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The Nevils Haze and Nevils Haze hybrids discussion thread.

Stoneguru

Well-known member
Selecting males off morphology alone is no different than selecting a female off of looks. Doing so propagates mediocrity.

It would be relatively easy to find a male C S1 to match a blurry picture in looks. It is for any other line. The problem is a plant can look spot on and smoke like shit or look different and smoke like the parent.

Every additional qualifier of quality makes it harder to find and requires exponentially larger populations to do so.

As an arbitrary example If it's 1:30 plants that look like male C and 1:30 with the potency or effect it could be as few as 1:900 that has all of both in full.

There are always exceptions. The outliers or ancestors tend to be the most dominant breeders from my experience. Then it is a matter of those dominant traits are desirable or worth what comes with them.

More often than that people settle for the desirable trait of one of the parents at significantly less concentration of the parent.
Well now they're propagating a lesser examples with far fewer examples that will be where parent was. Propagating Mediocrity.

I hadn't read much of Nevil's thread. It's clear that Nevil also considered profile and smoking experience to be a qualifier of quality in haze. Ie: catpiss etc.

The profile of the best haze is more exceptional than anything imo and also the most difficult to find and breed. He sure didn't hold back I'm doing the work. However. Anything that comes after where the same standards aren't held can and have undone the work very quickly.

From my perspective the most important key to restoring and maintaining haze is not bro science or only academic.

It is hard work and uncompromising standards. I don't think haze is restored and maintained through 10's of plants. It's through 100's and 1000's. Like every other profession hard work and determination will outpace everything else.

I don't care for Nobody's pompous attitude, but he has my 💯 respect on Doing the work. A lot more people are doing the same. The new 10 has become 100 and the needle of quality is moving forward as a direct result. Rapidly in fact.

Best of 200-300 raises the quality of the average and the peak. Best of 30 plants can just as easily drop the quality from where the parental stock was at.

I think the best of a pack mentality is detrimental.

30 plants is a minimum threshold of getting a glimpse of a line. Anything less is a sample packet lotto.

At around 100 plants an understanding of the line is beginning.

At 3 versions tested of F2 and 3 outcrossing tested the comprehension of breeding dynamics of the specific parent begins. Not attained. Begins.

That is close to 200 plants to have an understanding of 1 plant and from my experience this understanding does not just translate to others projects or genetics.

If I take what I learned from one plant and assume that the same is true of another or something someone else is doing I will be wrong.

The practice of these or similar guidelines results in an intimate experience based understanding that is more insightful than what can be read and equip to make informed selections.

*These are just examples and there are always exceptions, but if the objective is to maintain or preserve quality haze then large populations and uncompromising standards are the most effective keys to doing so.
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
You can with the right selections continue the quality into F2s, F3s and so on.

The male sides the Key and knowing how to select threw them.

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you cannot recreate the f1 this is the main problem ,,you can make f1s and you can go again to make a three quarter bred like nh an get even better results but if you hit that again you now gotta a watered down haze instead of pure which will make it weaker on a cross ,,you bred your nh to f3 so you breeding three quarter breds together you can maintain the general quality but again you cant recreate the f1 vigour most dont understand if your inbreeding on a cross genetically your just remixing a cross ie still outcrossing just within a line ,,for me its easy to tell nevile was a dog breeder lol
 

Stoneguru

Well-known member
you cannot recreate the f1 this is the main problem ,,you can make f1s and you can go again to make a three quarter bred like nh an get even better results but if you hit that again you now gotta a watered down haze instead of pure which will make it weaker on a cross ,,you bred your nh to f3 so you breeding three quarter breds together you can maintain the general quality but again you cant recreate the f1 vigour most dont understand if your inbreeding on a cross genetically your just remixing a cross ie still outcrossing just within a line ,,for me its easy to tell nevile was a dog breeder lol
With the same resources which ways would you have done things differently?

