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The Nevils Haze and Nevils Haze hybrids discussion thread.

Stoneguru

Well-known member
Why would the goal of Male C S1 be to make it identical?

For me the best results I have ever had has been to select the outliers in haze (if they already meet the quality standards)

Selecting this diversity for an Fgen is playing of the same dynamics that cause the exceptional quality of haze in the first place.

Fgen outliers has resulted in vigor and desirable traits that are equal or better than either parent when I have tried it.
 

Stoneguru

Well-known member
Since there are so many older haze heads here and with David passing I have a question for those who were actually smoking the original haze in the 60's.

Do you believe

1) haze's reputation was from a few haze clones put in production at that time. This created a consistent shared experience. Haze seed was always heterozygous and the quality always varied (We all had the same smoking experience from a few quality plants)

2) haze was like corn and 1000 seeds produced the same effect and profile. Haze was Homozygous (we all had the same experience because the seed was a 100% consistent keeper ratio)

3) We all had a lot LSD and...
 
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-maui-

Well-known member
Veteran
The genome size of cannabis is over 800 Mb so wouldn't it be more like one in 800 million not one in a thousand?
Those base are packed in 10 Chromosome pairs. 20 chomosomes of wich half are ihered from mother and half from the father Side (same plant). With Full heterozygote genome set chance for every Chromosome pair to be heterozygot again is 0.5.
0.5 Square 10 is about 1/1000.
 

goingrey

Well-known member
Those base are packed in 10 Chromosome pairs. 20 chomosomes of wich half are ihered from mother and half from the father Side (same plant). With Full heterozygote genome set chance for every Chromosome pair to be heterozygot again is 0.5.
0.5 Square 10 is about 1/1000.
Not sure I understand what you're saying.. that there is no recombination of the gene pairs? Selfing a "fast" (recessive autoflower) plant wouldn't result in any auto children?
 

-maui-

Well-known member
Veteran
Selfing a fast Version should give you 25 percent photo, 25 percent Auto and 50 percent fast Version offspring if the Auto genes are all located on the same chomosome.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
@HEMPY how many females of Male C S1 did Nevil run?

Have you read any of Nevils posts on the Haze and the work Nevil did with Haze ?

His posts on Haze can easily be found, the important ones are all in about 4 main threads over at Shantis.

Nevil made pure Haze from the females (not the first female) with both males he ran seed of those he also ran seed from the Haze C Square and none of the plants were as good as the seed he germinated.

That is why Nevil didn't like to inbreed Haze go read his posts that is clearly what he says and why he wanted to out cross the NH male out to a Thai.

Sam believed the same and had told Nevil this, Nevil didn't believe Sam, but after all the work he did on Haze Nevil came to believe Sam was right.

Nevil ran enough to evaluate them the numbers exactly, I can't remember.
 

goingrey

Well-known member
Selfing a fast Version should give you 25 percent photo, 25 percent Auto and 50 percent fast Version offspring if the Auto genes are all located on the same chomosome.
Still don't quite understand will have to look into it later. But that is pretty interesting if correct. 1 in a thousand is pretty good odds, say for recovering a lost clone from S1 backups.
 

ramse

Well-known member
Those base are packed in 10 Chromosome pairs. 20 chomosomes of wich half are ihered from mother and half from the father Side (same plant). With Full heterozygote genome set chance for every Chromosome pair to be heterozygot again is 0.5.
0.5 Square 10 is about 1/1000.
The calculation is correct on "paper", but not in reality.
This is an estimate of the mathematical probability for allelic transmission, the real possibility of obtaining a plant with the same genotype is much lower.. is a calculation that is correct as far as an simplified model of genetic transmission is concerned, it is good for illustrating a model where genes behave in a simple way but it does not reflect the real complexity... it is an ideal probability that is based only on a part of genetic transmission but does not fully consider ALL the rest
 
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-maui-

Well-known member
Veteran
In Reality you could find 2 plant in 300 seeds or non in 5000, the point was that there is a slim chance to replicate the mother in s1 seed. Finding it in such a big number of plants is another story for sure.
 

@hempy

The Haze Whisperer
Something Nevil had pointed out is that the selfed plant does not have the male contributing as it did in the previous generation. So how can you get the same genetic combination if you don't use the male side.

He also brought up something I had never heard of before, called outcrossing depression also known as unstable heterosis.

1738197483644.png
 

ramse

Well-known member
In Reality you could find 2 plant in 300 seeds or non in 5000, the point was that there is a slim chance to replicate the mother in s1 seed. Finding it in such a big number of plants is another story for sure.
it could happen... it could happen that tomorrow I play 1 euro on my betting slip and I make 200k... I play another one and... 400k!
it could be, yes!

interesting what hempy reports. already, the male side
 

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
Something Nevil had pointed out is that the selfed plant does not have the male contributing as it did in the previous generation. So how can you get the same genetic combination if you don't use the male side.

He also brought up something I had never heard of before, called outcrossing depression also known as unstable heterosis.

View attachment 19142100
The part that you highlighted is not a quote from Nevil, it's from CuZin Dave.

Nevil responded, "I don't know what you are talking about?"
 

LostTribe

Well-known member
Premium user
Veteran
What happens wen you keep stacking mostly hazeC hybrids....
Holly han grail.. View attachment 19139416
It starts spitting hazeC make up plants...this will happen over and over if you keep stacking mostly hazeC hybrids or f2 real f1hazeC hybrids.....this has akways happend since the 80s

What happens wen you add some hazeA to a mostly hazeC hybrid....
View attachment 19139419

The Doors (looks revived) aka nl5c x a/c .....HazeA starts thickening the buds up......hazeA alway had bigger larger buds in its hybrids.....its always been the case since they were made.....in the 80s
Thats a pretty extreme difference I must say.
 

-maui-

Well-known member
Veteran
With the male plant feminized and selved you would end up with 1 genetically copy of the male , two ( edit: 0.5) genetically twin sisters and one yy ( no, 0.5 😆)with otherwise fitting most likely not viable plant from 1000 seed…on paper😁.
Not sure what the unstable heterosis is about but for sure at one in a thousand it means that 999 plants will lose some of the genetic code of the original parent on paper.
 
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harvestreaper

Well-known member
Veteran
the hazes that made haze famous were f1 hybrids ,,understand how an f1 works and it makes perfect sense ,,an f1 can range from a wet fart to an h bomb in its velocity depending on the genetics of the parents ,,its impossible to recreate an f1 by inbreeding on itself in any direction ,,
 

LostTribe

Well-known member
Premium user
Veteran
You can with the right selections continue the quality into F2s, F3s and so on.

The male sides the Key and knowing how to select threw them.

View attachment 19142289

View attachment 19142290
For a long time I have wondered if using prior generation males with their own progeny would throw better results than using the "newer" generation males? Specifically I have been thinking to use pollen that was saved from my F4 C99 to backcross to my F5 as the F5 have given me the sweet phenotype I have been searching for. Worth a try and on my list of things to try.
 
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