The Organic Think Tank

[xmobotx]

what im hoping to do here is cultivate and keep a balanced stable population that is always active

while idk, i m inclined to think that the living creature is what maintains the balance in an aquarium - hearkens to using manure on the field

interestingly, were i to venture into hydro, it would be making a miniature model of a mountain/valley w/ river/lake utilizing a layer for filter purposes

and, there would probably be koi or some such in the "lake"

which makes it aquaponics

i believe that aquaponics represents a strong argument for "organic hydro"

so, how far are we pushing the line calling an aquaponic setup "organic hydro?"

 

[grapeman]

well hopefully

But I don't see it as extra effort regardless

Bottom line is that many people have problems brewing teas and thus they depart from organics

so any efforts I make that can help ease the difficulty, especially through trial and error has a benefit imo

I also used the information they posted in prior threads as nucleus for this concept

EM manufactures seem to do much the same, make a batch of beneficials and keep them alive

the cost f the mortar tub the filter and teh parts is all under 40$ which is cheaper than an microbe brewing set

and it also bio wheel and filter components

teh particles in most organic hydro make it ineffective for many hydroponics and other systems

the filter, both physical and biological should reduce the particle composition

I had a feeling people would have a hard time seeing past what they would interpret as a recreation of the wheel

but as I said that once I feel the design achieves an end that I will do trials to show its effectiveness

this will also be done side by side with plain salts, store bought microbes and ones made on my own

the main objective here is to combat the biggest complaints about organics: Cost complexity and lack of efficiency

this project is meant to show all to be incorrect without the need to overwhelm ones self with research when anecdotal trial and error should as I suggested quantify and qualify at a cost of both time effort and results, and the real differential in applied organics

Although the pictures are clear, it would be helpful to those of us (me anyway) that would want to play in your sandbox and try to replicate your design if you would be kind enough to include a schematic pencil drawing of your design and the water/air flow. I have zero experience with anything aquarium.

Please.

 

[RNDZL]

my pleasure

its really old stuff that i had an epiphany of using to make a simply tea brewer this weekend and the wheels started turning

let me take more shot, get some pics and stuff and see what I can do to mak eit a bit clearer

 

[SupraSPL]

it would be easy to tangentialize the conversation into GMO or even genes in general

I see GMO as an extension of the pesticide and chem fert issue. Certainly Monsanto is heavily invested into both. It boils down to the way that man asserts control of natural systems. We can either work with nature (IPM) or we can forcefully take control and proclaim that we know best chem ferts/pesticides/herbicides/GMO.

Granted, we are cultivating drug cultivars normally on a small scale and they are probably quite unfit for natural conditions, but I believe since they were bred using selection systems the work we have done could be reversed and the Cannabis gene pool and associated ecosystems would be no worse off in the long run.

The large scale use of GMO for food crops with bacterial derived pesticides (BT corn) concerns me much more for its potenially permanent contributions to the gene pool. Is Monsanto the best the human race can offer in terms of wisdom, genius and foresight, something we wish to make a permanent mark on Earth? I sure hope not lol.

Sorry to pick on Monsanto but they are in the spotlight making squillions so it is fair enough.

 

[mullray]

Although the pictures are clear, it would be helpful to those of us (me anyway) that would want to play in your sandbox and try to replicate your design if you would be kind enough to include a schematic pencil drawing of your design and the water/air flow. I have zero experience with anything aquarium.

Please.

The chemistry - trialled and tested.

A good nutrient broth contains Peptone, Meat extract, Yeast extract and sodium chloride. Basic nutrients for fungi have potatoe starch and dextrose.

All of these ingredients can be purchased from companies like sigma aldricht and oxoide and I think difco is another one. But you won't necessarily need ingredients that are manufactured for microbiological use. Things like yeast extract are easy to get hold of. Dextrose you can buy from home brewing shops. Kelp is a goodie as it covers more trace elements than any other products. Molasses is high on TDN and is a must.

Bacteria and fungi are aerobic so oxygen is important.

