The Search for Trip Weed

[vinrusso]

Ok then reunion island strain? ...I can't order ACE

Sure you can. there are plenty of retailers that carry ACE, and have Zamaldelica.

 

[therevverend]

i think the key here rev is one lot has already been heavily selected and requires little work to find a decent plant to use , in fact you barely have to even grow them out first due to the poor speciments already being weeded out ,
where as the more landrace types have had a lot less of that and require good selection and more plants to select from in order to create a better next generation..

But all that work was done by the people who gave or sold or whatever the strains to Ace or Charlie. They are the people who I look up to, who should have our admiration. They collected, preserved and selected the strains for 10-20-40 years before Charlie and Ace got ahold of the strains and cross bred them with each other. You're giving credit to people who didn't do the things you're saying.

I would recommend reading about true breeders of plants such as Luther Burbank. Nothing good comes from continually outcrossing.

Of course but Burbank also talks about hybrid vigor. His Russet Potato, berry varieties, roses, etc. were all hybrids. The difference here we both know is that the hybridization is the BEGINNING of the work not the end result. Burbank would make a hybrid, plant out thousands of seedlings, select the best dozen. Then plant out thousands more and cull most of them. Over 10, 20 generations you have your select inbred line. This is what true plant breeding is.

The reason why we aren't doing this, the breeders selling seeds aren't doing this, we can't grow the numbers because of the laws. Sadly the ones who will do it are the big corporations that can afford the patents, the certificates, and all the other bullshit..

I'm just not sure what you mean by breeding from scratch if Destroyer doesn't count. The Mexican/Colombian was someone elses work but breeding it's positive flowering characteristics into a landrace Thai is no easy task

No he didn't go to Thailand, get raw Thai landrace seeds, breed them out, create the Meao Thai. Then get a raw Mexican x Columbian cross and breed it out to get a refined Mexican Columbian strain.

Someone else had grown the Thai indoors for many years, selected and refined it (and maybe outcrossed it with something but that opens another can of worms) before Charlie got a clone or some seedlings. Then he crossed it by a Mexican x Columbian someone else had refined. They aren't inbred lines they're hybrids. Destroyer isn't a 2nd or 3rd or 5th generation inbred line. It's a first generation hybrid. Of course he had to obtain the strains in the first place and select the best ones to cross. Continually outcrossing gets ridiculous after awhile, My buddy has labels that are reaching double digits.

The seed banks, Soma, Ace, Bodhi, Neville, Cannbiogen, Greenhouse, Nirvana, etc., are the collectors, they have the connections in the community to pick up seeds and clones from various individuals and collectives, make an outcross, test it to make sure it's good, and then mass-market it. They have too much on their plate already, they don't have the time to focus on one strain for 10 years to develop it. This is why there's always beefs between these groups, when someone gives someone else's strain away, or wants more $ for a strain, or thinks they have rights to a strain they gave their buddy 5 years ago. If you're curious about how all this works talk to Mustafunk, I'm sure he'd enjoy it..

 

[Thule]

Unless you're breeding something that grows wild somewhere in the steppes miles away from people it's always going to be "someone elses work". No strain is untouched by human selection. I don't see why that makes it any less your work if you breed it into something completely different. And I'm not talking about shady seed selling practises. My point is that while lots of people are selling landraces collected by other people, f1s and polyhybrids as varieties etc, Cannabiogen has always been one of the companies that does put in the time to do proper selection. I was just surprised to see CBG on that list.

edit: And I think Kaiki did work on the Meao Thai before crossing it but found it impossible to acclimatize to his locale.

 

[Im'One]

I have had numerous bad experiences with overseas distributors. I started my buying seeds experience with ACE and was a loyal American customer. I stopped buying from most overseas, repackaged clumsy marketers who can't send seeds in time.
When ACE funds a way to make me a customer agin I will buy zameldelica

 

[sdd420]

Wasn’t that Karma’s Thai, he gave that to a lot of people

 

[ThaiBliss]

modern breeding... Its simply a Timebased word or such.

