The Organic Think Tank

[SupraSPL]

ever notice the organic guys tend to be more spiritual or earth-wise and the chem guys tend to be more science/atheist?

maybe i read too much in?

Thatsa good point and luckily I can deviate. I have always been an atheist and science geek but having studied ecology I am on the organic train all the way. I am baffled when I read things like bioengineering journals and I see essentially geniuses advocating the use of GMO in food crops large scale. I have to wonder if they have an understanding of traditional agriculture, sustainability or ecology, not to mention self reliance and economics.

I believe in small government and self regulation, but I consider the release of this pollen into our crops a potentially irreversible criminal act. Fair enough that we are testing this stuff on humans and not just animals but the sad thing is that most people are not aware they are eating it. I bet if there was a big GENETICALLY MODIFIED sticker on a box of Nut Flakes we'd be glad to pay 10 cents more for something organic.

One possible outcome is a scenario we will be growing poor quality, poisoned experimental GMO food with increasingly expensive petrochemcially derived fertilizer. We will have to buy new pesticides, herbicides, and newly bioengineered seed every season from a government linked monopoly thing like Monsanto. Anyone that tries to save seed or grow natural lines gets polluted by pollen from bioengineered plants and they can be sued.

That is the path we are headed in and many intelligent people call it progress, but it looks more like overhead lol.

 

[Lazyman]

If you could buy a strain (seeds) that had been genetically modified to turn on spider-mite resistance, and nothing else altered, would that really be a bad thing? Far fewer pesticides needed and used, healthier end product.

That is the main sort of thing done on GMO crops, is increasing yield, pest resistance, and drought resistance. Pot breeders have done the same thing slowly over the years, crossing colors, potency, yield and short harvest cycles. Because they do it over years, and labs do it in months, why is that not seen as an improvment?

What is not done with GMO seeds: "Hey let's see if eating this GMO melon will cause humans to grow tails!"

Its is because of this genetic improvements that billions of people have survived certain starvation. If you'd prefer they did not, that's pretty heartless.

If you want organics to be the future of farming, then you need to locate an organic miracle that multitudes of pHD's with big labs and budgets have not found, or use GMO seeds to make them yield better in field crops. Either way, science is your answer.

Oh yeah, and I've been an atheist since about the age of reason. I can't wait to see peoples heads pop when they engineer the first artificial chromosomed plant or animal. One cell down, billions to go!

 

[JJScorpio]

regardless of what you think you are as welcome as any other thoughts>>> so what!! do something posotive... you nobody

Not the brightest bulb on the tree huh?

Go take a week off. And if you come back with the same attitude it will be permanent. Your posts have only been rated good 24 out of 55 times. So you're going out of your way to stir the pot. It's not flying here anymore. I hope you come back wih a more positive posting style......

 

[toohighmf]

nice knowin ya's!

 

[xmobotx]

i intended to point out that facet of the discussion (thanks lazyman for reinforcing it) but, i also meant to demonstrate how we could get way off topic and open a whole new can of worms (as w/ politics/corporate cynicism) while still actually being on a related strand

idk, i like seeing the dissemination of info

but, part of my confidence in the earth sustaining society is that faith i mentioned (fuck religion though)

 

[Lazyman]

I try to leave my personal politics and feelings out of debates, but yes it would be easy to tangentialize the conversation into GMO or even genes in general. I do think that they will play an increasing role in the world, as they will become an outright necessity when we have 1/4 of the arable land we do now.

Or, the human population will be decimated by a new virus that wipes out a large percentage of the population, and the world can go back to raising food however it likes.

 

[Danks2005]

I am all for GMO, i think it is a well implicated technology. I've said before, the stoners complaining about GMO are the same stoner enjoying their cannabis bred for certain characteristics. Man has been selecting and breeding the best since the begining of agriculture.

 

[mrwags]

I've gone through and taken the liberty of cleaning up the hate.

This thread will remain a civil DISCUSSION not anyone's podium for their one and only way of growing that is demanded to be the said all end all way too grow.