Don't use carbon filtration (as someone seems to be suggesting) ---- carbon will filter out various organic particles (hence the tea going clear! Many microbes fix elements but this can take an extended period so pre preparation of soils is advised (I.e. add microbes a month prior to growing and allow the microbes to do their thing). Add food ---- organic carbons, starch and sugars during the prep period.

OK, so does anyone actually have lab tests here? Like even the most basic stuff ---- NPK ratios etc (not to even mention the all important biomass counts)? Just wondering ---- seems like a lot of hypothesis and conjecture otherwise???? Glad to see the quasi religous crusades are over. Shame some seem to bagging on things they clearly know nothing about.

 

[RNDZL]

The chemistry - trialled and tested.

A good nutrient broth contains Peptone, Meat extract, Yeast extract and sodium chloride. Basic nutrients for fungi have potatoe starch and dextrose.

All of these ingredients can be purchased from companies like sigma aldricht and oxoide and I think difco is another one. But you won't necessarily need ingredients that are manufactured for microbiological use. Things like yeast extract are easy to get hold of. Dextrose you can buy from home brewing shops. Kelp is a goodie as it covers more trace elements than any other products. Molasses is high on TDN and is a must.

Bacteria and fungi are aerobic so oxygen is important.

Don't use carbon filtration (as someone seems to be suggesting) ---- carbon will filter out various organic particles (hence the tea going clear! Many microbes fix elements but this can take an extended period so pre preparation of soils is advised (I.e. add microbes a month prior to growing and allow the microbes to do their thing). Add food ---- organic carbons, starch and sugars during the prep period.

OK, so does anyone actually have lab tests here? Like even the most basic stuff ---- NPK ratios etc (not to even mention the all important biomass counts)? Just wondering ---- seems like a lot of hypothesis and conjecture otherwise???? Glad to see the quasi religous crusades are over. Shame some seem to bagging on things they clearly know nothing about.

ty for your input

I did not create this design to "hold over" microbes but ther idea occured as I built it

and all of my bakc end research says YES this is possible

NOW .. before we let LAB TESTS be the barometer of success I have some ideas for trials and some other ways I can see how effective the microbial activity is

most home hobby aquariums are set up, cycled and run. A small percentage test the water.

BUT many are successful. The hallmark of success for them is water clarity, fish health and like variables.

My real aim here and understand is that we dont need to see it to know its there


The BIO-CAT product is very interesting cause its dry microbial so I have some bacterial products I can also use to isolate bacteria manufacturing from tea manufacture

there is even growing evidence of bacterial and salt interactions and that there is hybrid applications of synth.organic in hydro that does benefit from microbes

MY FEELING is and I think some share it liek Gr3atfulH3ad is that if the difference is not big enough to be readily apparent it may not be worth the effort

I don't want to change things unless they have a real noticeable benefit


and really this project is much more about how to create and run safe trials without jeopardizing your current med garden in the process of trial or application

learning new things and trying new things would be exciting and offer at a minimum huge experiential benefits and it should not come at the expense of your garden

and really my endeavor when its done is to give a novice an blueprint to success where all these technologies can be appropriate choices relative to the growers scenerio

 

[mullray]

ty for your input

I did not create this design to "hold over" microbes but ther idea occured as I built it

and all of my bakc end research says YES this is possible

NOW .. before we let LAB TESTS be the barometer of success I have some ideas for trials and some other ways I can see how effective the microbial activity is

most home hobby aquariums are set up, cycled and run. A small percentage test the water.

BUT many are successful. The hallmark of success for them is water clarity, fish health and like variables.

My real aim here and understand is that we dont need to see it to know its there


The BIO-CAT product is very interesting cause its dry microbial so I have some bacterial products I can also use to isolate bacteria manufacturing from tea manufacture

there is even growing evidence of bacterial and salt interactions and that there is hybrid applications of synth.organic in hydro that does benefit from microbes

MY FEELING is and I think some share it liek Gr3atfulH3ad is that if the difference is not big enough to be readily apparent it may not be worth the effort

I don't want to change things unless they have a real noticeable benefit


and really this project is much more about how to create and run safe trials without jeopardizing your current med garden in the process of trial or application

learning new things and trying new things would be exciting and offer at a minimum huge experiential benefits and it should not come at the expense of your garden

and really my endeavor when its done is to give a novice an blueprint to success where all these technologies can be appropriate choices relative to the growers scenerio