...I don't think that there was ZERO outcrossing going in old Landraces. As i found research that showed that Landrace were from a certain population cause most Landr. show a Phenotype expression that would emerge from a slightly variable Landscape . (If i understood that right in the Paper)

Landscape?! By "landscape" do they mean to include the people as part of the "landscape"? If not, W.T.F.!? Do we think people were hunter gatherers way, way, way back in the 1960s and 1970s? The bias in these studies is astounding to me. It's complete bullshit to assume that people were not significantly exerting breeding pressure on their strains. For hundreds of years, if not thousands of years.

Sure there was outcrossing going on. Nothing on the scale of what has happened to Cannabis in the last 40 years. Back then, outcrossing was two neighbors living in the same region or even valley growing the same strain and sharing seeds. Today, outcrossing is finding the two most different strains you can find and thinking you will keep the best of both kinds. You don't. You lose the best of each kind, and get hybrid vigor. It grows bigger buds, and you can't get anything that looks like the F1 in subsequent generations. It also makes restoring what one of the original parents looked like extremely difficult. This is exactly why most people selling seeds don't want you to have the original parents. Hybridization protects people's strain treasures.

This was important discovery for me, cause i think trowing away 99 Plants and keeping one is very different to old Landrace breeding.
And the different Regions assumably forced a certain slight outcrossedness, or anyway i dont think that they bottlenecked so hard,they had sepearte pollination hills, where they did selections, they had only ONE TRY! If their One-of a-Hundret selection would be bad, the following year the resulting seed would be a Missselection, and few ways back, since in Thailand cant keep seeds much longer than a year

So: Landraces were very small closely outcrossed I GUESS, and i dont know if we can replicate that somewhere else then at Origin, cause we dont have the Landscape here that builds that difference between Regions it built at origin.

And also: I dont think that heavy bottlenecking is anything good for prservation.
I keep probably 50 percent keepers , 50 percent i cull

Landraces were selected, yes but NOT HEAVY BOTTLENECKED acording my Scientific Findings. Your bottlenecks probably bare no future, cause they possibly will be inbreeding depressed one day in the Future. The more you bottleneck the faster that happens.

Yes, well we are talking extremes. From the landscape doing all the influence to saving seeds from only one plant. Unfortunately, the later is probably far more prevalent due to prohibition. On the other hand, I know very few growers who even save their seeds. They depend mostly on out crossers, which is why so many great plants/varieties have been lost forever.

I'm just not sure what you mean by breeding from scratch if Destroyer doesn't count. The Mexican/Colombian was someone elses work but breeding it's positive flowering characteristics into a landrace Thai is no easy task.

What am I missing here? The Mexican wasn't someone else's work? The Colombian wasn't someone else's work?

My experience with these old strains was that they were consistent, excellent quality, and excellent potency from year to year. I got Thai Sticks over a period of about 10 years. Every year they were indistinguishable from the previous year. Each stick was indistinguishable from the next stick from the bundle.

I don't see that from other strains today. Let's take Skunk #1. I looked through at least a dozen plants before I found a good one. Most were complete crap. The one I found was awesome. It was a stellar representation of the high from what most old school Colombian strains were like. It was also fast ripening and easy to grow indoors, with a phenomenal taste. I might not have found another good one like that if I looked through 100 more. I think this because I never smoked anyone else's that was that good.

The Thai Stick consistency was repeated in other strains. There were certain Colombian strains that we got every year, and they were the same every year over a period of about 5 years.

So how was it that there was such consistency back when everything was a landrace, and people were just lucky to select a good plant? Or these landraces were supposed to be very inconsistent and need modern breeding to get consistency.