Some of the greatest minds here have posted opinions and that WILL BE RESPECTED as well as anyone's else's for that matter.

I myself have died b4 and felt and know in my heart mind body and soul the feeling of bliss and have my own opinions regarding religion but I beg of all of you to keep it out of here please. It will open a Pandora's Box that will run off the one's who you want to hear from.

I have been busy the past few days and sit here after an 8 hour road trip only to find someone upon his podium. JJ ty for your attention and sorry for my absence.

BUT

I could rattle off a dozen names or so of The Best Damn Grower's In The World you newbies will NEVER hear from. Why? Because they tried openly to share an opinion that was proven to work time and time again and someone who's final grow numbers are less that that persons scraps that he loses on the floor tell's him that he's full of shit.

This is The Think Tank and any and all opinions are welcome just be an adult about it please or be gone.


Have A Great Day
Mr.Wags

 

[xmobotx]

I myself have died b4 and felt and know in my heart mind body and soul the feeling of bliss and have my own opinions regarding religion but I beg of all of you to keep it out of here please. It will open a Pandora's Box that will run off the one's who you want to hear from.

yeah, i agree - i was trying to make a point and it seems a little foolish now

no religion n politics just ag

I could rattle off a dozen names or so of The Best Damn Grower's In The World you newbies will NEVER hear from. Why? Because they tried openly to share an opinion that was proven to work time and time again and someone who's final grow numbers are less that that persons scraps that he loses on the floor tell's him that he's full of shit.

what's sad is when you think the detractors are kids then they turn out to be 30+

seems like the kids are bad enough - then someone you think is mature turns out to be a kid (and they are mature)

fuckin animals anyway

 

[RNDZL]

well ive been playing

I figured it would be alot more fun to experiment with some household items and try to take compost tea a step in a different direction


ITS STILL A WORK IN PROGRESS, but once it is more refined I will do a trial, for now ill share what I did and what my ultimate objectives will be

I can buy salts of the shelf and feed my plants, organic or inorganically derived, I can even by microbes, but I feel they are cheap and easy to make and propagate from organic materials. If we could make this easily applicable to hydroponics without the associated pains people could use organic microbes as a base and add salts to achieve optimal nutrition

the transition to getting salts and making organic derived ions at this pint would be minimal but optional

I a still learning about making teas so im open to input

so in my efforts of playing i came up with a mini "microbe machine" that should be scalable enough to work itself into a hydro resivor, its a blend of aquaponics hydroponics and organics, its diy and it should lbe safe cheap and ez

right now I am hand watering to test it, but as I said, after I feel I have gotten good design and function I can do a trial


if it ends up being lack luster at least you cant say i didnt try

 

[RNDZL]

Initally I used

A) home depot mortar tub

B) homer bucket

C) old aquarium filter

D) plastic mesh chicken wire

E) aquarium bubbler

F) home depot paint screen

set up up as so

Now I tried placing what I will call the "load" bag in various places

the "load" bag hold the organic materials i am using to soak in the tea to get the microbes going

i used the simple tea recipe from the organic thread

EWC, Kelp, Blackstrap (in this case EJ catalyst)

Now my strategy is to use organics that have primarily fast acting N sources

this allows me to provide a base of N and perhaps P K, fast and organically as a side effect of "propagating microbes"

now this has some features and potential features a regular compost tea maker does not

A) the bio wheel in the filter gives microbial life a place to live

B) the filter can hold a cartridge with flow that will filter larger particles out and host more bacteria so they can colonize and thrive

this should allow for the faster if not allow for a longer period of keeping the microbial life active for use


at the point the tea's PH dipped and rose I prepared for application, so the hydro farmer simply go to the microbe resivours and get some microbe juice

because one objective is to always have the tea at teh ready I added a sceond bucket with water and simply moved the load bag and the filter over

I dont have most equipment needed to scientifically qualify the teas microbial makeup

I do expect however that the efforts will yield such results that they should be readily quantifiable in a trial

my next steps will be adding some filtration and working on placing it and the load bag in the filter. I would like to self contain it some more to make the use more attractive and to get it as a lone attachment so its ready for a bucket or a resivor

I also think that microbes can be established and their population maintained by feeding so in essence this should be designed as a microbe hosting and propagation unit to be added to any water body that requires aerobic bacteria colonies

at that point adding organic materials and having them break down into ions is more or less academic.