Of those differences how would you expect your methods or selections to be improved and why?
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
if you mean in general im a dog breeder also and have used the same common knowledge linebreding methods many times so i would do the same,,, im doing the same now ,,,, ive bred many haze hybrids together over the years trying to recreate the old favs now ive got my grubby little mitts on pure haze im making f1s via outcross and also within the haze family ie crossing to other pure haze lines same principal just more refined after all to me breeding is simply refining
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
Not that it really matters, but nevils haze is not an f1. It’s called a backcross.
Yes, I know nevil called it a f1.
Northern lights x haze = f1
(NL x Hz) x Haze = backcross
your right my wording can be terrible apologies ,, haze 5 is the f1 and in my post i stated you can hit that back to haze again to make a nh a three quarter bred etc
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
theres only 3 choices we have ultimately we can take the genes backwards breeding back into the heritage linebreeding direction is backwards,,, we can inbreed with siblings no direction just remixing the genes at the point there at ,,at this time ,,or we can outcross creating something new the direction is forward all these tekneeks can be used in or out of an existing line,,, if that makes any sense lol
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
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an example of what i mean 3 ,,f1s ,,top is oh x thh,,,middle is oh x todds haze altho these are f1 the haze lines all originally came from sams stuff so they withing a broad family i would call this the wet fart velocity of an f1 ,,,the bottom pic a oh x bb a true f1 both parents heavily inbred and tottally unrelated i would expect much more vigour as to the type of f1 ,,,,none of these have been tested all could be crap for all i know just trying to explain the difference in f1s ive already bred a few f1s back to haze again to make three quarter breds but i would not hit it again with haze for the reasons i mentioned before
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
you cannot recreate the f1 this is the main problem ,,you can make f1s and you can go again to make a three quarter bred like nh an get even better results but if you hit that again you now gotta a watered down haze instead of pure which will make it weaker on a cross ,,you bred your nh to f3 so you breeding three quarter breds together you can maintain the general quality but again you cant recreate the f1 vigour most dont understand if your inbreeding on a cross genetically your just remixing a cross ie still outcrossing just within a line ,,for me its easy to tell nevile was a dog breeder lol

No you can't but what you can do is select threw the F1s and if you get it right the F2s will show you ancestral plants that made that F1.

That is what I did, I found HzA types and HzC types and now in the F3s I know if I grow this seed batch the plants that will grow will be heavy HzA leaning or if I grow these seed the plants will be heavy leaning HzC plants.

You can take them in different directions, as I have and then bring them back together at a later point, basically reproducing the F1.

The males are key as they carry the ancestral information.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Not that it really matters, but nevils haze is not an f1. It’s called a backcross.
Yes, I know nevil called it a f1.
Northern lights x haze = f1
(NL x Hz) x Haze = backcross

Nevil Haze used two different males, the HzA was used over the NL5 a plant from that pairing was selected and then the HzC was used to make the F1 Nevils Haze.

A back cross would have, re-used the HzA male over the 5HzA female.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Backcrossing is a crossing of a hybrid with one of its parents or an individual genetically similar to its parent, to achieve offspring with a genetic identity closer to that of the parent. It is used in horticulture, animal breeding, and production of gene knockout organisms.

backcross. A breeding method used to move one or only a few desirable genes from a line (donor parent, often an agronomically poor or unadapted line) to an elite line (recurrent parent). This is done by crossing a donor parent to an elite line, and crossing offspring with the 'desired gene(s)' back to the elite parent.


The HzA and HzC were very different plants that may or may not have been half brother's at best.
 

LostTribe

Well-known member
Premium user
Veteran
I agree that you must test the progeny to know if any male is worthy of being called a select breeding male, but what I meant was that previous generations of the same seed stock will hold a higher percentage of desirable breeding characteristics, they are less watered down with more genomic combinations remaining possible.
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
No you can't but what you can do is select threw the F1s and if you get it right the F2s will show you ancestral plants that made that F1.

That is what I did, I found HzA types and HzC types and now in the F3s I know if I grow this seed batch the plants that will grow will be heavy HzA leaning or if I grow these seed the plants will be heavy leaning HzC plants.

You can take them in different directions, as I have and then bring them back together at a later point, basically reproducing the F1.

The males are key as they carry the ancestral information.
i have respect for you knowledge< you taught me a thing or two >an i love what you done with the nh would love to try it myself ,,good work brother , was only trying to show the tekneeks nevile used are common amongst dog breeders ,,,id love to see one of your most potent females bred back to a good pure haze male ,,in effect linebreeding
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
Nevil Haze used two different males, the HzA was used over the NL5 a plant from that pairing was selected and then the HzC was used to make the F1 Nevils Haze.

A back cross would have, re-used the HzA male over the 5HzA female.
this is interesting i did not know he used two diffrent males its actually simple linebreeding he made the f1 then bred it back into the haze line using a different male getting a little more vigour in the mix ,,i like it
 
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