The Organic Think Tank

[NiteTiger]

They sell that stuff "nitrohumus". I've used it about 28 (1982 I think) years ago in a 3' deep x 10" wide trench at about 10 tons/acre on 160 new Flame Seedless planting. Covered the trench and planted young vines over the nitrohumus. It's treated and composted human shit from the sewer plants.

I would never use it again. Although high in nitrogen, it's salt content and high metal levels make today's compost look like gold.

Didn't know any better back then. Vineyard still is producing though.

That is completely different than composted humanure. It's made into toxic sludge at the waste treatment plant. Once it enters water, it becomes pollution.

So, yeah, that would be horrible stuff, full of all the chems and byproducts used to 'clean' it.

Like comparing Miracle Grow to Foxfarms.

 

[xmobotx]

as a Mother Earth News reader from back when they were what made them what they were (whatever that means) i am familiar w/ the concept of composting and using one's humanure

while i don't practice this (not saying i wouldn't) i do believe it is a viable resource w/ certain advantages (certainly speaks to sustainability)

the problem w/ discussing humanure in a public forum seems clear though. too many trolls and ballswingers would likely find hilarity in the concept and heckle/detract - add to that the public health concerns and probably studies painting some extreme method in a bad light and you find flag wavers getting feeble flag waving hands

probably a lot of folks who just practice the method quietly

from what i understand, the plan is to fully compost (as in a composting toilet) then re-compost in a thermophilic pile before application to food crops

alternately, apply to ornamental crops which could then be used as feedstocks in the outdoor compost pile

want the modern day commercial product of fields fertilized w/ humanure? smoke a cuban cigar

 

[Rustylions]

Just a short thought that popped into my head after quickly reading this last page.

Using humanure to grow cover crops (comfrey, alfalfa, dandelion) etc and using the composted cover crops for compost teas or whatever method of fertilising takes your fancy. Surely that would eliminate all pathogen risks.

Again, just an idea. Could be completely unfeasible.

RL

 

[Lazyman]

But the cover crops would be tilled backinto the same soil, wasting it's uptake of any toxins.

 

[NiteTiger]

There's no need to double compost. If you read the link, you'll see that an active thermophilic compost pile will eliminate all pathogens. The author has been using it on his food crops for, at the time of writing, 25 years.

Interestingly enough, a proper thermophilic compost pile is harder to achieve without humanure. The nitrogen content and additional thermophilic microbes really get that pile HOT! We're talking temps in excess of 150F for a week. BURN PATHOGENS, BURRRRRRRRRRN!

The additional nitrogen and microbes also break down so called "un-compostables" like oils and fats. So an active humanure compost pile will be able to take ALL house waste, no separating needed.

In terms of sustainability, holy shit, it doesn't get any better! Something many people who want to live off the grid (or after the zombie apocalypse) forget about is human waste. What happens when the water stops flowing?

You can go contaminate the areas around your house, or continue to use water if you have a well or something. But you're now poisoning your immediate environment, or your water table. Septic tanks do fill, eventually

Composting it however, solves that problem, and turns it into a resource instead of a contaminant. You can now keep the land rich enough to grow food crops without needing to clear more area to rotate fields. Your not poisoning your environment, which is a huge plus Plus, you're able to dispose of more waste that would otherwise be problematic.

I've already told my wife that the house we build will be dry toilets. No need to wait for the zombies, y'know?

Really ought to give that book a read, even just for the wealth of general composting information, if not specifically about humanure. That link is the full book, published online.

 

[mullray]

Yep - extreme example on both sides. The answer is somewhere i the middle me thinks.

I agree ---- it's called bioagriculture. Amazes me how sensationalist and reductive the organic argument is. Love the fear mongering dribble that is used to support it. For the most part it's also a deck of cards that is easily pulled down. OK so I'm looking forward to seeing the grow results from teas.

 

[cannaboy]

The ways the Nephilim tought us to root cuttings and harvest seem the way to do it for me It was first out of all other ways and Is the reason we are alive today,, If you grow indoors do the math or you yourself are to blame for poor results ie not 2g per watt and its not the plant food either, Bad growers, also people knocking stuff they havent got the time to tryout cos their busy doin ph checks,, shouldn't get a chance to teach the children IMHO..