Now to have that process happen in the live resivor or outside in a preparation tank will need to be determined

please feel free to share comments questions concerns

 

[RNDZL]

I am also experimenting with DR Earth all purpose organic blended fertilizers

they are cheap and they have a extended array of microbial organisms

10$ for 4 lbs I will be using 3-4 tablespoons per 5 gallons of tea


I will use it for bacteria and some basic organic precursors that be available as a byproduct of microbial activity

eventually I would like to test bacteria only vs myco.bacteria to see if there really is no differential in hydro but im not interested in that trial as of yet


benifitial bacteria

Bacillus subtilis,
Bacillus megaterium,
Bacillus cerius,
lactobacillus acidophilus
azotobacter vinelandii
rhizobium japonicum
aspergillus oryzae

mycorrhizae

ecto

Pisolithus tinctorius
rhizopogon villosuli
rhizopogon luteolus
rhizopogon amylopogon
Rhizopogon fulvigleba

endo

Glomus intraradices,
Glomus mosseae,
Glomus aggregatum,

 

[toohighmf]

thats a lot of live stuff! as mentioned, I use salts and Vermi tea, molasses. seems to work great.

 

[RNDZL]

thats a lot of live stuff! as mentioned, I use salts and Vermi tea, molasses. seems to work great.

I started by using power series and pure blend original and aquasheild

ive fed via salts forever, and I really like being able to deliver food in a ready to process form. AKA ionic

that said, vermi t looks great. Suspended bacterias are great

BUT

in essence they should be able to be added to that "microbe machine" and it should host them permanently

feed them some carbs and thats it the population should flourish in that bio wheel.

but the cumulation of ideas came together, not because I really want to make my own shit, it is a PITA

but if i could automate it like an aquarium, so i coudl have the ease of salt and the health of organics and reduce costs and not rely on niche products

fuck why the hell not

and no i don't mind buying the foods but since I have a full array of salt and organic lines, I can afford to play with teas, put them to the test without it costing me or my work any losses

my hope would be in the end to add a unit to host and maintain a microbe population, not just to lower the costs of resupplying them but also to keep microbial activity prime at all times and keep ti sustained even when the grow is being taken down and replanted

 

[grapeman]

Initally I used

A) home depot mortar tub

B) homer bucket

C) old aquarium filter

D) plastic mesh chicken wire

E) aquarium bubbler

F) home depot paint screen

this allows me to provide a base of N and perhaps P K, fast and organically as a side effect of "propagating microbes"

This will be interesting. I hope CT Guy or MM will weigh in here to explain (in their opinion) if this extra effort will pay dividends, or if we get all we need from a fresh batch of tea brewed with a sock and plenty of air.

 

[RNDZL]

This will be interesting. I hope CT Guy or MM will weigh in here to explain (in their opinion) if this extra effort will pay dividends, or if we get all we need from a fresh batch of tea brewed with a sock and plenty of air.

well hopefully

But I don't see it as extra effort regardless

Bottom line is that many people have problems brewing teas and thus they depart from organics

so any efforts I make that can help ease the difficulty, especially through trial and error has a benefit imo

I also used the information they posted in prior threads as nucleus for this concept

