Team Microbe's Living Soil Laboratory

[Team Microbe]

Quick update

Quick update

I've been bringing in some companion plants to join the final 10 girls that made the cut for the flowering tent, so far I've got comfrey, aloe vera, and some holy basil that's just rooting out (behind the aloe)

The comfrey doesn't have as big of roots as I thought it would at this stage, I was worried about it becoming root bound in it's 2 gallon pot before June 1st hit. Wrong! I still transplanted this into a 5 gallon pot though, it's only seen seedling soil thus far and a few compost teas. Should really take hold when it hits the richer soil I use for my no-till containers.

Day 3 and the clover is beginning to pop up! You can always tell because the entire top layer begins to bubble up as the sprouts below push their way through the mulch layer. I like to brush it aside a bit to make way for the new growth. Totally unnecessary, but that's just how I operate sometimes lol

Jack Diesel lookin humble this week, but not for long - she'll catch up to the rest of the crew in no time. Today is coconut water, aloe vera, and silica day. WOOT WOOT!

Silver Lotus #1 didn't show any signs of transplant shock, I was kind of surprised. Just goes to show that brewing malted barley for 18 hours doesn't risk producing A. Acid after all! I'll still cut it back to 8 hours or so... just to stay on the safe side. BAS recommends 12-24 hours.

 

[MJtheIndicator]

Today is coconut water, aloe vera, and silica day. WOOT WOOT!

What is the silica source?

 

[Team Microbe]

Potassium silicate from BAS - it's labeled as Agsil16H

 

[EclipseFour20]

Ahhh....it is good to see "organic cultivators" toss away the "book" and use innocent "non-organic inputs"....like potassium silicate, not withstanding that excellent organic/OMRI silica sources are available for soil applications (Fossil Shell Flour).

Nothing like incorporating some of the best practices from ALL disciplines! Guess even some of the "organic fanatic" gurus are no longer "100% pure". As long as everyone stays below the 5% "non-organic" threshold, then we should be able to use the term "organic" to describe our product--just cannot label it as "100% organic", right? (CFR §205.301(b)).

 

[heady blunts]

aqueous potassium silicate is a mined mineral product like limestone or other rock dusts. it's approved for organic food production by the USDA.

i have not yet come across a product labeled "fossil shell powder." i have used oyster shell powder and diatomaceous earth, both which are technically fossil shell powders.

there are plant based silica sources, nettle, comfrey, and horsetail come to mind. silica can also be found in greensand, basalt, and azomite.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057539

 

[GHGrower]

I think fossil shell flour is the same thing as diatomaceous earth. I also don't think it is water soluble like potassium silicate, but makes for a good soil amendment. I think both are useful, but I don't think on a can take the job of the other.

 

[EclipseFour20]

what book is being tossed?

aqueous potassium silicate is a mined mineral product like limestone or other rock dusts. it's approved for organic food production by the usda.

i have not yet come across a product labeled "fossil shell powder." i have used oyster shell powder and diatomaceous earth, both which are technically fossil shell powders.

there are plant based silica sources, nettle, comfrey, and horsetail come to mind. silica can also be found in greensand, basalt, and azomite.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057539

Yep, thanks for helping me prove my point that there are numerous sources of "organic silica"--but unfortunately, potassium silicate (aqueous or not) is banned. BTW, Fossil Shell Flour by weight is over 89% amorphous silicate--a very high percentage of silica for an organic input. Think "food grade" fresh water Diatomaceous Earth.

As for "tossing the book", I direct you to this report http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629

The NOSB concluded--

Clearly, potassium silicate is a synthetic because, although the potassium carbonate and sand are mined, they require very high
temperature treatment to form potassium silicate, and therefore a significant contribution of fossil fuel or fossil fuel replacement
energy.
As a fertilizer, potassium silicate is highly soluble (generally a trait that puts a material in the prohibited grouping) and ‘jolts’ the
soil with a rapid release of nutrients, even though the effects of a rapid availability of potassium and silica is not believed to have
nearly as profound an impact as other materials such as sodium nitrate (an allowed non-synthetic material, with restrictions). As
a source of potassium or silicate for soil fertility, there are several effective non-synthetic, low soluble alternatives (lack of
alternatives can mitigate other prohibited traits). Although synthetic silicates of metallic micronutrients have been allowed, they
are not allowed as a source of silica, and probably should remain so: the reason for allowing these synthetic metallic silicates is
the lack of acceptable materials, not that they are compatible with organic philosophy. The weight of the above evidence puts
potassium silicate as a fertilizer in the prohibited column.
As a fungicide, the same concerns about synthetics are present. However the amounts used are much smaller, there is no ‘jolt’ to
the soil and, most importantly, effective alternatives are not available. Unfortunately, there is not convincing evidence that
potassium silicate will be even as effective as the alternatives, and its mode of action is not understood. These are important
considerations. Sulfur and copper are allowed synthetics because, although they have some non-target toxicity and environmental
troubles, they have a well-understood mode of action and breakdown products, have been used by organic farmers for a long
time, and are proven effective. Potassium silicate does not have significant non-target toxicities, environmental risks or
breakdown products, but does have a poorly understood mode of action, a short history of use, and has not been proven widely
effective.