Yep lab tests have proven a million times that biomass builds in inorganic hydro systems. That one was settled a long time ago (only some people on this forum seem to have not read the research x 1000 ++++.... i.e. lab tests for biomass count and types). Bit like religion ----- blind faith and wishful thinking I guess. Looking forward to seeing the results. Go well

 

[xmobotx]

Yep lab tests have proven a million times that biomass builds in inorganic hydro systems. That one was settled a long time ago (only some people on this forum seem to have not read the research x 1000 ++++.... i.e. lab tests for biomass count and types). Bit like religion ----- blind faith and wishful thinking I guess. Looking forward to seeing the results. Go well

actually, what this says to me is that; while the chem hydro proponents argue about the inefficacy of organics, their gardens are actually utilizing said concept

 

[organiclover]

"Salt-based ferts and GMO seeds are necessary to feed the earth's burgeoning population. The earth only has enough arable land to feed 4 billion people if every farm were organic. Since we're already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people should starve to death?
Organics are not the future of farming, they are a gladly forgotten past. Anything mother nature can do I can do better!"

hey lazyman - much respect to you and your grows but i strongly disagree with this statement - sorry for the delayed response but i am just catching up on this thread
being a sustainable agriculture graduate i had to respond
chemical fertilizers destroy the soil year after year - crop yields go down significantly over time and more ferts have to be added to reach desired results - more profits for agribusiness - these soluble nutes runoff and contaminate water supplies
sustainable farms can be way more productive then chemical farms
it is amazing how much food can be produced on just a couple acres of a healthy organic sustainable farm
part of the problem is the meat and dairy industries - because of the demand so much land is used to crow corn and soy etc - if a fraction of that was used to grow vegetables way less people would be starving

do we want people in africa to depend on chemical ferts purchased from agribusiness or teach them how to compost, rotate crops, build healthy soils, produce their own seeds, and build productive farms ??
i would rather do the later
peace

 

[Lazyman]

Hey organiclover, I figured you'd be along shortly. No disrespect taken, and I welcome your input. However, how do you argue with the numerous studies and citations I posted that show dramatically improved yields with hydro/salts over organic farming methods? Most crops that can be grow indoors perform several times better and in WAY less space than organics.

Everything I've read on farming in Africa and other poor areas points to a lack of arable land, plentiful water, and lack of nitrogen to fix the soil. You can't build good soil out of sand alone.

I agree the world must be sustainable, but since the amount of arable land continues to shrink, the population continues to grow, and pooor nations cannot afford to farm organically, don't we do what the science suggests to prevent starvation?

 

[SupraSPL]

Lazyman you bring up some good points. It really does all boil down to human population. Many industrialized countries now have stable or even shrinking populations but overall a rapid worldwide increase continues. You mentioned a possible 4 billion could be sustained naturally. I once heard the figure 2 billion. Either way our current population and standard of living is only sustained by cheap oil, which is of course dangerously limited in supply.

So we have built a house of cards and created an unnatural temporary unsustainable bloom of human population. I am not suggesting that we engage in genocide to solve the problem. But if we don't solve it nature will solve it for us one way or another.

So as the population continues to increase and pollution as well, we all suffer a decrease in our quality of life. Organic farming provides individuals with a method to get clean food (and meds) that will have sufficient nutrients and be as free as possible of dangerous pollution. These sustainable methods can be used in poor countries without their relying on "Pharmacon corporation" or some such for their seed, herbicide and fertilizer.

I will have to look into the references you posted comparing organic yields and chemical yields sounds interesting.