EM manufactures seem to do much the same, make a batch of beneficials and keep them alive

the cost f the mortar tub the filter and teh parts is all under 40$ which is cheaper than an microbe brewing set

and it also bio wheel and filter components

teh particles in most organic hydro make it ineffective for many hydroponics and other systems

the filter, both physical and biological should reduce the particle composition

I had a feeling people would have a hard time seeing past what they would interpret as a recreation of the wheel

but as I said that once I feel the design achieves an end that I will do trials to show its effectiveness

this will also be done side by side with plain salts, store bought microbes and ones made on my own

the main objective here is to combat the biggest complaints about organics: Cost complexity and lack of efficiency

this project is meant to show all to be incorrect without the need to overwhelm ones self with research when anecdotal trial and error should as I suggested quantify and qualify at a cost of both time effort and results, and the real differential in applied organics

 

[RNDZL]

bacterium and the krebs cycle



Bacterium support the series Of biochemical reactions ultimately responsible for converting complex organic molecules into energy in aerobic organisms. Humic and amino acids also help enhance the uptake of organic molecules. Includes naturally occurring phytohormones too.

the Kreb's cycle is familiar to those who do pond or fresh water flora

since we are growing hydroponic-ally I contend the same dynamics benefit organic hydro

MORE SO its proof that aerobic bacteria live in aquatic environments including ones that have stress resistance benefits


im trying to build a kreb's cycle filter that supports a thriving population of bacteria

its what is done in fresh water aquariums and ponds and they are able to get a bacterial colony thriving and maintain its concentration using a fraction of the precursors we do in our teas

and they keep the colonies alive using a fraction of those sources

and its contained in a very low maintenance filter

food for thought

 

[RNDZL]

fuck im not even doing anything new and exotic

here is a organic source of maintainable bacteria DESIGNED FOR HYDROPONIC BOTH ORGANIC AND INORGANIC


super cheap and effective


Bio-Cat has been scientifically formulated to provide all the essential ingredients and live cultures to support the rapid growth of over 47 different beneficial micro-biological organisms.

The importance and role of beneficial micro-organisms in fostering plant growth, nutrient uptake and promoting plant health is one of the most misunderstood and neglected subject in agriculture. This is especially true of the hydroponics and horticultural industry, which attempts to create a sterile growing environment.

Soil scientists such as Dr. N.A. Krasilinikov author of Soil Micro-organisms and Higher Plants, have established that beneficial soil micro-biological organisms provide a "definite and considerable influence on the growth and development of plants, and consequently on crop yield”. (p 265)


Purpose:

Reduces Fertilizer Applications - A Natural Source of Nitrogen - Stabalizes Reservior pH

How it Works:

By creating a biologically active solution, Bio-Cat enhances and advances the science of hydroponics and plant
horticulture for those who are employing inorganic or organic nutrients for the growing of plants.

The biologically active solution consists of organic and inorganic nutrients inoculated with selected micro-organisms to create a living environment, which enhances the growth, development, taste, smell and texture of fruits and vegetables.

Bio-Cat uses a broader spectrum of trace elements than traditional hydroponics. Furthermore, Bio-Cat establishes the Kreb’s cycle in nutrient reservoirs, (a complex chemical reaction essential to the manufacture and breakdown of plant acids) and builds a mixed colony of growth promoting micro-organisms.

Advantages of Bio-Cat

The beneficial micro-biological organisms in Bio-Cat enhances organic and “sterile” inorganic nutrient solutions in the following ways:
Bio-Cat helps reduce the need for frequent nutrient changes. A mixed colony of non-pathogenic beneficial microbes will support each other with their metabolites, creating a self-regulating environment without the recurring imbalances in pH and nutrient levels found in “sterile” inorganic nutrient solutions.

Bio-Cat organisms help prevent trace elements from “locking up” and stabilize pH.

Bacteria increases the rate of photosynthesis. In a number of plants the microbial action doubles the rate of photosynthesis, which means that crop production is less affected by diminished light availability.


PONDS AND AQUARIUMS

The beneficial microbiologicals in BIO-CAT work well in ponds and aquariums for controlling algae. Furthermore, the Nitrobacters and Nitrosomonas found in BIO-CAT set up the nitrogen cycle which breaks down ammonia and nitrites created by fish wastes and significantly reduces the time to establish biofilters. To derive the most benefit from BIO-CAT, ponds and aquariums should be well aerated.




