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The Nevils Haze and Nevils Haze hybrids discussion thread.

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
Very few if any test their male or males or worse open pollinate, so how are you going to steer a line to the direction you won't without careful selection.

Sam RIP put me onto this guy.

View attachment 19142690
personsally i have no interest in reversing males an stuff like that but prodigy testing/ selection is everything as breeding is refining
 

Morphote

Well-known member
Veteran
personsally i have no interest in reversing males an stuff like that but prodigy testing/ selection is everything as breeding is refining
DJ Short said reversing males can give insight/foresight as to what the male brings to the equation in terms of smell, flavor, and (less so) effect. It is definitely a valuable breeder's tool. Conversely, if you can't reverse the male then you know the male does not have the intersex trait. Breeders need to be doing this.

M.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Well if haze C isn’t directly related to haze A then it’s definitely not an f1 either. Get it? It would be a poly-hybrid. But I get f1 is easy to say.
And whorled is not triploid. But it’s easy to say triploid when you see 3 leaves coming from 1 node. But still wrong.

Why are you trying to start arguments Ringtail you clearly don't like me, so why come to my thread and start being abrasive ?

A triploid (3n) has 3 nodes 3 branches and 3 shade leaf at the same point of the steam, but to truly test for it, you need to run Lab tests and I don't have access to that.

I have spoked to someone that has a Triploid and where did I describe a Triploid as 3 leaves coming from 1 node.


1738303063989.jpeg


I also have a sister plant showing the same trait / anomaly.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Read the bottom two lines of Nevils post.

Half brothers at best, and both HzA and HzC were pure Haze.

1738304112891.png
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
DJ Short said reversing males can give insight/foresight as to what the male brings to the equation in terms of smell, flavor, and (less so) effect. It is definitely a valuable breeder's tool. Conversely, if you can't reverse the male then you know the male does not have the intersex trait. Breeders need to be doing this.

M.
thanks for the info and i hear you ,,im a fan of dj an his work ,,,,,the path of reversing males just dont appeal to me , i was not trying to suggest it has no value because of my preference as i have literally zero experiance of the process
 

RingtailCanyon

Well-known member
Why are you trying to start arguments Ringtail you clearly don't like me, so why come to my thread and start being abrasive ?

A triploid (3n) has 3 nodes 3 branches and 3 shade leaf at the same point of the steam, but to truly test for it, you need to run Lab tests and I don't have access to that.

I have spoked to someone that has a Triploid and where did I describe a Triploid as 3 leaves coming from 1 node.


View attachment 19142817

I also have a sister plant showing the same trait / anomaly.
I can’t believe I am taking the time to correct you again. I understand you are infallible. Please don’t play the “you don’t like me” victim game.

Triploid refers to chromosome number within a cell, while whorled phyllotaxy describes the spatial arrangement of leaves on a stem.

To determine if a plant is triploid, you would need to analyze its cells under a microscope, while to observe whorled phyllotaxy, you would look at the pattern of leaf arrangement on the stem.

There are literally dozens of threads on this site and others that describe the differences.

Nevils haze is not an F1. It just isn’t.
A backcross doesn’t just mean breeding back to a recurrent parent. You’ve got to open your mind past the elementary bro science stage.

Reversing males is a good way to sample their profiles, but has no effect on their breeding worth. It doesn’t tell you if it is homozygous or heterozygous for the traits you are trying to pass on.