Recommendations to the NOSB:
The substance should be listed as a prohibited synthetic on the National List.

And here is what OMRI has to say--

http://www.omri.org/simple-gml-search/results/Potassium%20Silicate,%20aqueous

Potassium Silicate, aqueous
Status: Allowed with Restrictions
Class: Crop Pest, Weed, and Disease Control
Origin: Synthetic
Description:
CAS # 1312-76-1. The silica used in the manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced from naturally occuring sand. May be used as an insecticide or disease control if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met, which require the use of preventative, mechanical, physical, and other pest, weed, and disease management practices.


Not for "soil fertility"...hmm but OK for use as a "fungicide", "insecticide", or for "disease control". Anyone but me see a common theme here?

Such a slippery slope I say: If today, "potassium silicate" is permitted (throw the "organic book" away)--then how long will it be before "potassium phosphate" (0-50-30) will be accepted? Same logic--same argument, just change the "last name" from "silicate" to "phosphate".

For the record, I do use Potassium Silicate as part of my "soil fertility" program--along with Fossil Shell Flour, but--then again, I DO NOT HOLD MYSELF OUT AS 100% ORGANIC. A little honesty goes along way in my book.

 

[heady blunts]

hmm that's a fair point about fossil fuels in the production.

fwiw i use it as a foliar and not a soil drench.

the NOSB TAP reviewers did not agree BTW.

here's a cute list of synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production:

§205.601 Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.
In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may be used in organic crop production: Provided, That, use of such substances do not contribute to contamination of crops, soil, or water. Substances allowed by this section, except disinfectants and sanitizers in paragraph (a) and those substances in paragraphs (c), (j), (k), and (l) of this section, may only be used when the provisions set forth in §205.206(a) through (d) prove insufficient to prevent or control the target pest.

(a) As algicide, disinfectants, and sanitizer, including irrigation system cleaning systems.

(1) Alcohols.

(i) Ethanol.

(ii) Isopropanol.

(2) Chlorine materials—For pre-harvest use, residual chlorine levels in the water in direct crop contact or as water from cleaning irrigation systems applied to soil must not exceed the maximum residual disinfectant limit under the Safe Drinking Water Act, except that chlorine products may be used in edible sprout production according to EPA label directions.

(i) Calcium hypochlorite.

(ii) Chlorine dioxide.

(iii) Sodium hypochlorite.

(3) Copper sulfate—for use as an algicide in aquatic rice systems, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to those which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

(4) Hydrogen peroxide.

(5) Ozone gas—for use as an irrigation system cleaner only.

(6) Peracetic acid—for use in disinfecting equipment, seed, and asexually propagated planting material. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(a) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

(7) Soap-based algicide/demossers.

(8) Sodium carbonate peroxyhydrate (CAS #-15630-89-4)—Federal law restricts the use of this substance in food crop production to approved food uses identified on the product label.

(b) As herbicides, weed barriers, as applicable.

(1) Herbicides, soap-based—for use in farmstead maintenance (roadways, ditches, right of ways, building perimeters) and ornamental crops.

(2) Mulches.

(i) Newspaper or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

(ii) Plastic mulch and covers (petroleum-based other than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)).

(iii) Biodegradable biobased mulch film as defined in §205.2. Must be produced without organisms or feedstock derived from excluded methods.

(c) As compost feedstocks—Newspapers or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.

(d) As animal repellents—Soaps, ammonium—for use as a large animal repellant only, no contact with soil or edible portion of crop.

(e) As insecticides (including acaricides or mite control).

(1) Ammonium carbonate—for use as bait in insect traps only, no direct contact with crop or soil.

