Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory

[EclipseFour20]

...The codex DE is fun, but I ponder salt-water derived which requires a saline regulator, uh oh! NEVER MIND! I swear I did not just say salt!!!

Ahh....not to worry, Fossil Shell Flour is 100% fresh water sourced, zero NaCl.

From PermaGuard's website http://www.perma-guard.com/fossil-shell-flour.html: "Diatomaceous Earth packaged under our FOSSIL SHELL FLOUR® label comes from an extremely pure fresh water deposit of the diatom Aulacoseira from a deposit created in the Miocene epoch."

I buy 50lb bags of PermaGuard for less than $30 at my local feed store.

For those with some misgivings or are curious about Fossil Shell Flour, the attached pdf files contain detailed analysis data...and for a very informative perspective of plants and silica I suggest downloading this 7.6 meg pdf file: www.privilifesciences.com/download/A-review-of-Silicon-and-its-benefits-for-plants.pdf. Although it is published by AgriPower (Aussie DE company) it does contain a wealth of information including a brief discussion on siliconization and Plant Available Silica.

There are sooo many paths to the same destination, IMHO--there really is no "wrong way"...there is "your way", "my way" and sometimes we "just disagree".

 

[Granger2]

Eclipse,
Where do you get your Fossil Shell Flower? How much do you use to amend an indoor soil per gal or cu. ft.? How soon does it release in a rich no till soil. How long does it keep releasing? Thanks. -granger

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Ahh....not to worry, Fossil Shell Flour is 100% fresh water sourced, zero NaCl.

From PermaGuard's website http://www.perma-guard.com/fossil-shell-flour.html: "Diatomaceous Earth packaged under our FOSSIL SHELL FLOUR® label comes from an extremely pure fresh water deposit of the diatom Aulacoseira from a deposit created in the Miocene epoch."

I buy 50lb bags of PermaGuard for less than $30 at my local feed store.

For those with some misgivings or are curious about Fossil Shell Flour, the attached pdf files contain detailed analysis data...and for a very informative perspective of plants and silica I suggest downloading this 7.6 meg pdf file: www.privilifesciences.com/download/A-review-of-Silicon-and-its-benefits-for-plants.pdf. Although it is published by AgriPower (Aussie DE company) it does contain a wealth of information including a brief discussion on siliconization and Plant Available Silica.

There are sooo many paths to the same destination, IMHO--there really is no "wrong way"...there is "your way", "my way" and sometimes we "just disagree".

The difference between codex-grade DE and filter-grade or salt-water derived is the process. Codex grade is primarily uncalcinated and a proven insecticide.

Uncalcined DE typically contains around 1% Crystalline Silica. When pressurized or processed (Calcined) above 1,832oF (1,000oC), some of the Amorphous Silica is converted to Crystalline Silica in the form of Cristobalite. Calcined DE can contain anywhere from 1% to 75% Cristobalite.

The mineral cristobalite being a high-temperature polymorph of silica has the same chemical formula as Silicon dioxide. I realize sometimes what I mention is counter-intuitive, but I'm not coming from a place where I'm dealing with problems and desire a solution to save a plant, rather I'm concerned with their genetic makeup as relative to the soils in which they evolved. We can source cristobalite from volcanic rock, but the redundant challenge is in alkali balance. You can also get to cristobalite via rice husk ash.

 

[EclipseFour20]

MJ...there is more to it than what you think.

As we both know, the term "Amorphous Silica" in this particular instance means "not crystalline or without a crystalline structure". Potassium Silicate is in the form of a "crystalline structure" and must go through a "siliconization" process before it can become PAS (which can take weeks). The Fossil Shell Flour I purchase is less than 0.5% crystalline silica--not 1% as you indicated (please look at those attachments in my above post).

Just for the record, the consistency of Fossil Shell Flour is almost like talcum powder--extremely fine and not "processed" (heat treated); nothing like the calcined diatom variety which is chunky and almost rock-like structure. Oh yeah, I buy FSF for 60 cents/lb and is rather affordable--whereas rice husk ash--if available is about $2/lb. Maybe the prices are different for you.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Eclipse,
Where do you get your Fossil Shell Flower? How much do you use to amend an indoor soil per gal or cu. ft.? How soon does it release in a rich no till soil. How long does it keep releasing? Thanks. -granger

Feed store is my source, 50 pounds for less than $30. I mix FSF along with my liming agents at a ridiculous rate of about 1 kilo per 20 gallons of grow medium. The unique absorbing and "caking" characteristics are very nice and keep the soil structure to remain porous (air). From a number of field studies it appears there is about 25% loss/consumption of the silica per year--so when I "reclaim" my grow medium I add back another 25%. I would say about 3-5 years before all of the Si would have been consumed if you made a single application of DE in the field, so we are talking something that "keeps giving" for years. Remember, in the real world, Si in the soil can be 50-70%--so I don't think "Si toxicity" is something to worry....especially when using the "amorphous silica" variety.