People could not know this, unless they experienced it. Perhaps I had a very unique situation as far as how old I am, and my source of product. I think it was highly likely that my source was a world traveler who established relationships with people around the world and went back to the same people year after year for as long as the lack of commercialization or popularization of the sources lasted. This has allowed a certain wisdom that not everyone has. I was just lucky, or unlucky to know how much was lost. To be sure, every good source of good quality weed was lost when that source became popular. This is not snobbery, it's the inevitable result when money is the prime motivator, and the belief that the place where weed is grown is the magic of good weed. It's not. It's the skill of the breeder / caretaker of the genetics.

I once asked someone who stablized a mostly Landrace Strain if it after stabilisation the strongest Pheno was as psychedelic, transformative, spiritual, just as ultimative as before stabilisation. he anwsered: nearly.

I also heard from couple people who breed alot, that by stabilisation you get more good Phenos, opposed to its initial State where you geed few OUTSTANDING Phenos.

That's my understanding as well. And the f1 is where this phenomenom peaks.

Yes, exactly, and the F1 generation is an outcross. Initial breeding doesn't even start until the F2 generation. Crossing requires not an iota of skill.

Here is what I will concede. Smoking really bad weed is not even a thing anymore. Everything seems to be homogenized. No more garbage, but also no more highly potent strains around anymore. Not only is the potency homogenized, the type of high is homogenized. Weed, after weed, after weed, after weed all have similar highs.

Back when I was getting weed from all over the world, each was a unique experience. Mexican was generally extremely cerebral and so blissful. Fits of laughter always ensued. Jamaican ganja and Thai Stick were scary, trippy, exhilarating, thrill rides. Breath, just breath... keep breathing. Colombian was a narcotic, dreamy, floating, out of body experience. Indica was an instant hitting numbing, heavy weighted, physical, pin you to your couch, too much gravity experience. I should sleep because I'm so tired, but I can't! And on and on it went. You never know what you were going to get from the next batch of weed you were going to get. This made it FUN!!!!

I don't know what it is, but the more cerebral and trippy the weed was, the more I miss it.

ThaiBliss

 

[therevverend]

You've got to admit ThaiBliss you've got a very narrow taste in cannabis, one that's fairly eccentric. I don't think it's a potency thing, I'll cover that in a bit. I was reading about 'taste', what makes a good taster. If you're testing ice cream for example, you don't want someone with an exceptional sense of taste. Since nobody else can taste those nuances. You want someone with the most 'average' sense of taste because it will please the most people. Same idea with what makes a good cook. Maybe your cannabis receptors are exceptionally sensitive? When people praise my cooking I always say I'm a glutton who likes to eat lots of good food. Why would I cook something for myself that tastes bad?

I always say what we smoked when we first started smoking and really enjoying cannabis is what we'll remember and love for the rest of our lives. Smells and receptors stick around in our brains. Fucked up our government eradicated your favorites because of Richard Nixon's prejudices.

I started smoking in the early 90s and a lot of the new stuff doesn't always do it for me. (had to edit: I'll stand by my claim that I love all types of cannabis. But what I enjoy smoking on a regular basis is different) I had stuff from last year that hit all the right notes. Between the plants and the hash that I made. Stuff with a positive stimulating effect along with a body high I enjoy. I had a pheno of 88G13Hp that tastes like Xmas candy. Another one was a blue hybrid that sends waves of energy through your body, from your head chakra to your feet. You probably wouldn't enjoy them because of the body high. A lot of stuff has a 'dissociative' effect that a lot of people like but I believe you don't. Rather then an escape from reality you want a super duper strong dose of it!

The reason I don't think it's potency you're missing, I'm sure you've tried the concentrates and ultra-strong strains. You can take a huge hit of pure THC and blow yourself to the moon, get as high as you've ever gotten from cannabis. It doesn't do it for me and I doubt it does it for you. What are your other favorite substances that hit the right spot? Coffee? Wine? Mushrooms? Coke? Cactus? Toad? Cold-Food Powder? Probably tell you something about what you're looking for.