My mix is 33.3/33.3/33.3 Canna profesional pluss, Biobizz Allmix.. My compost and a Ltr wormcast and come cuban guano...... Using rainwater no ph issues,, Will make a tea of the Cuban guano, wormcasts, pure sugar, & SUPER VIT!!!!! This will brew for a 2 weeks and feed on week 4 12/12 this the only feed then water all the way through,, On the 4 pot wilma system,,,In 1 big pot,,

I also put some stones in the base of the pots for luck and use the
Kiss method..

 

[cannaboy]

But the cover crops would be tilled backinto the same soil, wasting it's uptake of any toxins.

Can somebody say wether or not the toxins are flushed away as are the chemicles in bottle dope feed, thus not tilling them back into the earth, or is it done by a different means??

Just curious ...

 

[xmobotx]

~alternately, apply to ornamental crops which could then be used as feedstocks in the outdoor compost pile

But the cover crops would be tilled backinto the same soil, wasting it's uptake of any toxins.

^^^here's my solution (albeit overly complex *thx nitetiger) i have had intentions of designing/building a composting bathroom but we recently (no grass yet) had a septic system designed and installed here

cannaboy, when you say "taught by the nephilim," can you clarify the method? (i already know and understand the nephilim but never considered they had positive input)

 

[cannaboy]

3 Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, ... And God was especially angry to Azazel, one of "Nephilim


I can't be too spercific..

 

[xmobotx]

o, i see

 

[NiteTiger]

3 Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, ... And God was especially angry to Azazel, one of "Nephilim


I can't be too spercific..

Why not?

 

[MrFista]

I'm glad the topic has changed I wasn't going to post in this thread as the original topic was just bait. People should not have to "prove you wrong", if you want to start a thread called organics sucks, it is your responsibility to back it up and "prove you right".

The Haber Process, a nitrogen fixing reaction for making chemical ammonia ferts, was touted as a huge boon to mankind. Coupled with the industrial revolution and the rapid evolution of labour saving machinery we grew enough food to feed the world; huge profits were realised by many players, and everything was golden.

But something else had happened, in that first year the salt ferts went on, a small portion of the microbial players present in that land began to dissapear. The effects were almost immediate. Within a year or two more fertiliser was required, and the increased salt took out more of the microherd. Soon there were pests and diseases on the plants, and so poisons were made to combat these, all at a cost and farmers began to lose money. Small farmers were bought out and corporates moved in. The chemical companies made herbicides, fungicides, and pesticides galore. Horror stries, deformed babies, dead animals, sterility. New products were made, the profits continued.

The world the Haber Process promised to feed still starved. Over time the nations that got fed developed burgeoning occurences of type II diabetes, heart disease, cancer and obesity. But still we buy the lie.

Down in the wee stream behind my childhood house I search for the kokopu that shelter in the overhangs but they are not there. Phosphate and nitrogen salts leached from the farmed land have caused eutrophication and algal and plankton blooms strip the oxygen from the water. Fungi in the land that once moderated floodwaters are missing. The farmers are making money hand over fist now - "best in the world" they call themselves. The entire country's 50 000 dairy farms now under the umbrella of one corporate entity. Melamine baby scandal - dead babies! Responsibility is diverted and the game continues.

Why would any educated person buy ferts and support the corporate mindset that destroys our long term natural resources for short term profit in the pockets of a few. And yes, many of those slippery sob's have now jumped on the organic bandwagon, a market is a market.

If you flush you are causing further problems in your environment. Part of the problem or part of the solution. it's a choice. Unfortunately most do not make an educated choice, and cannot be told they are ignorant.

 

[grapeman]

But something else had happened, in that first year the salt ferts went on, a small portion of the microbial players present in that land began to dissapear. The effects were almost immediate. Within a year or two more fertiliser was required, and the increased salt took out more of the microherd. Soon there were pests and diseases on the plants, and so poisons were made to combat these, all at a cost and farmers began to lose money.

The world the Haber Process promised to feed still starved. Over time the nations that got fed developed burgeoning occurences of type II diabetes, heart disease, cancer and obesity. But still we buy the lie.

Unfortunately most do not make an educated choice, and cannot be told they are ignorant.

What a uneducated post. You throw in something you read about... the 'haber Process' to make yourself look educated. You've failed. You assume that pests and diseases were the result of fertilizer use. Mankind has experienced cycles of feast or famine due to disease or pests on crops since the dawn of time. Try reading history.

