The Organic Think Tank

[mullray]

Fe (Iron) has always been somewhat of an issue in nutrient formulation. There's nothing new in this and micro elements need to be chelated for this reason. Here's some info on it.. Besides this there is amino/micro proteinate Fe which is fantastic stuff along with proteinate Zn, Cu etc. But then none of this is likely relevant to organic growers as the good gear comes from science - a lab- and a bag (as does nano tech).

EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA with Fe:

Chelates like EDTA and DTPA are commonly added to fertilizers. These chelates have a high affinity for Iron and generally form stable complexes with the metal across a pH range from 4 to 7.

Chelates have several points of attachment with which they "grasp" the trace element. EDTA has four connecting points, while DTPA has five, but the higher number of connection points may not always be an advantage.

EDTA is best suited to slightly lower than neutral pH levels while DTPA is most effective at higher pH values. DTPA is more costly than EDTA and less soluble and is usually found in higher quality fertilizers.

The most effective of the synthetic chelating agents is ethylenediaminedihydroxy-phenylaceticacid (EDDHA). It is found only in select fertilization formulations because of its higher cost.

A cross range (mix) of Fe EDTA, DTPA, EDDHA or, EDTA and DTPA chelates in formulation is ideal. This will ensure nutrient availability over a wide range of conditions, including those above or below optimal.

"IF the nano iron chelate was somehow providing increased reducing power in key chloroplast processes an increase in photosynthesis might be realised."
Nice jargon.... Can we see the research? How about a link that supports what you're claiming with credible research?

 

[MrFista]

Mullray - Essential Biology, Campbell. Biochemistry, Stryer. Basic Medical Biochemistry. Lipincotts Biochemistry.

If you keep implying I'm some kind of cut and paste idiot then you are the idiot and this conversation is over - pull your bloody head in.

CO2 will not be taken up during lights out as the badly named "dark reactions" (calvin cycle) are linked to the production of ATP and NADPH from the exergonic light reactions. Without light there's nothing produced to drive the endergonic reactions of sugar production, so no uptake of CO2...

What I'm hinting at with the nano Fe is that it might be slightly more reactive, or unstable, and this speeds the pace of the redox reactions it is involved in. The positioning of the ferrodoxin complex at the end of the electron transport chain might make this possible. Not saying it is, just that it is a possibility.

All this can't language Grapeman. Can't... yet. We are infants at science, but we're trying. To solve problems first there needs to be a problem recognised. To me the way we produce food is a problem. I'm working on it. So are you or you wouldn't be trying to preserve organic matter on the property. We aint so different after all you just mistook me for an urban guilt screaming greenie with hemp clothing bad hair and pamphlets.

Not so. I wear denim.

Farming is what it is, highly productive, highly destructive. This is not pointing the finger at you, but the general trend of ferts finding their way into streams and knocking out a myriad of life forms as they go. Especially those Amish bastards farms, good will and platitudes kills trout dead.

There is room for improvement, imo a lot of room. The greatest problem the environment faces today is corporate greed. These are the people selling pseudo science to go with their products. It gets hard to know who to believe living under the influence of the corporate spin machine, they've fucked the reputation of science, agriculture, horticulture and more, we argue it out on the sidelines, their profits continue unhampered.

 

[mullray]

Mullray - Essential Biology, Campbell. Biochemistry, Stryer. Basic Medical Biochemistry. Lipincotts Biochemistry.

If you keep implying I'm some kind of cut and paste idiot then you are the idiot and this conversation is over - pull your bloody head in.

CO2 will not be taken up during lights out as the badly named "dark reactions" (calvin cycle) are linked to the production of ATP and NADPH from the exergonic light reactions. Without light there's nothing produced to drive the endergonic reactions of sugar production, so no uptake of CO2...

What I'm hinting at with the nano Fe is that it might be slightly more reactive, or unstable, and this speeds the pace of the redox reactions it is involved in. The positioning of the ferrodoxin complex at the end of the electron transport chain might make this possible. Not saying it is, just that it is a possibility.