I don't want to delve into nebulous concepts like 'energy' and 'lay lines' but the time and place and by who stuff is grown has an effect. I know lots of people your age that are perfectly happy with the stuff they grow and breed their own best stuff now, that smoked all the imports and don't pine for them like you do. They love the old stuff and talk poetically about it but are happy with what they're growing now and aren't on a quest for the Holy Grail like you are. Probably why I like talking to you..

Have you tried Sonoma Coma? Tried growing some last year, had all males but my friend was successful. It's a very potent creeper type high. I still haven't decided if I like it or not. You should try it some time, not because I think you'd love it but it is something interesting. The plants were high yielding, some were very short and dense, others had thin leaves and an upright growth pattern. My friend had a 4 foot tall plant with a lb on it! It was awesome. Time and again I've been seeing these two morphs, a short squat type and a tall lanky gracile type.

I haven't spent a lot of time around here lately, haven't kept up with your thread. I hope you can make it to Hawaii. Or somewhere else tropical you can grow the plants you love. You're in a California hashplant environment growing tropical varieties. You'll find your success in a tropical area in less then 5 years, I'm sure.

 

[romanoweed]

Landscape?! By "landscape" do they mean to include the people as part of the "landscape"? If not, W.T.F.!? Do we think people were hunter gatherers way, way, way back in the 1960s and 1970s?

i mean that landscape allows for a certain style of Plant. Cause why is there only hallucinogen thai, and not hallucinogen afghan? probably cause the Landscape allows for it (and its just a guess) . The landscape allows for a certain style of plant, a certain type effect. And the University seen that in the offspring of raw Landraces (the shorter phenos of a nearby hill or such i guess)

Landscape?! The bias in these studies is astounding to me. It's complete bullshit to assume that people were not significantly exerting breeding pressure on their strains. For hundreds of years

the study assumes that people did infact put selective pressure to plants, so this information was wrongly transferred between me and you

Summ it up:Landscape might have a huge impact on what people select for. I say it again: to breed detached from the Natural/or artificial natural indoor Influence you would need to neutralize Growenviroment, wich is insane amount work.
That is same for Audio-Mastering: People have Mastering Studios with Neutral Sound to judge the Sound coming out of Speakers, thats why they have expensive Acoustic Threatment and such. If they dont, they would automatically make the best Sound for this very Room theyre in, and once played the created Audiofle elswhere it would sound shitty. Cause each enviroment has diffent sound.
Thats why Studios have a neutral Sound, so the Audiofile sounds evrywhere else the best (and not colored). The Enviroment has a huge impact. Each enviroment has its own. So, i can imagine this guids People what they select, in Audio like in Beeding. They DO select, but they are guided

So, i not shure if it is ONLY skill of breeders, Even the most professional Audioengineer could not mix music in a un-neutral enviroment, even he would be very openminded (like not caught up by Gear and super Studiosound). He could not do it, or atleast not even close as good, if the Enviroment-Sound is very colored. He needs to switch even between different Speakers, so to bypass the coloration of the most neutral sounding Speakers in the World. (Thats why you see a dozen Speakers in Studios)

Back to Plantbreeding:
I could place a Link where this Enviroment-neutralisation Process was described , i recall on mr.nice forum, but cant find it nomore. They need to run 10 generations or more to do it , while they spot the effect of the enviroment , and continually adjust for it.. till its neutral. Till the smoked-Weed-Effect doesent shift thowards this or that. Adjust Soilcomposition adjust Lightspectrum adjust Water-amount adjust Temperature...

Well, it is not a well understood Science if or how enviromental Coloration is happening,
but im not shure if all MusicStudios and some Growers waiste theyr money and time? Possibly, but not shure.

 

[romanoweed]

besides,when stating that People reported stabilisation created more good phenos, opposed to few OUTSTANDING phenos, i was talking about stabilisation inbreeding, no outcrossing.

 

[romanoweed]

In the end i dont know who Influences/Guides/Colorizes who. Wich way around..

Me, Breeders and Music-Studios seem to spot Correlation between Enviroment and Endproduct, but we cant proove it, so we just guess or act in a certain way (neutralize envirometnt).

