The Lounge : Growers Round Table Discussion Thread

[Ibechillin]

I put together a thread a few months ago with a good amount of information on humic/fulvic acids and the different sources.

Heres the link:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=352265

Glad to here good things about the Humic dg and black gypsum dg, they seemed like good products.

 

[ledo]

N from salts is probably actually easier...much easier to remove it from the root zone as needed.



Thanks for sharing some real info and numbers Jidoka.



I shared that I like to run 100-140-125-(150-240)-40 and then scale that depending on plant response. Normally I just try and match P with Ca except during stretch where I up Ca while spraying Aminos (not biomin Ca). Because of running solely aminos for N you could scale those numbers to 75-105-100-(112-180)-30 for a better comparison.


With all that said, Biomin Ca is about the only organic option to replace CaNo3 or Fish for N. Besides the costs associated, have you or Avenger run Biomin as sole N/Ca source in liquids?

You ever look into BioLink products (plant vs fish based)? Are they related to Biomin?

https://www.7springsfarm.com/cal-n-5-0-0-biolink-2-5-gallons/

Arnold - I like this place in general for many, many organic products and the guy charges you what he's charged for shipping, I appreciate that. I understand you not wanting to ship across the pond but it could be a starting point for products to search that you may be able to find there more locally, regionally...

I love to use a lot of Thorvin Kelp & Alfalfa mixed into the soil. I've used it in water too, crushed it up fine powder like and just slurried it, not sure how effective that is but there are some organic options out there for you. Especially if you might be in a gorilla type situation and you can't be there often balancing shit.


Cheers

 

[growingcrazy]

You ever look into BioLink products (plant vs fish based)? Are they related to Biomin?

https://www.7springsfarm.com/cal-n-5-0-0-biolink-2-5-gallons/

Arnold - I like this place in general for many, many organic products and the guy charges you what he's charged for shipping, I appreciate that. I understand you not wanting to ship across the pond but it could be a starting point for products to search that you may be able to find there more locally, regionally...

I love to use a lot of Thorvin Kelp & Alfalfa mixed into the soil. I've used it in water too, crushed it up fine powder like and just slurried it, not sure how effective that is but there are some organic options out there for you. Especially if you might be in a gorilla type situation and you can't be there often balancing shit.


Cheers

7springs is also a great place for products. The shipping label tells you the entire reason why they are generally less expensive than CHN and others on shipping charges.



I initially started using fish for N because of the abundance locally for me to produce it myself. I'm just finding it harder and harder to deal with the smell and the need to shower after damn near every application.
There are 4 or 5 different powdered fish/soy based amino's available, most of them just don't bring anything else along with them like the biomin. Which isn't a big deal it just requires the extra addition of Ca. My goal this season was to not bring anything on the property that is in liquid form.



I am far too set in the "built not bought" mentality to turn back now.

Kelp and alfalfa are great additions at transition.

 

[Arnold.]

Thanks for the insight fellas, much appreciated.

I shared that I like to run 100-140-125-(150-240)-40 and then scale that depending on plant response.

Is that is that N-P-K (S-Ca) Mg Growing?



For my indoor peat mix I’ll go the calcium nitrate + MAP route, thanks for the suggestion Jidoka. I got chem grade CaNO3. I see the Yara version has EDTA, there won’t be other differences right? I’ll just use some fulvics or other acids to get some chelation.
What ppm or rate of NH4/MAP is easy on the soil and plants when starting to switch in flower?


Further more, according to the above posts it seems like 300 Ca is a bit out of order, especially when working Ca foliar.

My peat + leafmold mix starts with 1000ppm Mg so I don’t think it is necessary to add epsom to my liquid feeds. But it works to get my SO4 numbers up so I’ll take it.


I think the quality/resistance thing with nitrates is said because of the need for the plant to take up more water when taking up NO3 VS NH4. That is linked to ‘watery’ plants lacking in quality. I do think there is no denying watery plants are quiet common with mainstream farming methods (resulting in sub par to no taste and common chemical applications), but there is probably a lot more to it than the nitrates. I now feel organics tend to rely too much on stories and beliefs rather than facts.

But I would favor the idea of 'built not buy' or 'source locally' as well, that aspect of organics is a sound one in my eyes. I just need to get the feel on this method of fertilizing and plant deficiencies with calculating numbers, using salts etc.
Ideally I'd like to end up being able to use local resources without the need to get them all tested on their content.

 

[cannabisforjoe]

pH 8.2 for calcium

pH 8.2 for calcium

I understand why you would want to use the pH 8.2 test for organic soils that have just been limed, calcareous soils, sodic soils, mineral soils that have just been limed.

But is everyone using the pH 8.2 test for calcium on all mineral soils? Regardless of pH or recent liming?

Joe

 

[Arnold.]

I don't think everyone is using the AA8.2 Joe, like you mentioned yourself sometimes it is an adequate test, but definitely not always.

My soils had a difference between Ca AA8.2 and regular.
The differences in my peat + leafmold mix were negligible.