All this can't language Grapeman. Can't... yet. We are infants at science, but we're trying. To solve problems first there needs to be a problem recognised. To me the way we produce food is a problem. I'm working on it. So are you or you wouldn't be trying to preserve organic matter on the property. We aint so different after all you just mistook me for an urban guilt screaming greenie with hemp clothing bad hair and pamphlets.

Not so. I wear denim.

Farming is what it is, highly productive, highly destructive. This is not pointing the finger at you, but the general trend of ferts finding their way into streams and knocking out a myriad of life forms as they go. Especially those Amish bastards farms, good will and platitudes kills trout dead.

There is room for improvement, imo a lot of room. The greatest problem the environment faces today is corporate greed. These are the people selling pseudo science to go with their products. It gets hard to know who to believe living under the influence of the corporate spin machine, they've fucked the reputation of science, agriculture, horticulture and more, we argue it out on the sidelines, their profits continue unhampered.

You're sounding a bit paranoid. No need to pull my head in --- I'm not the one putting it out but cheers for the tip. So explain this nano to me in a way that sounds intelligent 4 a bit cause all I've heard from you so far is bloody reductive dribble mate.

 

[MrFista]

I think you might want to examine the quality of your own inputs mullray. They're lacking any substance bar flippant ignorance. Adding some basic textbook information to the conversation quickly revealed the truth of why you requested intelligence - you lack it.

You are what is known as a troll, good day sir, enjoy your sad and pathetic life.

 

[xmobotx]

?

 

[cannaboy]

lets just say that I forgot to top up water and my hydro is all fucked!!!! but the outdoor is ok whoop whoop..

 

[mullray]

I think you might want to examine the quality of your own inputs mullray. They're lacking any substance bar flippant ignorance. Adding some basic textbook information to the conversation quickly revealed the truth of why you requested intelligence - you lack it.

You are what is known as a troll, good day sir, enjoy your sad and pathetic life.

I'm still awaiting intelligence. That much is certain. So credible links to research or not? I'm intrigued. A quick search of your nano and plant physiology led me to GM research links (which of course has nothing to do with organics and opens an entirely new can of worms). Ah, the last bastion of the dribbling immature moron. Flick a few insults around.

 

[mullray]

lets just say that I forgot to top up water and my hydro is all fucked!!!! but the outdoor is ok whoop whoop..

Yep - based on the quality of your posts the fact that you're too incompetent to handle hydro doesn't surprise me.

 

[cannaboy]

Only messin I wouldn't bother with hydro cos its crap! not as good as soil anyway thats for sure more complex aromas and flavours in soil when grown perfectly compared to hydro perfectly..

 

[mullray]

Say no more

 

[xmobotx]

Ah, the last bastion of the dribbling immature moron. Flick a few insults around.

exactly

 

[Budbaby]

You DO use some sort of a medium, right?

You DO use some sort of a medium, right?

Personally, I have found that organic soil(less) growing is easier than hydro or running synthetic nutes, especially if you are not mono-cropping. It is hard to overfeed with organics and it is therefore more forgiving. There are no reservoirs to deal with, no slime/pumps/topping off/ec/pH/res temps etc. I run Earth Juice nutes, which are very inexpensive. The GO line is also pretty reasonable. Both give terrific results. Build a decent soil, feed and water, and let nature take it's course. What could be easier?

Pardon me....I'm an ignorant newbie, and I'm trying to understand. You do not use soil or water...is that what you are saying? Coco?

I have a few plants, 2.5 and 4.5 weeks old, who have recently been transplanted to a drip system, and two clones that I purchased in soil. I'd like to go organic, but I don't really know where to start. They are all under a 400w MH. Could an ebb and flow system be run, organically?

Organic is vital to me, as I just detoxified my body of about thirty prescription pills each day. One medicine, a plant (tee hee), is about all I need now, aside from my daily injection. Thank God!

I want my plants to have full, healthy lives and not to poison me after they are harvested. Thank you for anything from a suggestion to a shopping list.

 

[Mob Barley420]

True organics with guanos and animal product are far more dangerous for your health when smoking/vaping. As is Soil for the most part. Smoking cadmium, nickle, iron, and other trace elements is not healthy. Would you eat a turd? would you smoke one? how about bonemeal? When we eat organic foods our body digests and uptakes the minerals. smoking them is converting them to a toxic carcinogen. I use salt based ferts and a substrate I can fully flush.