I think eventually most will come to the conclusion that selected clones are the best for production and selecting that female from open pollination sources is better than using 1 male. I don’t trust any of you guys (including DJ) to pick “the best” male.
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
i hope my posts didnt cause any of this confusion ,,,haze 5 is an f1 ,,haze x nl5 ,,,nh is nl5x haze x haze so three quarter bred back into the haze side , pretty straightforward,,,,seen a bunch of folks talk negative of bro science i love bro science im a truthseeker and truths were you hear it ,can come from a child an adult an idiot or a genius someone you love or who you hate it makes no difference ,,,itll be were you hear it lol ,ive talked to academics whove done nothing more than memorise others work /ideas and parade around reciting it like a demented parrot,,fools most people mind you and some even make a living out of it lol
 

RingtailCanyon

Well-known member
i hope my posts didnt cause any of this confusion ,,,haze 5 is an f1 ,,haze x nl5 ,,,nh is nl5x haze x haze so three quarter bred back into the haze side , pretty straightforward,,,,seen a bunch of folks talk negative of bro science i love bro science im a truthseeker and truths were you hear it ,can come from a child an adult an idiot or a genius someone you love or who you hate it makes no difference ,,,itll be were you hear it lol ,ive talked to academics whove done nothing more than memorise others work /ideas and parade around reciting it like a demented parrot,,fools most people mind you and some even make a living out of it lol
You didn’t confuse things at all harvestreaper.
Believe me, I do many things people call bro science, like drought stress. When I say bro science here, I mean calling whorled phyllotaxy a triploid. 2 different things. Truth seekers should be appalled at some of the comments.
 

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
personsally i have no interest in reversing males an stuff like that but prodigy testing/ selection is everything as breeding is refining
I'm right there with you as far as reversing staminate plants. Even after a sex change, how do you really know the qualities of the reversed staminate (now pistillate) plants are going to give the same qualities as the pre-reversed staminate plant pollen?

It's a _different_ plant now, after the sex change.

I understand the logic of the concept of reversal, I'm just not sure of the science.

I've always used my staminate parental units because of their structure, vigor, and/or flowering time.
 

Morphote

Well-known member
Veteran
I don't like selfed plants, I have other ways to test my males, and I value my selected males as much as a do a prize female.
Reminds me of the old conversations we used to have over at MNS. Miss those days.
thanks for the info and i hear you ,,im a fan of dj an his work ,,,,,the path of reversing males just dont appeal to me , i was not trying to suggest it has no value because of my preference as i have literally zero experiance of the process
No problem. Just sharing information so that we might all grow together. Much love.

M.
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
You didn’t confuse things at all harvestreaper.
Believe me, I do many things people call bro science, like drought stress. When I say bro science here, I mean calling whorled phyllotaxy a triploid. 2 different things. Truth seekers should be appalled at some of the comments.
no worries and i might of been appalled if id known myself ,,,wernt til i read your post i knew what either was lol
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
I'm right there with you as far as reversing staminate plants. Even after a sex change, how do you really know the qualities of the reversed staminate (now pistillate) plants are going to give the same qualities as the pre-reversed staminate plant pollen?

It's a _different_ plant now, after the sex change.

I understand the logic of the concept of reversal, I'm just not sure of the science.

I've always used my staminate parental units because of their structure, vigor, and/or flowering time.
hey charley,,,yea that makes sense cant say i even really understood the process til i read your post so thanks,,for me we take plants and animals from nature and thats were the rules of how to bred them are written ,,anything else would be arrogance to me lol like you i like vigour ,,,,strong life force before anything ,,,we should all just do it how we see fit an then we would all propagate variety organically
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Believe me, I do many things people call bro science, like drought stress. When I say bro science here, I mean calling whorled phyllotaxy a triploid. 2 different things. Truth seekers should be appalled at some of the comments.

I posted a picture of a 3n plant not a Whorled phyllotaxy and I also said to know if it is a Triploid you need to have it Lab tested. The picture I posted is not of a Whorled phyllotaxy.

Whorled phyllotaxy- The whorl type phyllotaxy is when two or more leaves develop at each node.

To determine if a plant is triploid, you would need to analyze its cells under a microscope, while to observe whorled phyllotaxy, you would look at the pattern of leaf arrangement on the stem.

There are literally dozens of threads on this site and others that describe the differences.