 

[ThaiBliss]

You've got to admit ThaiBliss you've got a very narrow taste in cannabis, one that's fairly eccentric.

I swear I thought I was just going on and on about how I miss the variety of highs. I think I was even waxing poetic about the indica high. Probably just in my mind, because waxing poetic is quite an exaggeration of my writing skills. And.. I am old.

On the other hand, I recognized right away that a good half of people did not like Thai Stick. It was too much for them. Too strong, too nervous, too trippy, and too long lasting. Same with other hallucinogens. It's not for everyone. It used to be a debate in literature whether Cannabis was a hallucinogen or a narcotic. You never hear that anymore, except from maybe me. Actually, I argue that it depends on the strain old school strain. LOL

And yes, I do have eccentric tastes in Cannabis, but it's far from narrow.

I always say what we smoked when we first started smoking and really enjoying cannabis is what we'll remember and love for the rest of our lives.

I think this has some truth to it. I see that people who grew up with indica crosses only measure Cannabis potency by how much of a body high it has.

Rather then an escape from reality you want a super duper strong dose of it!

This rings true, but not sure about the rest of that paragraph.

The reason I don't think it's potency you're missing, I'm sure you've tried the concentrates and ultra-strong strains. You can take a huge hit of pure THC and blow yourself to the moon, get as high as you've ever gotten from cannabis.

Not sure I agree at all. I think indica is better when made into hash. I think good sativa makes better hash than indica, but sativa is better in bud form. To me, hash is a bit of a dumbing down of the sativa high. Your ice cream tester metaphor might be at play here.

I don't want to delve into nebulous concepts like 'energy' and 'lay lines' but the time and place and by who stuff is grown has an effect...

...I hope you can make it to Hawaii. Or somewhere else tropical you can grow the plants you love. You're in a California hashplant environment growing tropical varieties. You'll find your success in a tropical area in less then 5 years, I'm sure.

O.K. now this is what is making me reply, because it seems strange that you are contradicting me by making my point.

California is a hashplant environment?! Here we go with that stuff...

I lived for in California for about 4 years. When I was about to move there, I was terrified that I wouldn't find good pot anymore.

I'm laughing because California was like the mecca of Cannabis in America. Not only were there great imports, it has a great climate for growing homegrown, as we referred to it back in the day. Remember saying how I wrote that Thai Stick was exactly the same for me for 10 years. I quickly found two new kinds of Thai Stick in California. First there were Buddha Sticks. These, in my opinion, were not as strong, but one could make an argument that they were more refined. Less screaming potency, but less screaming. LOL. Not so nervous and paranoia inducing. Somewhat of a cross between Thai Stick and Cambodian Red, which was some of the trippy, all of the euphoria, and not a bit of nervousness. By the way, Cambodian was something I never had before moving to Cali. I also smoked some completely gold colored skinny Thai Sticks there. Every bit as golden color as Colombian Gold, every bit as strong and a very similar high as my good old brown and green Thai Sticks from my old connection. Anyway, I digress.

Because I was so afraid of not finding good weed, I bought a fairly large quantity of Colombian Red just before moving to Cali. It was the best I could find at the time. Not my favorite Colombian, but at least it was very strong. Sheeeiit. I wound up selling that bull crap.


So more to the point, excellent homegrown weed was being grown there. There was the indica crap, but also as good sativa as grown anywhere else in the world. I should have known this as so much weed was being grown in Cali that we had gotten some back in the Midwest where I came from. It wasn't the best, but it was quality smoke. Not as strong as Colombian Red, but had a better high. Gee go figure, I found better Cali weed living in Cali than I had being in the Midwest. LOL

It was frigging EVERYWHERE!!!! My neighbors had 12 foot tall ganja plants harvested in late November that was almost as good as Thai Stick. LMFAO! There were stories of people getting busted with plants that were growing for two years. Yes, that's right. In the Central Valley, you can grow beautiful graceful sativa plants outdoors that don't die off in the winter.