Word!!!! Very good point, we might use mineral salts in RW, CoCo or DWC but it's all flushable and ends up higher quality, and more healthy than "Organic" soil bud IMHO.

 

[Lazyman]

Hey growers, My buddy and I want to open a hydro shop somewhere in the bay area and I need your help with choosing a location. We're looking for a place that doesn't have a good hydro shop already. If anyone out there has some good suggestions, I'm all ears. I also am looking for suggestions on product lines to carry. I have been growing for years and only know the couple of nutes I've personally used. thanks

Good luck, talk to Hydrofarm and Sunlight Supply, they will both tell you their protected territories already encompass the majority of northern california. You will probably have to be south of San Jose to even have a chance, and most companies are struggling because there is so much competition right now. You will never have lower prices than can be found on the internet, and you will start out much smaller than any other hydro shop in existence.

Basically, I had the same idea, and it took two days of solid legwork to see it dashed to ribbons. I hope you find success where I could not!

 

[hashberry]

As a dirty chem grower, this statement seems dead on to me. Organics is like learning Chinese - Hard to learn, harder to master, and pretty much pointless.

I know this thread is 40 pages and this has nothing to do with organics, but I just thought I would point out that this is a terrible analogy. Chinese is an easy language to learn(really, it is), and it is far from pointless... Linguists are thinking that it will be one of the next global languages since it is based on pictures, which are much more easily learned by those who cannot read.

just sayin.

 

[h.h.]

Hey growers, My buddy and I want to open a hydro shop somewhere in the bay area and I need your help with choosing a location. We're looking for a place that doesn't have a good hydro shop already. If anyone out there has some good suggestions, I'm all ears. I also am looking for suggestions on product lines to carry. I have been growing for years and only know the couple of nutes I've personally used. thanks

Why sell nutes that you haven't used? Why all the redundancy at the shops?
You have soil, hydro, organic, non organic and combinations of all four, but that's it. Just sell what you know works and comes at a decent price. Just sell the good shit and don't stock 30 brands just to make you look big or to trick people into buying those with the biggest mark up. When your customer succeeds, so will you.
Lots of start ups. Lots of competition from shops who are starting to get big. Ones who can outstock you as well as outprice you. What you have to sell is your expertise. Your personal involvement in each and every grow and your honesty. Fill a nitche the big boys can't.
Seriously though, I'd do a lot of market research first. Living in a small town, we had 2 shops open a block apart within a week of each other. There was barely a market for 1. The one that survived had the cash to stay open with few customers to support them until they gained all the customers. Tee shirt give aways and discounts helped with the process. You gotta have the cash.

 

[jeffie]

I will not agree with a lot said here. So I just state and be done with it. to me:

Chemical gardening is primitive and boring. 20 elements or so? u gotta be kidding me...

Organic does taste better from my cherries, pears and indoor basil with tomatoes and strawberries. My neighbors' organically fed chicken eggs are waaay superior to anything out there. I have ponds with trout don't get me started on that.. WHAT U FEED IS IN TASTE AND SMELL OF EVERYTHING YOU HARVEST (one way or another).

Organics has so many possibilities and variables...
Organic gardening does not yield less - in fact it yields better. Organics are totally capable of producing most proffered elements plants can uptake to their very limit and then some more to provide an even higher boost. Healthy, live micro-herd is the key.

With organics you can find that golden recipe for your plant - with chemicals you'll be smelling and tasting just like everyone else's weed - flushed... doh

It is all in the balance of things, not in imaginable "purity"
The best smelling hash I've ever smoked was mine and it was grown on some finest shit nature had given me ...cow shit, chicken poo, garden fruit compost, complex natural hays, fish, deer bones and soil from that ditch up the hill

Give me a break with that modern undeveloped chemi shit marketed as scientific breakthrough cos it ain't.

haha peace

 

[bearded1]

I tried the chem way, had some trials and tribulations. Growing organic and its so much better. Less time looking for signs of trouble and more watching healthy plants grow. I spent my life with complicated shit studing constantly to keep up with technology. with an organic grow its symplfied. I mix my soil, i transplant my babby girls and I watch them grow. No metters nothing to mix but worm shit, watter, and mollasses. don't get any better n dat.