Go here for some of trials conducted by Agripower (sometimes this links does not work...but tonight it did). http://www.agripower.com.au/#!trial-sheets-f/cmzi. Field application rates, depending on crop is 300-800 kg/ha.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Codex DE is rad and a super way to keep unsavory larvae from happening. I think what I mention in regards to cristobalite is better explained in the Handbook of Soil Sciences: Properties and Processes - "Occurrence of Neogenetic Silica in Soils".

 

[Team Microbe]

So Eclipse, are you saying that fossil shell powder is a better alternative to Potassium Silicate?

 

[Granger2]

Thanks, Eclipse. -granger

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Nitrogen Fixation by Legumes

Guide A-129
W.C. Lindemann, Soil Microbiologist
C.R. Glover, Extension Agronomist
College of Agriculture, Consumer and Environmental Sciences New Mexico State University

Nitrogen Return to the Soil and Other Crops

The amount of nitrogen returned to the soil during or after a legume crop can be misleading. Almost all of the nitrogen fixed goes directly into the plant. Little leaks into the soil for a neighboring nonlegume plant. However, nitrogen eventually returns to the soil for a neighboring plant when vegetation (roots, leaves, fruits) of the legume dies and decomposes.

When the grain from a grain legume crop is harvested, little nitrogen is returned for the following crop. Most of the nitrogen fixed during the season is removed from the field. The stalks, leaves and roots of grain legumes, such as soybeans and beans contain about the same concentration of nitrogen as found in non-legume crop residue. In fact, the residue from a corn crop contains more nitrogen than the residue from a bean crop, simply because the corn crop has more residue.

A perennial or forage legume crop only adds significant nitrogen for the following crop if the entire biomass (stems, leaves, roots) is incorporated into the soil. If a forage is cut and removed from the field, most of the nitrogen fixed by the forage is removed. Roots and crowns add little soil nitrogen compared with the aboveground biomass.

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_a/A129/

 

[EclipseFour20]

So Eclipse, are you saying that fossil shell powder is a better alternative to Potassium Silicate?

YES.

This study, "Silicon Supplements Affect Horticultural Traits of Greenhouse-produced Ornamental Sunflowers" (4 pages), compared "rice husk ash" and "potassium silicate" applications and concluded that "rice husk ash" applications was a superior source of Si. http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/1/236.full.pdf

"Abstract. In greenhouse production, most floricultural crops are cultivated in soilless
substrates, which often supply limited amounts of plant-available silicon (Si). The goal of
this study was to determine the effects of Si supplementation on greenhouse-produced
ornamental sunflower (Helianthus annuus L. ‘Ring of Fire’). Potassium silicate (KSiO3)
substrate incorporation or weekly substrate drenches, sodium silicate (NaSiO3) foliar
applications, and rice husk ash substrate incorporation were used as Si supplements.
Silicon content of Si-treated plants increased compared with untreated controls.
Depending on the source and concentration of silicon supplied, several horticultural
traits were improved as a result of Si supplementation. Thick, straight stems, increased
flower and stem diameters, and increased height were observed in some of the
treatments, upgrading sunflower quality compared with untreated controls. However,
growth abnormalities were observed when concentrations of 100 and 200 mgL–1 Si were
supplied as KSiO3 substrate drenches. In these treatments, plants appeared stunted with
deformed flowers and were delayed in flowering. Consequently, Si supplementation
effects on greenhouse-produced sunflowers can vary from beneficial to detrimental
depending on the applied source and concentration."

Conclusion:
"Based on this study, the effects of Si
supplements on greenhouse-produced sunflowers
can vary from beneficial to detrimental
depending on the applied source and
concentration. The most beneficial Si forms
and concentrations for sunflower greenhouse
production were 100 gm–3 Si supplied as rice
husk ash, 140 gm–3 Si supplied as hydrous
KSiO3 incorporated into the substrate, 100
mgL–1 Si supplied as NaSiO3 weekly foliar
application, and 50 mgL–1 Si supplied as
weekly substrate drenches of KSiO3."

So let's start here...organic (rice husk ash) vs synthetic (potassium silicate)--who won this round?