 

[MrBungle]

There is a small amount of NH4 in the CaNO3, but I noticed if I don't add any more NH4 the Ph slowly drifts upward... In my case I found 10% of my total N being NH4 was a sweet spot..... more and pH would drop too fast.. less and the pH would drift upwards over the course of 5 days to a week... I only use crushed oyster shell for buffer in my peat based mix.. Hope this helps

 

[jidoka]

If you have that much Mg in your soil gypsum is your best source for sulfate. If you can get soluble gyp then like 2 gms per gal

15% nh4/n is the highest amount I tell most. If you are measuring actual soil ph and willing to use micronized caco3 you can sneak higher. Do not use ro water for this

 

[MrBungle]

Hey Jidoka since we are talking N, does the plant convert the Aminos into a different form of N for uptake?

 

[slownickel]

In soils with a pH of 7 and above, it behooves one to test [email protected] for Ca.

 

[jidoka]

Hey Jidoka since we are talking N, does the plant convert the Aminos into a different form of N for uptake?

Are you talking aminos like fish or soybean fed to the soil? Or sprays?

 

[MrBungle]

Foliar spray... the ferti nitro is what I'll be using

 

[Arnold.]

Jidoka, I remember that you were searching P without K some time ago.

This might be something to look into?
They use lechitin for example.

Phospholipids_as_Plant_Growth_Regulators

In this paper the potential to use phospholipids and lysophospholipids as plant growth regulators is discussed. Recent evidence shows that phospholipids and phospholipases play an important signalling role in the normal course of plant development and in the response of plants to abiotic and biotic stress. It is apparent that phospholipase A (PLA), C (PLC) and D (PLD), lysophospholipids, and phosphatidic acid (PA) are key components of plant lipid signalling pathways. By comparison, there is very little information available on the effect of exogenously applied phospholipids on plant growth and development. This paper serves to introduce phospholipids as a novel class of plant growth regulator for use in commercial plant production. The biochemistry and physiology of phospholipids is discussed in relation to studies in which phospholipids and lysophospholipids have been applied to plants and plant parts. Implicit in the observations is that phospholipids impact the hypersensitive response and systemic acquired resistance in plants to improve crop performance and product quality. Based on published data, a scheme outlining a possible mode of action of exogenously applied phospholipids is proposed.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/227222606_Phospholipids_as_Plant_Growth_Regulators

 

[jidoka]

On ferti foliar. I don’t have the means to measure myself so I cannot say based on me own eyes

But based on nova crop sap data on other crops that kind of stuff can move into the plant as amino acid.

The advantage being that you don’t have to convert nitrate to amino which is energy intensive. That is your plant needs to use up stored energy (carbohydrates or lipids) to drive the conversion. To get from amino to protein does not reguire a whole lot of energy

 

[growingcrazy]

Thanks for the insight fellas, much appreciated.



Is that is that N-P-K (S-Ca) Mg Growing?



For my indoor peat mix I’ll go the calcium nitrate + MAP route, thanks for the suggestion Jidoka. I got chem grade CaNO3. I see the Yara version has EDTA, there won’t be other differences right? I’ll just use some fulvics or other acids to get some chelation.
What ppm or rate of NH4/MAP is easy on the soil and plants when starting to switch in flower?


Further more, according to the above posts it seems like 300 Ca is a bit out of order, especially when working Ca foliar.

My peat + leafmold mix starts with 1000ppm Mg so I don’t think it is necessary to add epsom to my liquid feeds. But it works to get my SO4 numbers up so I’ll take it.


I think the quality/resistance thing with nitrates is said because of the need for the plant to take up more water when taking up NO3 VS NH4. That is linked to ‘watery’ plants lacking in quality. I do think there is no denying watery plants are quiet common with mainstream farming methods (resulting in sub par to no taste and common chemical applications), but there is probably a lot more to it than the nitrates. I now feel organics tend to rely too much on stories and beliefs rather than facts.

But I would favor the idea of 'built not buy' or 'source locally' as well, that aspect of organics is a sound one in my eyes. I just need to get the feel on this method of fertilizing and plant deficiencies with calculating numbers, using salts etc.
Ideally I'd like to end up being able to use local resources without the need to get them all tested on their content.

The NPK example was following the NPKCaMg that jidoka posted. I would normally write it as NPKMgCa, but was following suit.


Organic is a more difficult approach...plain and simple. For pure $, salts/chems is your method unless your a die hard, such as myself.


18% NH4 max, so 18 of every 100ppm. You may need to adjust your Ca ppm between chems and organics. With organics you don't know your exact ppm in solution unless your testing them. Your numbers are best judged by reading the plant.


Also wanted to mention that I foliar at full strength with organic foliars. Hopefully someone else will let you know on chem/salts ratios for foliars.


Nice info everyone!

 

[Arnold.]

So, I think I'm almost settled on my first setup within the idea of this thread. I got an own peat/leafmold media mixed up, got the numbers for a first base feed mix and I got a rough idea on the feed planning.
Took me a lot of reading, a whole lot of questions, but only a handful of generous people sharing their experiences and spreading their knowledge.
A massive thanks to each of you!