Unfortunately, this was the exact time when indica was becoming widespread. I was there just in time to witness yet another growing area being destroyed by the commercialization of Cannabis. It was the early days of the indica-ization of California Cannabis.

To back up this evidence that contradicts your theory of California being a "hashplant environment", wasn't there a famous strain of sativa Cannabis that was bred in Cali. Hmm... what was that name again? Oh yeah, HAZE!!! I have proclaimed many times that Neville's Haze, the acid pheno, was the only thing I ever smoked that was better than Thai Stick. Oh yeah, and I grew it myself in my indoor grow cabinet in Oregon. Bada Boom! So much for your theory of "nebulous concepts like 'energy' and 'lay lines' but the time and place and by who stuff is grown has an effect." On the other hand, there is at least of kernel of truth to anyone's theory about almost anything, and I agree that these factors do have some effect.

ThaiBliss

 

[Donald Mallard]

But all that work was done by the people who gave or sold or whatever the strains to Ace or Charlie. They are the people who I look up to, who should have our admiration. They collected, preserved and selected the strains for 10-20-40 years before Charlie and Ace got ahold of the strains and cross bred them with each other. You're giving credit to people who didn't do the things you're saying.


Of course but Burbank also talks about hybrid vigor. His Russet Potato, berry varieties, roses, etc. were all hybrids. The difference here we both know is that the hybridization is the BEGINNING of the work not the end result. Burbank would make a hybrid, plant out thousands of seedlings, select the best dozen. Then plant out thousands more and cull most of them. Over 10, 20 generations you have your select inbred line. This is what true plant breeding is.

The reason why we aren't doing this, the breeders selling seeds aren't doing this, we can't grow the numbers because of the laws. Sadly the ones who will do it are the big corporations that can afford the patents, the certificates, and all the other bullshit..



. If you're curious about how all this works talk to Mustafunk, I'm sure he'd enjoy it..

i think thats often the case with cannabis man ,
plenty of work was done before a breeder gets it , no matter the source ,
acquiring it from the place of origin and working from there i guess gets more respect than just buying a 10 pack of seeds , or grabbing the latest hyped cut around and reversing it ,


its true many begin with something already worked because landraces are already domesticated when we get them ,
the next choice is starting with some hempy wild thing that no man had laid a hand on and working from there ,
which isnt really something anyone does for a good reason , its just going to take too long to get anything worthwhile ...



but they are still a far cry from something like fruity pebbles , og , ecsd etc ,
anyhow you seem to know more about the origins of the stuff you mentioned than i do , so there is no point me harping on ,


i will agree that most breeders obtain their stock from folks that have already had some selection done , post landrace .. not all , but those guys are pretty rare as we have all agreed ...



'i would add though , as far as what you say about hybridization being just the beginning ,

i think if you have selected and worked on 2 seperate landrace varieties over several generations , enough to lock in the desired traits ,
and make a hybrid of them for farmers to grow and take advantage of the hybrid vigor , that is your work completed ,
inbred lines are not for farmers , they are more for breeders ,
a farmer wants/needs a plant with extreme vigor , some uniformity , ie most plants flower around the same time frame , and produce a similar if not the same product over a range of plants , while at the same time resisting problems like disease , pest problems , etc ,
that is what hybrids are made for,
any corn farmer will tell you that , he wouldnt grow a landrace or an inbred line , he wants that hybrid you made ...

anyhow im raving plainly, im not even stoned , so no excuses , lol ..

 

[ThaiBliss]

Romano - You are making this too complicated and too magical.

I have an example. I live in an area where there are many particle counting businesses. They use these in pharmaceutical clean rooms and microchip manufacturing. It's not the environment of the area, the weather, or the magical energy. It's the knowledge. One local guy had the knowledge and started a business. People working for him saw him getting rich doing it. They left the original company and started their own company. Next thing you know, there are a dozen particle counting manufacturers in the area, and most importantly, the local workforce has acquired the skills for it.