 

[GHGrower]

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_a/A129/

Perhaps this would be best understood if I laid out an explanation of the process in a garden setting. I don't have much experience growing cannabis yet, but I've been growing plants for close to 20 years, covering a wide range of plant phenotypes, among which include humulus lupus and other terpene-producing crops, flowers, vegetables, and 'other'.

Using legumes as a green fertilizer is not a new concept, and the best-practice methods are well known. A legume left to decompose in the open air will lose most of it's nitrogen to the atmosphere. In order to effectively utilize the available nitrogen in a legume in other plants, the decomposing plant material must be smothered by organic matter so as to allow the soil to adsorb as much nitrogen gassing out of the plant as possible.

This is primarily accomplished by two methods. One is the till-under method, in which the topsoil is simply flipped over. In my experience, this process results in the highest eventual breakdown (measured by lab soil analysis), but the damage to soil life makes decomposition time sit at around 6-8 weeks before chelation takes place in measurable levels. This is why most outdoor garden guides say "cover crop in fall, till in March, plant in May".

Another method is the no-till method, in which the plant is mowed down at regular intervals, but the plant crown is left intact to allow the plant to regrow. What follows falls into the realm of the physics Law of Conservation of Energy. Along those lines, a plant will not utilize more of it's root system than necessary, and unused portions of the root system will die off so the plant doesn't waste hydrogen ions exchanging for more nutrients than it needs (the nitrogen fixed in the roots is atmospheric in origin and doesn't depend on root mass or availability of nitrogen in the soil to form). This process results in a boost of nitrogen (less so than till-under per instance), and this boost occurs in 4-6 weeks due to undisturbed soil microbes, and as the plant remains alive, can happen at regular intervals. If one mows down clover every week, within 4-6 weeks, they'll start to see nitrogen levels in the soil increase on a weekly basis, confirmable with soil analysis. In order to prevent the legumes from losing their nitrogen above the soil after being cut, they get mulched under with a low-nitrogen, high-carbon plant material, such as dried grasses. The carbon gives nitrogen something to bond with (which it will happily do so; the covalent bond of carbon and nitrogen is hands down one of the most common bonds in organic chemistry).

Following the above information, a suitably large container growing inoculated clover or any other legume will begin introducing nitrogen to soil after 4-6 weeks if mowed down regularly and mulched under a carbon source.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Really nice post GHGrower.

In my readings they did mention the high energy costs to a plant in maintaining active root nodules, and that when not needed the plant will abandon them.

I'm also interested in mulching vetch for it's allopathic anti-fusarium properties. I wonder if the process could somehow be done as a liquid compost brew and applied as a tea? Sounds like any fixed nitrogen in the mix might be vented off if this process involved a bubbler to keep it aerobic.

http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2010/vetch/

 

[GHGrower]

Really nice post GHGrower.

In my readings they did mention the high energy costs to a plant in maintaining active root nodules, and that when not needed the plant will abandon them.

I'm also interested in mulching vetch for it's allopathic anti-fusarium properties. I wonder if the process could somehow be done as a liquid compost brew and applied as a tea? Sounds like any fixed nitrogen in the mix might be vented off if this process involved a bubbler to keep it aerobic.

http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2010/vetch/

Personally, I love vetch, because it not only fixes nitrogen, but also grows aggressively with runners. My favorite cover crop blend is Austrian Field Pea (very compact little plant), dutch white clover, crimson clover, and hairy vetch. Territorial Seed sells a plethora of cover crop seed by the pound, and it's all fantastic quality. Check em out.

That's a neat notion. I wish I knew the mechanism through which the anti-fusarium properties of vetch are employed so I could way in on your hypothesis.

Regarding teas, I'm experimenting with that right now! I found a patch of dandelion (Nitrogen, Calcium, Silica and Sulfur) and lambs quarter (Calcium, Silica, Sulphur, Magnesium, Potassium, Phosphate) growing out in the backyard, so chopped them all down to knuckle-sized chunks, tossed them into the microbulator with a teaspoon of molasses and set it to bubble for a few weeks. I'll keep checking on it every few days with a microscope and try it out once the cellular matter has properly denatured and try it out on a variety of plants.