I am sure that I made mistakes, so all this need to be tuned regularly. I hope that I will soon learn more vocabulary in the language of the plant.

The puzzle for my feed mix was a bumpy ride in which I had to make compromises. I started with the idea to make an almost organic mix, but the smell and the unavailability of calphos and amino N at decent retail prices here in Europe led the puzzle towards chemicals.
Don't hesitate to share your thoughts on it. I know it will still have flaws.
I picked the 75ppm N because the plants that I usually grow are light feeders and it is easy to add extra N to the mix.

This is the battle plan I drew for working with cuts and minimal veg:
Any thoughts?

And this the sample of 5 parts peat + 1 part leaf mold + Mearl:

I used the second method for calculating the needed inputs.


Then I mixed up some media with a 225l bale of peat like this:

225l peat * 6/5 => 270 mix without perlite => 45l leaf mold needed
*7/5 => 315 mix with perlite

1. Measure 1l peat out of the bale
2. Oven dry it
3. Volume 800ml / Weight = 187g

- 270l mix without perlite *0.8 = 229.5l (oven dry)
- 229.5l * 0.625 (50% of the widely used assumption of 1250kg/m3 mineral soil) = 135kg
( if I used the real weight without that assumption it would be around 50kg, but I allready mixed a small batch a few months ago with the same assumption and my plants were thriving so I didn't dare to go that low)

I then put the needed ppm's in hydrobuddy and calculated the needed inputs for 135l of feed. (The first time mixing I calculated it by hand as well and the results were the same)

So I added:
360g Bonemeal (7.5N, 5.2P, 0.8K)
622g TSP
138g beet vinasse (31% K + 12% S)
31.3g K-sil
13g ZnSO4
5.6g CuSO4
22g MnSO4
86.6g Elemental Sulphur (87% S) => was this a bad move?
(540g Maerl (36% Ca) was allready mixed into the peat to get a decent pH)


One thing I should really do is retest this mix, but I first need a new job contract


Although I will make plenty of mistakes, the future sure looks bright to me.
Now the weather just need to act normal. Nature here is longing for some rain. A drought like this has never been seen. I sure hope this is not what future summers will look like.

 

[growingcrazy]

What are the current N levels in your soil mix? You may be ok on additional N unless your vegging longer and using up what you have.


Here is a mix as requested. This is 2-3-1 fish, 0-12-0-7 DTE liquid bone, Kmag and Ksil as the Macros. Multiply the micros by 256 and make a solution in 1 gallon of RO and use @ 1 TBL/gallon final solution.

Micro Concentrate per 1 gallon RO (roughly for an accurate scale)


Zn 3.6

B 3.1

Mn 5.8

Cu 2.3

Mo .5

FE 14.6



pH to 6.2-6.5 for peat base mediums.

 

[Arnold.]

Good question on the N. Leads already to a flaw in my mixing, I did not realize I got N data as well with the K3 test. There was 59ppm in the sample and I added 200ppm with the bonemeal so that's 259ppm total under the (huge) assumption I did my fertilizing right.

What do you mean with additional N? Leave it out of the feed entirely? or that 75ppm can suffice?


Thanks for showing the example of an organic feed mix. But I'm afraid I still encounter the same problems with this mix: liquid bone meal is not available here. I can give bone meal a vinegar soak, but in the end the fishmix and the bonemeal will smell too much for my indoor setup. I have to think about the people I live with as well, the smell is too plangent. Outdoors I'd favor an organic mix similar to that one.


What is your opinion on Fe and Al for my situation? The media has excess of both. Should I add those two to the feed solution for the sake of the balance? Or keep it out like the Mg?


Another question is about the TSP, I now assumed the Ca effect of TSP is negligible. Does someone have enough experience with TSP to know if it really brings that much (17%) available Ca to the mix?

 

[growingcrazy]

The feed mix was for other members, sorry for the confusion!


That is a lot of Nitrogen. Get some plants into the mix and water them correctly and start with that. Maybe some small feeds to get things cycling. Watch the plant and see if a deficiency shows up, if not, water correctly and you will do well.


If you can get a fine ground bone meal you can make a liquid bone meal on your own. very fine 2-14-0 @ 670 grams to 1 gallon h20. Boil on the stove, let cool and strain. DTE uses a 20 mesh screen which is rather large. I use a 40 mesh screen on my homebrew liquid bone.

 

[Arnold.]

Thanks for the recipe of the liquid bone meal. Sounds like something I will make. How long can you keep this before it starts to live and smell?
The calcium of that mix comes from the liquid bone meal right? Do you notice a calcium effect with this mix?
Cause I remember that you said you don't count on the calcium that fertilizers other than carbonate or gypsum bring when balancing soil or peat.

Can you explain why 259 ppm N is a lot when I have 1400ppm P and K when you have time? Don't get me wrong, I know what you are saying will be right, but I'd like to learn by asking why.
A guess: Does N not 'bind' to the humus and clay complex like the others, but rather stay in solution?
I remember you saying that for you N is a class on its own.
And what's a better number to shoot for when working with light N feeders? 100-150?