Likewise, indigenous people have a culture of growing and using Cannabis. They have bred it well, especially for the environment they are in. Cannabis from the region gets popularized because of travelling hippies who like weed. Next thing you know, some of the locals get rich. People with less skill think that growing there is the key. People move there bringing some of their own genetics. The original high quality weed is displaced, and it all goes to shit.

I'm old enough to see this happen in Mexico, then Jamaica, then Colombia, then California. I lament it so much because I've seen it happen so much. Not because I only like a certain narrow type that is no longer available. More that all types across the globe are being displaced by people who are relatively new to growing and breeding, and don't have the skills for it, and in fact, look down on the culture that created the strains. Even to the point of minimizing the influence that the people who grew the weed had by using terms like "landrace". People used to pass the genetics and skills down from grandparent, to parent, to child. Now... everyone thinks that they are an expert because they read a book.

The whole point of being on this website is to find remnants of the old school strains that I would think inevitably, hopefully, still exist of the great strains in pure or near pure form. Quite frankly, every commercial "breeder" I ever heard of is hoping to acquire the same because at least they know that there are pockets of "gold" that can still be mined for their commercial benefit. Even they know it's easier to piggyback on someone else's work than do it themselves, because that would take more than a few generations of Cannabis, it would take generations of dedicated PEOPLE working tirelessly on the same line. Just like the old school strains.

T.B.

 

[romanoweed]

I have proclaimed many times that Neville's Haze, the acid pheno, was the only thing I ever smoked that was better than Thai Stick. I grew it myself in my indoor grow cabinet in Oregon. So much for your theory of "nebulous concepts like 'energy' and 'lay lines' but the time and place and by who stuff is grown has an effect."

ThaiBliss

Well, you have then only smoked it! You havent breed it in that enviroment, and i never said, you possibly CAN neutralize enviroment..

I did not say that Thai-Landscape cant be recreated..

But again, would you selected it a while, from all i heard, the outstanding Phenos, just grown in your average Cabinet will probably nomore emerge. Out the enviromental, as out the Bottlenecking and Size-Reason.

And probably the Comparison is anyway obsolete, as Nevilles Haze probably contains a trippyer Genetic than Thai.

Probably vietnamese? Not claiming iet is stronger , but just my thought. Also you compared illegal smuggeled Thai, probably at some Stage poorly handled, pressed together slightly, sitting in hot wet ships...

 

[Mimpi Manis]

Jeez... that was a good read Mr Bliss! The breadth of the strains I got to taste over the years is somewhat modest compared to yours. But damn... agree with everything re the Thai Stick. Absolute benchmark. Years ago (many!) I saw plants grown from Thai seed growing - waving in the breeze - to 14 plus feet. 2-4 lb was not uncommon (so I heard). Harvested near peak winter here. (SW Gondwana). Caravans, shed's and available space filled with fans and heaters trying to get the bud dry before it moulded. Ah... that's the farming life for you.

 

[romanoweed]

I dont know, but would guess there were very few sucessful Bacteria-studies without desinfected Enviroment. Its not my Field of knowledge.. Audio is rather my field of knowledge so... Also i google a lot about Landracecreation... Thats where i get my impression.


Like i said, i dont claim what does the thing (enviroment vs. People), nor do i claim that it is only the enviroment. I state the found correlation between Enviroment, and the steering/guiding of Breedingdecisions. Infact people ARE THEORETICALLY able to mix music in unthreated Enviroments, they could theoretically make the same adjustments to the sound , but practically it probably will never happen. The enviroment changes the whole perception what is good or bad, and you make decisions wich are shifted to a certain direction.