 

[Strainhunter]

Just for starters you will need around 150k (better 200).

You will need exclusive wholesale contracts which are pretty much impossible to get due to your desired location - that fact alone should tell you how hard it is to get started.

My recommendation:

Start out by finding yourself small wholesalers who are willing to work with you.
You will need a physical store address (and evidence for that) or most wholesalers will NOT be willing to work with you, in other words just online sales is not going to work, neither. And don't think you are going to get around that because they do check.

There is a whole lot more to say about starting a Hydro store but the above already should give you enough to get sorted out before you move on.


Wishing you good luck with your task!

Hey growers, My buddy and I want to open a hydro shop somewhere in the bay area and I need your help with choosing a location. We're looking for a place that doesn't have a good hydro shop already. If anyone out there has some good suggestions, I'm all ears. I also am looking for suggestions on product lines to carry. I have been growing for years and only know the couple of nutes I've personally used. thanks

 

[LadyLargely]

Also, to the big organic fans, who has not seen the Penn and Teller episode of Bullshit on organics? Real eye-opener that, in all of their blind taste tests people chose the non-organic bananas 90% of the time over organics. When they cut a non-organic banana in half and told people that half was organic, the people preferred the organic side, of the non-organic banana! Just shows you that folks are stupid and will buy what they're told is better.

Yea, I saw that Penn and Teller episode. You know what else I witnessed? A conversation by a PhD in psychology about that episode. I love Penn and Teller, but they used a really fuckin' nasty trick in their organic taste test. Go back and watch it again:

[youtubeif]c_IoNQHMFLk[/youtubeif]

LOOK AT THE FUCKING PLATES!!!!

The organic samples are ALWAYS on a red plate and the non-organic samples are ALWAYS on a blue plate. You can ask any fucking under-graduate psychology student and he/she'll tell you that the red vs. blue trick is a classic way to influence the results of a test like this. Penn and Teller committed some serious bullshit on this one so they would get the results they wanted for their ever-controversial show. And here you thought that their experiment was actually credible science.

You said it best Lazyman: "Just shows you that folks are stupid"
​

Here's a nice paper on the subject for those who are unfamiliar with the phenomenon:

www.sjdm.org/~baron/journal/11/10629/jdm10629.pdf

This is the problem with organic vs. inorganic debates!

The comparisons are never fucking fair! Comparing organic to inorganic farming is like comparing apples to water buffalo. They are so completely unrelated to each-other it is nearly a moot point to make. On top of that some asshole, like Penn & Teller in this case, is always harboring a personal agenda in these situations. Its just fucked!

As for organic supporters who used subjective shit like "taste" to defend the merits of organics:

Fucking shame on you! That kindof shit just makes us sound like a bunch of ignorant hippies! That is no way to go about promoting the benefits of our grow style. Why aren't you talking about the real shit like:

-beneficial microbes
-low-maintenance water-only feed schedules
-disease and pest resistance
-the ability to recycle your medium
-no-till grow practices

The list is a hell of a lot longer and more concrete than subjective shit like "better taste" or "a sense of well-being". That stuff is nice and everything, but you are never gonna convince lovable fools like NiteTiger with that kind of bull-pucky.

Oh, and seriously, fuck the Amish. Don't you dare compare those assholes to me just because we both fertilize our crops with organic materials. Their way of life discourages learning and promotes ignorance, of course they where gonna cause some kind of ecological disaster eventually. When you have that kind of glad-handing 'god will take care of it' attitude you are always going to cause problems for yourself and especially those around you. All of my waste gets recycled, composted or is otherwise accounted for.

The benefits of organic gardening don't come out of a fucking bottle. They come from the force that drives all of life. The breathing, crawling, pulsating spirit that fills every living thing. It is our bread. It is our water. It is our sustenance.

It is the best way to grow cannabis!

This is just the beginning... ... ...

-LadyLargely