(2) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

(3) Boric acid—structural pest control, no direct contact with organic food or crops.

(4) Copper sulfate—for use as tadpole shrimp control in aquatic rice production, is limited to one application per field during any 24-month period. Application rates are limited to levels which do not increase baseline soil test values for copper over a timeframe agreed upon by the producer and accredited certifying agent.

(5) Elemental sulfur.

(6) Lime sulfur—including calcium polysulfide.

(7) Oils, horticultural—narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

(8) Soaps, insecticidal.

(9) Sticky traps/barriers.

(10) Sucrose octanoate esters (CAS #s—42922-74-7; 58064-47-4)—in accordance with approved labeling.

(f) As insect management. Pheromones.

(g) As rodenticides. Vitamin D3.

(h) As slug or snail bait. Ferric phosphate (CAS # 10045-86-0).

(i) As plant disease control.

(1) Aqueous potassium silicate (CAS #-1312-76-1)—the silica, used in the manufacture of potassium silicate, must be sourced from naturally occurring sand.

(2) Coppers, fixed—copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper oxychloride, includes products exempted from EPA tolerance, Provided, That, copper-based materials must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation in the soil and shall not be used as herbicides.

(3) Copper sulfate—Substance must be used in a manner that minimizes accumulation of copper in the soil.

(4) Hydrated lime.

(5) Hydrogen peroxide.

(6) Lime sulfur.

(7) Oils, horticultural, narrow range oils as dormant, suffocating, and summer oils.

(8) Peracetic acid—for use to control fire blight bacteria. Also permitted in hydrogen peroxide formulations as allowed in §205.601(i) at concentration of no more than 6% as indicated on the pesticide product label.

(9) Potassium bicarbonate.

(10) Elemental sulfur.

(11) Streptomycin, for fire blight control in apples and pears only until October 21, 2014.

(12) Tetracycline, for fire blight control in apples and pears only until October 21, 2014.

(j) As plant or soil amendments.

(1) Aquatic plant extracts (other than hydrolyzed)—Extraction process is limited to the use of potassium hydroxide or sodium hydroxide; solvent amount used is limited to that amount necessary for extraction.

(2) Elemental sulfur.

(3) Humic acids—naturally occurring deposits, water and alkali extracts only.

(4) Lignin sulfonate—chelating agent, dust suppressant.

(5) Magnesium sulfate—allowed with a documented soil deficiency.

(6) Micronutrients—not to be used as a defoliant, herbicide, or desiccant. Those made from nitrates or chlorides are not allowed. Soil deficiency must be documented by testing.

(i) Soluble boron products.

(ii) Sulfates, carbonates, oxides, or silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt.

(7) Liquid fish products—can be pH adjusted with sulfuric, citric or phosphoric acid. The amount of acid used shall not exceed the minimum needed to lower the pH to 3.5.

(8) Vitamins, B1, C, and E.

(9) Sulfurous acid (CAS # 7782-99-2) for on-farm generation of substance utilizing 99% purity elemental sulfur per paragraph (j)(2) of this section.

(k) As plant growth regulators. Ethylene gas—for regulation of pineapple flowering.

(l) As floating agents in postharvest handling.

(1) Lignin sulfonate.

(2) Sodium silicate—for tree fruit and fiber processing.

(m) As synthetic inert ingredients as classified by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), for use with nonsynthetic substances or synthetic substances listed in this section and used as an active pesticide ingredient in accordance with any limitations on the use of such substances.

(1) EPA List 4—Inerts of Minimal Concern.

(2) EPA List 3—Inerts of unknown toxicity—for use only in passive pheromone dispensers.

Seed preparations. Hydrogen chloride (CAS # 7647-01-0)—for delinting cotton seed for planting.

(o) As production aids. Microcrystalline cheesewax (CAS #'s 64742-42-3, 8009-03-08, and 8002-74-2)-for use in log grown mushroom production. Must be made without either ethylene-propylene co-polymer or synthetic colors.