Sorry to make this Example of Audio-mixing, i cant show you any well reported case for Cannabis, cause wich grower want to risk centuries of work by posting illegal practises, just to inform people.
I atleast found someone telling about. And the similarity might be high..

i also did not claim it was magical, or such, i said it is physical Nature , Soilcomposition, Lightspectrum... wich steers, or any kind of correlates to what Thaistick actually is

also, by explaining how thaistick became extinct you are not really prooving how it was made.
also the Therm " Landrace" does not have any Quality like "good" or "bad" to it, it is a Therm for Breedingstyle happening in old Days

 

[romanoweed]

One more thing: You said Nevilles Hz grown indoor was better tha old Thai.

I explain further: my Point was not that a certain Regions Enviroment is better than other. My Point is that its different. And it could guide your Breeding Decisions differnetly. Therefore your say Thai would become just Different once breed indoors.

Now, you could think: but it was just better indoors, therefore bypassed the enviromental-differenc-problematique.
Well, that is proably a reasonable hyphothesis, and i cant deunk it, i simply not know.

Till you dont know the Anwser and give me proove that the nevilles hz selected under this conditions did stay same good, its a hyphothesis.
And you have to see all i say individually.
Seing it individually we see, that enviroment seemingly correlates to change in genotype.
And it could also be that:
othe nevilles hz just has better genetic than what you compared it to,
thai was not transported propperly to USA,
you actually did not really debunk a genetical shift trough enviromental pressure, just rather encountered a expression of your Growroom.

Possibly man could like create an artificial Enviroment (like you possibly did) that even guides the Breedingdecision thowards the better Weed, the ultimate Weed. As long as you dont demonstrate it, and the best demonstration would be to compare it to what i smoked Vietnamese haha, and to breed it past couple generation, so long you possibly jsust created the ultimate Enviroment for a FARMER/the Endgrower , and you did not clearly debunk anything. Just raised a new topic: is there even a better Growenviroment than that of ultimate Tripweed`s Origin .. Probably it is, but when you once read that lifechanging Tripreports from SE Asian Strains smoked at Origin, then its not necessarly interesting. Cause what do you want more, than touching the edge of imagination. like described in the Papers here or elsewhere: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=47592

And so long it is not a save anwser regarding the preservation of canna-strains.
It dosent anwser if this tactic will in the end prevent 100 Percent perfect preservation.
And probably your thai will become kind of Southamerican, grown in Southamerica...

And its cool to question what i say, im always open, but it dosent really put what i said in question.

 

[romanoweed]

besides: you probably understood under "neutralizing enviroment" the usage of Weed-control-substances..

I meant adjusting parameters, soilcomposition, wateramount..... like neutralising the enviromental Influence thowards a neutral influence

 

[Thesearch]

Besides bottlenecking of genetics, I don't see how environment is playing too much of a factor in breeding from it's native land to an indoor environment that is controlled. Are you proposing that the environment changes the plants' RNA which is then being passed down to subsequent generations? Perhaps an overfeeding could cause suppression of genes? For the most part evolution is forced by natural selection, but if you control your indoor environment and prevent any plants from dying, I can only see RNA changes happening or maybe some sort of stifled expressions from the wrong nutrients? I just don't see as much how this affects breeding. Any ideas towards this? UV levels can most definitely change individual expression, I have heard that plants in low uv environments experience genetic drift and eventually naturalize into hemp. This can be mimicked indoors, but the only selection from it, that I understand, is from elevated uv levels killing off less protected (less trichomes/thca) plants. hence highland vs lowland varieties. This is important in large breeding projects where individual plants cant be tested but in smaller projects, the same thing can be selected for by smoking the different plants and deciding some are too weak in potency to breed with.

 

[romanoweed]

the moment you are doing the Selection in a given Enviroment you are making a decision. The decision between keeper and not keeper.
If the Soilcomposition , moiturecontent or whatever enviromental factor lets a given Pheno express nicely, you then will choose this Pheno cause it looks nice, feels , effects nice.

So, the Enviroment has guided/steered what you selected for.
I already mentioned Enviroment does not really change the Dna (or atleast put this beside), but it guides your decision.

these Enviromet Factors vary, differnt in Thaiand, then in Afghanistan, than Indors, than in...

IMHO