Detecting triploid endosperm can be challenging, requiring sophisticated techniques.
Methods include:
Flow Cytometry: This technique measures the DNA content of individual nuclei, allowing the identification of 3n endosperm cells.
Chromosomal Analysis: Karyotyping of endosperm tissue can directly reveal the chromosome number (3n).
Molecular Markers: Specific DNA markers can be used to identify genomic regions characteristic of polyploidy.
Seed Size and Shape Analysis: Triploid endosperm often results in seeds of altered size and shape. This can be assessed through simple visual inspection or quantitative image analysis.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Nevils haze is not an F1. It just isn’t.
A backcross doesn’t just mean breeding back to a recurrent parent. You’ve got to open your mind past the elementary bro science stage.

The HzA and the HzC were at best half brothers, so how is crossing a 5-HzA with a HzC a backcross when the HzC plant pollinating the 5HzA is not one of the parent plants of the 5HzA seed.

Reversing males is a good way to sample their profiles, but has no effect on their breeding worth. It doesn’t tell you if it is homozygous or heterozygous for the traits you are trying to pass on.

I think eventually most will come to the conclusion that selected clones are the best for production and selecting that female from open pollination sources is better than using 1 male. I don’t trust any of you guys (including DJ) to pick “the best” male.

How is open pollination a better way, Luther Burbank didn't use it.

1738357911996.png


To find good plants to clone you need to have access to good seed stock that will produce good plants and most lines today are poly hybrids these days and people need to run numbers of plants to find a good plant. Selective breeding improves the odds of good or better plants being found and by achieving that fewer numbers of seed are needed to find a plant one can clone.

Bro science is reading people's posts on a canna forum and thinking it's science real science is putting the work in and finding what works, and you know it works by the results you see.

Like I said, males play an important role and to be honest I don't think I want to share more than I have already with people that think less of me.

The same people that are pro open pollination and anti line or inbreeding are also pro selfing I can never get my head around that the most extreme form of inbreeding is perfectly fine but selecting a male and female and inbreeding is not that there is the clear definition of bro science.
 

Morphote

Well-known member
Veteran
Like I said, males play an important role and to be honest I don't think I want to share more than I have already with people that think less of me.
Funny you say that. I deleted a post/reply to you in this thread. In that post I said I couldn't believe you were sharing all this. Very excited to see your males and listen to you talk about your process. I think people need to hear this, mate. I am extremely grateful for the pics you posted of your males. I only mentioned DJS benefits of reversing males because it was where he went with it. He is very much like you, hempy. As a matter of fact I think you two would get along quite well. He says he has ALL the hazes saved in seed form, untouched, from back in the 70s. I look forward to seeing him release his hazes, as well as SamS genetic library releasing. But, we will need growers who know the importance/value of males to properly preserve/improve the lines. So, you see my friend, we need you to share what you can. Time is short. I want to hear what you have to say. Please consider it.

M.
 

harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
The HzA and the HzC were at best half brothers, so how is crossing a 5-HzA with a HzC a backcross when the HzC plant pollinating the 5HzA is not one of the parent plants of the 5HzA seed.
i dont see an argument here ,, ringtail saying its back crossed into the haze line and he correct hempy your saying not bx to an individual and your correct but because its bred back into the haze family it cant be a true f1,,,,which is what i tried to show in my earlier post of different " f1s" but for me 2 of my examples are not true f1s because of breeding back into the haze family albeit thru different lines within that family,,the semantics of this mean very little nor does it take away from what nevil created ,,,its all simply different degrees of refinement what each wants to call em dont matter as long as we know the true ingredients
View attachment 19143168

To find good plants to clone you need to have access to good seed stock that will produce good plants ,,100%

Like I said, males play an important role ,,100%
 

KingRalph

Active member
I don't like selfed plants, I have other ways to test my males, and I value my selected males as much as a do a prize female.
A prized haze male is basically better than a female, since the incense allele really seems to come most strongly by male (as most terpenes often do). Why the HzA male was such a big deal. Always easy to agree with ya Hempy :)
 

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