Current starvation has more to do with geo-politics then with mankind not being able to produce enough food for it's population or the health of soil microbes.

Given your reasoning, the staving tribes in Africa should be able to feed themselves since they are sitting on vasts tracts of land that has never been "raped" by the modern farmer. But they can't.

It's always easy to pontificate bullshit when you have a full stomach due to the advances in farming and your local Kroger's.

This moronic self serving post is not unlike al gore telling me I need to conserve energy and pay a carbon tax because I'm bad for the earth due to the fact that I have 13 tons of a/c in my house while he lives in a mansion that uses 10 times the power I do.

Stop eating. Grow your own. All of it. For your family also. Then come back and post. You won't be so full of shit then. Show me how you can feed yourself instead of reading an article on 'Treehugger' and portraying yourself as knowledgeable about my business. Worse still might be that you are a teacher who passes your BS off to kids who don't know better. Certainly sounds like a comment a educator would make. You know, like passing judgement on an industry that keeps you alive and that you know nothing about.

Pfft.

 

[mullray]

Sounds like a sermon to me. Go do some reading you idiot (or better yet pay attention at school) and stop giving organic enthusiasts a bad name.

 

[MrFista]

You know nothing about me grapeman, and I owe you no proof of education. Also, why has the conversation got personal all of a sudden.

Those vast tracts of land you speak of, like you know what's going on in africa? Shell making a bigger mess than BP for years and years but no one gives a shit. Geopolitical bah, old school cash political.

I don't subscribe to tree hugger, I am a tree hugger. I've spent many working years on market gardens, orchards, studying with ag scientists, dairy, forestry...

Go fert your sour grapes.

 

[enter sandman]

watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit episode on organics...free on utube

 

[NiteTiger]

I'm glad the topic has changed I wasn't going to post in this thread as the original topic was just bait. People should not have to "prove you wrong", if you want to start a thread called organics sucks, it is your responsibility to back it up and "prove you right".

Had you read past the first post when it still actually had that title, you'd have seen there was a specific reason I did it that way.

Oh, and you may have noticed, it worked.

 

[xmobotx]

everything mrfista wrote is spot on

maybe if you're in the business of utilizing said chemical agents it becomes personal?

the need for increased rates of application, the diminishing micro-herd, the rising need for herbicides/pesticides, all attribute to isolating ionic ferts and failing to provide "the rest" which is living soil (IOW organic) then add excess runoffs and new increasing health issues and you have the demonizing of "conventional farming"

does this mean that every conventional farmer utilizes the extreme methods and contributes at the excessive levels of the worst case scenarios? of course not.

but to deny categorically that all conventional farming is a non-contributor to these issues is the same as to blame all the issues on conventional farming (key word being all)

there is such thing as responsible agriculture

interesting point that all these starving people that were supposedly going to be fed w/ these new technologies never actually got fed

of course due to politics and not the methods - but it definitely undermines the argument that norm borlaugh's ideals represent some "be all end all" of the "argument"

anyway, who gives a fuck about the "starving tribes of africa" (in this discussion anyway - the human tragedy of the situation is what it is) their continued starvation is due to political reasons and has zero to do w/ agricultural method

 

[EatMoGrass]

grapeman, I see you posting in the organic soil quite often and I have read that you brew compost teas so I'm assuming that you have experience with both chemical and organic farming.

Since you likely have experience with both I am wondering if you have noticed that the organically plants are any healthier or any more disease resistant than the chem grown plants?

I myself have absolutely no experience with chem grown plants as I grow everything in living organic soil so I cannot make a comparison.

All I know is that I never use any pesticides(including neem) outdoor or indoor and have never had more than a fungus gnat problem. And that was in a garden that had already had problems do to a toxic tent.

In my limited experience I have noticed that pests seem to stay away from healthy, happy plants that are thriving in my living organic soil. And I have never sprayed neem ever in over five years.

Last year a hail storm beat the crap out of most of my pepper plants and a couple of those beat up plants later developed a aphid infestation within a few weeks.

So I never ever use any form of pesticide(including neem oil) and the only times I have ever had pest problems were when my plants were stressed from a toxic tent or a hail storm.

I'm not trying to compare my situation to yours as it sounds like you are an actual farmer, but rather I would like to here your input as you likely have experience with both organic and chem grows/farming.