(p)-(z) [Reserved]

[65 FR 80637, Dec. 21, 2000, as amended at 68 FR 61992, Oct. 31, 2003; 71 FR 53302 Sept. 11, 2006; 72 FR 69572, Dec. 10, 2007; 75 FR 38696, July 6, 2010; 75 FR 77524, Dec. 13, 2010; 77 FR 8092, Feb. 14, 2012; 77 FR 33298, June 6, 2012; 77 FR 45907, Aug. 2, 2012; 78 FR 31821, May 28, 2013; 79 FR 58663, Sept. 30, 2014]

 

[heady blunts]

also most fish hydrolysate is preserved with phosphoric acid

 

[EclipseFour20]

Yep...lots of synthetic "exceptions"--but they have all been vented, reasoned and approved. Shouldn't "honesty" and "truth in advertising" be part one's "organic" business model?

BTW--here is a snippet from PQ Corp's website:

"...AgSil® potassium silicates serve as fertilizers for use in turf and crop applications as a source of soluble potassium and silicon. Sil-MATRIX® potassium silicate is an EPA-registered and OMRI Organic certified biochemical pesticide for preventative control of powdery mildew and control of mites and aphids on high-value crops such as wine grapes, strawberries, blueberries, and others."

I understand the "complication"--you are thinking, believing, behaving and adhering strictly to certain "rules" so your crop can be "100% organic". EXCEPT when it comes to "silica fertility", those "rules" don't count....rather, "thems just guidelines" (pirate voice); even though there are plenty of "organic" Si alternatives available--it is OK to skip this rule (use synthetics) and still call yourself "100% organic". Yep, funny "complication" for sure!

 

[heady blunts]

i feel like we're in agreement but all those quotation marks really give your posts a combative vibe.

 

[EclipseFour20]

Not combative here---just offering a bit of constructive criticism (like everyone else).

When someone hears or learns something that challenges what they have been "taught to be true", it can make some feel "uncomfortable"--is if someone was "holding their feet to the fire". Sometimes emotions take over and instead of discussing the merits of the message, the strategy of "attack the messenger" ensues.

I believe there is an obscure little known organic governing body somewhere in Europe that allows potassium silicate as a fertility input...but being in the minority does not make you a "majority".

 

[Team Microbe]

Holy Rhodi

Holy Rhodi

Edit: Eclipse420 you can now rest assured my friend -

"This material is not persistent in aquatic systems, but its high pH when undiluted or unneutralized is acutely harmful to aquatic life. Diluted material rapidly depolymerizes to yield dissolved silica in a form that is indistinguishable from natural dissolved silica. It does not contribute to BOD. This material does not bioaccumulate except in species that use silica as a structural material such as diatoms and siliceous sponges. Where abnormally low natural silica concentrations exist (less than 0.1 ppm), dissolved silica may be a limiting nutrient for diatoms and a few other aquatic algal species. However, the addition of excess dissolved silica over the limiting concentration will not stimulate the growth of diatom populations; their growth rate is independent of silica concentration once the limiting concentration is exceeded. Neither silica nor potassium will appreciably bioconcentrate up the food chain." - Agsil16H PDF




Holy Rhodi

Well I went back out to the breeding patch this week where I bred the Holy Rhodi's last summer (Church x Purple Rhodi). All of the root balls were pretty much decomposed already! It's only been 6 months since I harvested the seeds...

There were about 50 little seedlings popping up! They must have been vigorous enough to sit through the winter until the time was right to pop. It's pretty early still though, our last frost doesn't usually come until the end of May so I'm debating on going out to snatch a few to bring home with me. I'd love to back cross with some of the babies that pulled through for me... it's gotta be a good sign or resilience, don't you think?

Here's the first bud shot of a purple pheno one of my testers grew out... he told me to hunt for this pheno and stabilize it because it's a keeper. He reported the other (Church dom) phenos were unstable still (hermies), and that they were more yielders than resin producers. This is why I'm glad Purple Rhodi was the stud, I was hoping he would pass on some resin production/terps/quality to the Church seeing as it's more of a commercial strain. My goal here was to keep the Church's resistant qualities while improving the quality.

We'll see what happens this summer :yay:

 

[EclipseFour20]

TM--not worried about the hazards AgSil, just suggesting it is not approved for "organic" soil/plant fertility applications. And if one were to apply the same logic/argument allowing AgSil -> Potassium Silicate to be OK for those that are otherwise "100% Organic", then why shouldn't Potassium Phosphate receive the same treatment?

I am NOT 100% ORGANIC (maybe 96-98%) and I prefer GrowMore's "SiloTec" which is derived from BOTH "potassium silicate" and "monosilicic acid", paid $30 for 2.5 gallons (like two years ago) and use 1ml/gallon for soil fertility, 15ml/gallon for foliar. I prefer being genuine and above board when I do biz, easier that way...and that is the way this old fucker rolls (no reason to burn bridges with lies and deceit).

