayd.(not necessarly same as reversing, rather natural)

Here we go:

https://books.google.ch/books?hl=de&...ing%22&f=false[/FONT]

 

[Thule]

Destroyer's exactly the type of strain we're talking about. It's a hybrid of two other strains that came to Charlie. It's a hybrid of a Meao Thai and a Mexican x Columbian that Charlie obtained. It's a good selection but no different then what other breeders are doing. Same with the Caribe, the Tashkenti, etc. Nep Jam is a Nepali type he obtained crossed by a Jamaican he obtained. I'm not putting down the work or criticizing the strains.

I'm just not sure what you mean by breeding from scratch if Destroyer doesn't count. The Mexican/Colombian was someone elses work but breeding it's positive flowering characteristics into a landrace Thai is no easy task. I don't agree that CBG strains are just like any other seedbank's offerings. They have taken very hard to grow landraces and bred them into much more manageable versions, most often without losing their original magic. It's rare these days to see breeders come up with completely new hybrids purely from landrace stock like DJ Shorts, or SamS used to do. Charlie did, and was often candid about the parentals, etc.

 

[romanoweed]

so, thule did you smoke the original Landraces of Cannabiogen and compared it?.

I once asked someone who stablized a mostly Landrace Strain if it after stabilisation the strongest Pheno was as psychedelic, transformative, spiritual, just as ultimative as before stabilisation. he anwsered: nearly.

I also heard from couple people who breed alot, that by stabilisation you get more good Phenos, opposed to its initial State where you geed few OUTSTANDING Phenos.

 

[Thule]

so, thule did you smoke the original Landraces of Cannabiogen and compared it?.

I once asked someone who stablized a mostly Landrace Strain if it after stabilisation the strongest Pheno was as psychedelic, transformative, spiritual, just as ultimative as before stabilisation. he anwsered: nearly.

I also heard from couple people who breed alot, that by stabilisation you get more good Phenos, opposed to its initial State where you geed few OUTSTANDING Phenos.

That's my understanding as well. And the f1 is where this phenomenom peaks.

With regards to landraces though a lot of "cleaning work" is often necessary to get rid of trash phenos, which at the end leads to higher chances of finding those good phenotypes in your 10 pack, like you said. The price for that is that some heterogeneity is lost due to inbreeding. Most people would still rather buy the inbred line if the price tag is comparable.

The only CBG heirloom I grew was PCK. I haven't compared it to the Chitrali from RSC for example but western style breeding has made PCK a lot better suited for indoor which makes a big difference.

I find most of their stuff "close enough" to the originals to be interesting.

 

[Thule]

Maybe I'm biased though. Both my best indoor strain, and my best outdoor strain came from Cannabiogen.

 

[romanoweed]

not quiet: the ULTIMATE OUTSTANDING Phenos are also "lost" when stabilizing. An important thing if you ask me with MY Taste.

Atleast that is what people seemed to experience often.