 

[grapeman]

"Salt-based ferts and GMO seeds are necessary to feed the earth's burgeoning population. The earth only has enough arable land to feed 4 billion people if every farm were organic. Since we're already at 6 billion, which 2 billion people should starve to death?
Organics are not the future of farming, they are a gladly forgotten past. Anything mother nature can do I can do better!"

hey lazyman - much respect to you and your grows but i strongly disagree with this statement - sorry for the delayed response but i am just catching up on this thread
being a sustainable agriculture graduate i had to respond
chemical fertilizers destroy the soil year after year - crop yields go down significantly over time and more ferts have to be added to reach desired results - more profits for agribusiness - these soluble nutes runoff and contaminate water supplies
sustainable farms can be way more productive then chemical farms
it is amazing how much food can be produced on just a couple acres of a healthy organic sustainable farm
part of the problem is the meat and dairy industries - because of the demand so much land is used to crow corn and soy etc - if a fraction of that was used to grow vegetables way less people would be starving

do we want people in africa to depend on chemical ferts purchased from agribusiness or teach them how to compost, rotate crops, build healthy soils, produce their own seeds, and build productive farms ??
i would rather do the later
peace

Not this dumbass argument again. Please.

With all due respect to your degree in sustainable agriculture, unless you are feeding the world with that method, please don't preach about it. I have a degree in business, and over 45 years in farming. My experience trumps your ag degree, IMO. Not all farming is as you portray it in your post by a long shot.

 

[xmobotx]

if i may;

how do you argue with the numerous studies and citations I posted that show dramatically improved yields with hydro/salts over organic farming methods? Most crops that can be grow indoors perform several times better and in WAY less space than organics.

probably like this

chemical fertilizers destroy the soil year after year - crop yields go down significantly over time and more ferts have to be added to reach desired results - more profits for agribusiness - these soluble nutes runoff and contaminate water supplies
sustainable farms can be way more productive then chemical farms
it is amazing how much food can be produced on just a couple acres of a healthy organic sustainable farm
part of the problem is the meat and dairy industries - because of the demand so much land is used to crow corn and soy etc - if a fraction of that was used to grow vegetables way less people would be starving

i dont know, it sounds familiar

 

[xmobotx]

IMO. Not all farming is as you portray it in your post by a long shot.

which is to say, farming and methods is as diverse as farmers

organic/mixed/chem/whatever

 

[RNDZL]

well its funny guys

here I am trying to make some little trials to see contribute to organic hydro and it seems that this path has been well paved for us

so before I go much further into my system, which at this time seems even more viable to achieve the ends I am seeking, I feel it is absolutely necessary to give big props and offer up the information I have found

Big Tokes bio buckets are hybrid organic hydro

here is a thread specifically on the bacterial benefits I hypothesis but he has realized

and yes it offers superior benefits to straight up hydro as I suspected,

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=115193&postcount=61

here is the thread in its entirety

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=8182


I am continuing with my tea and bacterial engine design and will continue to update but as I was doing back end research and I find people who paved the way I feel is real important to show proper thanks


and please lazyman, I understand your passion about synths, but if you want to argue crop efficiency organics vs salts can we do it in another thread?

I have counters for every post. Failure in africa does not negate success in asia or india. Organics is proving all those statistics and hypothesis you have listed as wrong or at the minimum very very subjective

but this has no benefit or add no value here it just gets us off topic

BUT is it a fair and possibly necessary debate?

yeah

does organics in hydro suck? look at the bio buckets and tell me ? another example of dudes rocking hydro organics half a decade ago getting results many straight up hydro dudes would kill for

i think its fair to assume so quicks interest was to get the bacteria web in his systems to avoid rot loss to the core of his leg sized buds cause IME thats what happens when you grow huge buds in straight up salts, any imperfection in environment causes a percentage of loss due to some sort of rot


Its very hard to bring positive energy to a think tank when some one is trying got prove before ti gets started its futile

i can prove otherwise in dollars and cents but is that gonna make my plants grow organically and hydroponicly

and that is what this particular thread is about

not hating not trying to start words but perhaps i see what mr wags was getting at with the subtle ive seen better remarks, cause in point was the same combative type of information presentation took away their momentum too

now thankfully (or not so much if i am annoying you ) I left babyln cause the lack of integrity and I left industries for the same

but not this time, not any more. i am in it for the good the bad and the fugly

id rather wrangle with rough neck heads than deal with polite nice normies

i understand everyone is disillusioned with the norm thus the deviation from it , but dont let it close your mind to hope, possibility and having expectations exceeded especially when you are dealing with cannabis, of any organism it is the living embodiment of those aspects