HYDROPONIC & NFT SYSTEMS
Add 20 ml (3 tbs./gal.) of BIO-CAT to 1 liters of nutrient solution.
Azobacters (nitrogen fixing bacteria) and other beneficial bacterial cultures require that the nutrient solution pH be maintained at 6.0 -6.5.
After the first application, reapply BIO-CAT every 3-4 weeks at a rate of 5 ml. per 1 liters of solutions (1 1/2 tbs./gal.).
Be sure to reduce fertilizer applications correspondingly (reduce by 1/2).

IMPORTANT:
The beneficial bacteria in BIO-CAT are aerobic (need oxygen) and in order to ensure their growth and development nutrient reservoirs should be well aerated.



My use of a Microbe machine filter keeps them alive longer and gives them a place to propagate> I had this discussion with the owner of nutrilife


above and beyond that notice the addition of bacteria REDUCE THE NEED FOR INORGANIC NUTRIENTS BY 50%

this is why so many people burned the shit outta their plants using the AN line and why they have to make it less effective to keep it from fucking up plants


the use of bacteria could reduce the fertilization needs of inorganic gardens by 50% that alone equate to time and money saved


im going to go off in a mind blowing tanget because I see a much bigger and its very tough for me to get this granular for any amount of time

 

[xmobotx]

running charcoal in compost tea, i have found that, given time (usually beyond the 'usable' period of the CT) the tea goes clear

i consider the charcoal to be yet another buffer in my system (which is outdoor organic veggy garden) and some of that is based on this observation as well as use in aquariums of charcoal

in conjunction w/ your concept RNDZL, it seems like charcoal (which you may already have introduced if it's in the bio-wheel) could be tapped to help filter particulate and stabilize the "tea res"

if the tea res is then 'over-filled' as a means of distributing the nute solution to the main res (sans particulate which would tend to settle,) it seems to me that a large portion of the particulate issue is addressed? that in conjunction w/ a screen/mesh filter could/should get you down to where emitters clogging becomes a non-issue?

 

[RNDZL]

running charcoal in compost tea, i have found that, given time (usually beyond the 'usable' period of the CT) the tea goes clear

i consider the charcoal to be yet another buffer in my system (which is outdoor organic veggy garden) and some of that is based on this observation as well as use in aquariums of charcoal

in conjunction w/ your concept RNDZL, it seems like charcoal (which you may already have introduced if it's in the bio-wheel) could be tapped to help filter particulate and stabilize the "tea res"

if the tea res is then 'over-filled' as a means of distributing the nute solution to the main res (sans particulate which would tend to settle,) it seems to me that a large portion of the particulate issue is addressed? that in conjunction w/ a screen/mesh filter could/should get you down to where emitters clogging becomes a non-issue?

there is no charcoal in that filter, but i have no exonerated the use of it

the biowheel is simply porous and has greater surface area to allow for a environment for bacteria to thrive

filter floss does the same

see traditional teas as I understand them allow bacteria to battle it out and when the tea reaches proper balance its applied


what im hoping to do here is cultivate and keep a balanced stable population that is always active

I want to add to the filter by substituting the traditional charcoal filter portion with simple nylon screen and filter floss

when I have had healthy aquariums in the past I used the same techniques to guarantee a environment for bacteria to thrive

I have found the greater your bacteria populations in the wet dry area of your filter does equate to less particles in the water

its common, no niche industry components and low costs and successful application on aquatic horticulture makes it an attractive starting point for me to experiment and allow for some level of trial and interactive demonstration


but the objects are to blend

speed and ease of hydro WITH the added benefits of organics including

add a higher efficiency to the use of nutrient

reduce crop loss to pathogens and pets thus reducing need and dependancies on remedies and cure

provide a scalable model that can be easily adapted to any grow tech

complete detachment of dependency on niche MJ hort products

im sure there is more but thats off the top my head