 

[Granger2]

> Potassium Silicate to be OK for those that are otherwise "100% Organic", then why shouldn't Potassium Phosphate receive the same >treatment?

Eclipse,
The difference is that there are plenty of organic sources of P and K available. The Organic approval groups allow walking a thin line where alternatives are not plentiful, or are difficult to apply, don't release in a reasonable amount of time, costly, etc.

I get your point, but I don't think there's any danger of Potassium Phosphate being approved for Organic use. Nor should it be. Good luck. -granger

 

[EclipseFour20]

> Potassium Silicate to be OK for those that are otherwise "100% Organic", then why shouldn't Potassium Phosphate receive the same >treatment?

Eclipse,
The difference is that there are plenty of organic sources of P and K available. The Organic approval groups allow walking a thin line where alternatives are not plentiful, or are difficult to apply, don't release in a reasonable amount of time, costly, etc.

I get your point, but I don't think there's any danger of Potassium Phosphate being approved for Organic use. Nor should it be. Good luck. -granger

I hear you Granger, but shouldn't that logic apply to Potassium Silicate? Since there are plenty of "organic" sources for Si "soil fertility"--other than Fossil Shell Flour (89% Si) I believe bamboo extracts contain 70%, rice hulls ash contain 60% and so goes the list. And then we have the debate of which Si source is more efficient in providing PAS (plant available silica)...hint: Potassium Silicate is not even on top of the list.

Call me an old fuddy dud, but can anyone explain why those that go well beyond "organic" (ROLS) can turn a blind eye to their organic principles and incorporate this particular synthetic input. I find the lack of consistency very odd--especially from a group of "organic fanatics" with a reputation for being rather intolerant.

Mike, SiloTec is hard to get but is available. Anyone selling GrowMore products should be able to get it. Here in So Cal--I get mine at OC Farm Supply.

 

[Team Microbe]

LOL you guys are too funny

Moving on...

 

[CimeTempestose]

............. View Image ......... Here's the first bud shot of a purple pheno one of my testers grew out... .............

I already subscibed this 3d .. but let me say ...Very nice pic !

 

[grower stak]

LOL you guys are too funny

Moving on...

CC already pointed out how wrong the guy is about this subject three years ago.

 

[Team Microbe]

LOL...no problem, sometimes "complicated" questions have difficult answers.

View Image

Not that, it's the redundancy that's been carried in this thread ever since LLB sent her crew over here to "do work"

I'd rather just keep this thread productive and interesting for those that are reading, rather than have them skim through pages of you guys going at it back and forth about issues that have already been solved. I just wish you would carry a better attitude with ya man, I don't like negativity and if all it takes is us telling you you're "right" then so be it - but I would prefer not to clutter up the thread with bickering like that. The day you begin analyzing what % organic your entire routine is will be the day that gardening loses it's fun.

For example, let's take the nit picking in both of the lava rock threads I've posted. We both know (or at least I and many others do) that the porosity and structure of lava provides an ideal habitat for microbes to harbor inside of... yet you continue to press on and say you have no evidence of this being true. You then go onto mention irrelevant issues such as the release of elements if the pH is indeed below 5.5 - all signs and symptoms of some type of Napoleon complex where your dire need to be right all the time causes your arguments to lack validity in general. I never know what to believe because even when you're wrong you won't admit it. It's so silly if you stand back and look at the big picture here with me... we should be confident enough as growers to be open minded enough to accept the fact that we're not perfect. You can be wrong and still keep your reputation online, it's how you handle yourself that defines you. I'll admit it, I'm stubborn at times but the difference between me and you is the fact that I'll come to terms with it soon there after reading into it a bit further; you need to do the same Eclipse. I don't mean to stereotype, but you're really starting to come off as one of those older gentlemen that grow bitter with age for some reason. I don't know what causes it, maybe putting up with young guns like me with loud mouths for so long

Anyways, all I ask is you shift your attitude a bit more to the positive side. Let's all light up a bowl, and not take things so seriously all the time. Growing should be fun, not analytical skepticism that turns people off. I know and have known that Agsil16H isn't organic, but that's simply because it's not derived from a natural source. It's affects on the environment, our plants, and ourselves is of no concern for me though. It's one of those things where the benefits outweigh the cons, ya know?