 

[RNDZL]

And I hate to be an I told you so, but I did say

All the answers we need lie in our collective experiences and I have said that several times

and thats one big reason I am passionate about give back and giving back for free

Where the fuck would I be, how empty would my life be, if it weren't for a bunch of nameless passionate heads who paved the road before me?

would I have had the chance to know marijuana and get the benefit from it that saved my life?

at this point of my life im grateful for relief and as much as I like to be liked I don't need to be the king of weed to feel like I can show my gratitude

this removal of ego from the picture, for me, is huge in how it changed my thought process

it also made it much easier for me to recognize when people have skill and knowledge that is valuable and I can tap into it cause it have no reason not to embrace it

its what makes me a dynamic thinker

 

[RNDZL]

and I would love for this point for some of the mods and older members lurking to please please hit us up with some threads or links to stuff you've seen that might help us might show us how its been done part or whole before

alot of old threads get lost in the board there are so many and maybe you guys recall some that might really bridge the gaps for us

 

[grapeman]

which is to say, farming and methods is as diverse as farmers

organic/mixed/chem/whatever

Yep - extreme example on both sides. The answer is somewhere i the middle me thinks.

 

[NiteTiger]

So, question for you organic guys. The whole chain of life, I get that. Harmony with nature, feed the soil and it will feed you, etc. I'm not making light, I really do get that position.

I've also stated I'm very impressed by how well you guys know and explain the ins and outs of organics right down to the very microbe.

So it surprises me that I never here discussion about the use of humanure in the compost. It is the final and direct return of nutrients back to the earth, completing the cycle. It is free, and plentiful D), and eliminates a huge pollution source. In addition, thermophilic organisms in humanure can even break down heavy metals and petrochem byproducts!

All in all, it seems like the Holy Grail of the 'Organic Lifestyle'. Complete circle of life, and healing the planet by not only reducing your pollution contribution, but actively destroying any other pollution that comes into your life.

Also, talk about sustainable! When the power goes out or the trucks stop running, and all the bird, bat, and cow poo stays where it is, you're still truckin' on!

So, why are we not hearing 'Organos' sounding the clarion call?

Is it because of a lack of awareness?

Or is it because, when it comes down to it, many Organos aren't really as dedicated as they say?

*Please click the following link for accurate information before responding: The Humanure Handbook*

Dry toilets for the Ultimate Organic win!

/poke /prod

 

[grapeman]

So, question for you organic guys. The whole chain of life, I get that. Harmony with nature, feed the soil and it will feed you, etc. I'm not making light, I really do get that position.

I've also stated I'm very impressed by how well you guys know and explain the ins and outs of organics right down to the very microbe.

So it surprises me that I never here discussion about the use of humanure in the compost. It is the final and direct return of nutrients back to the earth, completing the cycle. It is free, and plentiful D), and eliminates a huge pollution source. In addition, thermophilic organisms in humanure can even break down heavy metals and petrochem byproducts!

All in all, it seems like the Holy Grail of the 'Organic Lifestyle'. Complete circle of life, and healing the planet by not only reducing your pollution contribution, but actively destroying any other pollution that comes into your life.

Also, talk about sustainable! When the power goes out or the trucks stop running, and all the bird, bat, and cow poo stays where it is, you're still truckin' on!

So, why are we not hearing 'Organos' sounding the clarion call?

Is it because of a lack of awareness?

Or is it because, when it comes down to it, many Organos aren't really as dedicated as they say?

*Please click the following link for accurate information before responding: The Humanure Handbook*

Dry toilets for the ultimate organic win!

They sell that stuff "nitrohumus". I've used it about 28 (1982 I think) years ago in a 3' deep x 10" wide trench at about 10 tons/acre on a 160 acre new Flame Seedless planting. Covered the trench and planted young vines over the nitrohumus. It's treated and composted human shit from the sewer plants.

I would never use it again. Although high in nitrogen, it's salt content and high metal levels make today's compost look like gold.

Didn't know any better back then. Vineyard still is producing though.