 

[Granger2]

Called around this a.m. Looks like all the feed stores have food grade DE, or Fossil Shell Flour. Commonly used for livestock for nutrition and internal parasites. I mone get me some. I think me and my livestock [dogs] could benefit too. Read good things about its nutritional benefits. Thanks, Eclipse. Good luck. -granger

 

[EclipseFour20]

Called around this a.m. Looks like all the feed stores have food grade DE, or Fossil Shell Flour. Commonly used for livestock for nutrition and internal parasites. I mone get me some. I think me and my livestock [dogs] could benefit too. Read good things about its nutritional benefits. Thanks, Eclipse. Good luck. -granger

You have a real "multipurpose" item there--

DE absorbs heavy metals, pesticide residues, etc (soil remediation)
Pyrethrins bind to and are stabilized by DE (great for soil pesticide applications)
DE is an anti-caking agent (animal feed)
DE is a contact pesticide (ants, spiders, soil critters, etc)
DE is 89-99% soluble amorphous SiO2 (which we all know by now...lol)
DE has 28 trace elements (food and agriculture nutrient)
DE is pH neutral (soil amendment)
DE has high CEC capabilities (agriculture)
DE has high absorbent properties (water holding) and high thermal properties (fire barrier),
DE prevents leaching of NPK fertility from soil (requiring less NPK applications)
DE diatomites can remove double stranded DNA but not RNA or proteins (high tech)
DE is a natural dewormer (livestock, pets, etc)
DE is "organic" and OMRI approved (agriculture)
DE mixes with water and can be sprayed (field application & pest control)

Snake oil?...naahh. IMHO, just a good all around item to use.

 

[GHGrower]

DE is 89-99% soluble amorphous SiO2 (which we all know by now...lol)

All of the sources I found when I started reading up on fossil shell flour on google scholar specifically state that amorphous SiO2 is not water soluble save under pressure at 320 C, and is regarded for it's hydrophobic and abrasive properties (#1 use is as an abrasive in toothpaste that wont solubilize). Is there an implied contextual use here to make it soluble that I'm missing somewhere?

 

[EclipseFour20]

All of the sources I found when I started reading up on fossil shell flour on google scholar specifically state that amorphous SiO2 is not water soluble save under pressure at 320 C, and is regarded for it's hydrophobic and abrasive properties (#1 use is as an abrasive in toothpaste that wont solubilize). Is there an implied contextual use here to make it soluble that I'm missing somewhere?

Perhaps the chemistry says one thing, but from studies where DE/FSF was analyzed both "total and water soluble Si" were detected. Let me pull some good studies from my library but give me a day or so, I am in the middle monster project--but for the moment check out the chart and discussion at this website: http://www.3jorganics.co.nz/#!faq/ccjp

I know if you google: "water soluble" "fossil shell flour" there are quite a few water soluble claims by hundreds of spinmeisters, but like you, I prefer science. Give me a day or so and I will share with you what I have.

LOL...it did not take me too long to find a nice gem, read what Savant et al wrote in, "Silicon Management and Sustainable Rice Production". It explains how amorphous Si is soluble in soil
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/251449083_Silicon_Management_and_Sustainable_Rice_Production Shitty copy (not searchable) but is readable....but more importantly, this work is cited in almost all Si research.

 

[GHGrower]

I know if you google: "water soluble" "fossil shell flour" there are quite a few water soluble claims by hundreds of spinmeisters, but like you, I prefer science. Give me a day or so and I will share with you what I have.

Thanks, I await your results!

The numbers posted above are direct from the manufacturer, so I can't help regarding that with the same credibility as LED light manufacturers and their datasheets. I did find that treating SioC2 with acids will form Sioc4, which is the super-soluble (liquid glass), but the conversion process isn't something I can see happening in soil in a short period. I don't mean to be so stringent, but I'm trying to pool data to begin building a methodology, and need a good core of citable sources before I can consider something statistically significant (same reason I exclude aloe vera and recently, coconut water) enough to warrant experimentation, especially given the nature of cannabis and it's tendency to accumulate compounds and heavy metals, warranting the best-practice stance that no compounds should be used on cannabis unless it has been thoroughly researched first. That alone led me to seek different trace mineral resources than azomite for cannabis cultivation, as much as I love the stuff.

 

[Granger2]

Yeah, I have most of a 50 lb bag of Azomite that I stopped using cuzza the fluoride alone. Mass amounts. -granger

 

[The English Cut]

Azomite is rock dust, right? I tried to find something similar over here but failed. However I stopped worrying about it and even got a bit smug after I saw these vids comparing rock dust to leaves for adding minerals to soil. Worth a look if you're wanting to save money and be more environmentally sustainable too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkOwPAPDAZ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf2t8HxJ7T4

Also I've been ingesting DE for a while now since one of my kids had worms, a tablespoon per day stirred into a little water and a few drops of lemon juice actually tastes quite nice and sherbert-like. Supposedly it's a good intestinal cleanser too.