Tea Article

[ClackamasCootz]

So much for flushing......

 

[trichrider]

can i get the skinny on perpetual brewing?
i know it's unconventional, but i figure it's like sourdough bread...keep a viable population to innoculate the next batch, just keep them fed and aerated???
pretty please...

 

[Microbeman]

can i get the skinny on perpetual brewing?
i know it's unconventional, but i figure it's like sourdough bread...keep a viable population to innoculate the next batch, just keep them fed and aerated???
pretty please...

a previous post sort of covers it...
CT Guy has discussed it several times as well

The following clips demonstrate the changes that an aerated compost tea (ACT) goes through over time. Please excuse my unusual form of narration. Note that the following ‘brews’ were all made using simple ingredients as itemized on my webpage (good finished but fresh vermicompost at 2.38%, black strap molasses at 0.50%, fish hydrolysate at 0.063%, feed grade kelpmeal [not necessary!] at less than 0.25%, soft rock phosphate [not necessary!] at 0.063%) Lately I have been making ACT successfully using only vermicompost and molasses.

First at 18 hours, the early stages of a brew, normally we see the development/division of bacteria/archaea and the growth of fungal hyphae. If one is seeking a fungal brew for some reason, this is the time to use it.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs2vcfree.wmv

In the following clip I identify an amoeba as a naked type but in retrospect it may be an active testate amoeba.
http://microbeorganics.com/18hrs3vcfree.wmv

Usually some time between 24 and 40 hours flagellates and/or naked amoebae excyst (hatch out) and begin dividing every 2 to 4 hours so the population increases rapidly. Flagellates are the small globe-like creatures moving about. They are larger than bacteria/archaea but normally smaller than ciliates. It is the flagellates in ACT which are mainly responsible for cycling nutrients to your plants. As they eat bacteria/archaea they excrete ionic (available) form nutrients to the roots. Amoebae and ciliates also contribute to this but too many ciliates can be a sign that there may be an abundance of anaerobic bacteria and the ‘brew’ is on its way (or has gone) downhill.
http://microbeorganics.com/36hrsvcfree.wmv

At 42 hours we still have a good ‘brew’ and this is often the stage I usually apply it at but I recommend 36 hours to folks who do not use a microscope. You can see that ciliates have come to life by the presence of the beautiful vorticella.
http://microbeorganics.com/42hrsvcfree.wmv

Finally, at 60 hours takes a very efficient machine and good monitoring with microscope and O2 meter to ensure good quality. Although it is not stressed in the narration one can see the increasing presence of ciliates whizzing around out of focus. These are normally larger and faster than flagellates and can indicate the presence of too many anaerobic bacteria. Usually if the ‘brew’ is continued on past this point it degrades rapidly, with ciliates and anaerobic bacteria dominating.
http://microbeorganics.com/60hrsvcfree.wmv

As long as there are much greater numbers of flagellates and/or naked (active) amoebae than ciliates there is no worry because ciliates also cycle nutrients. It is possible to run a perpetual ‘brew’ but there will always be a down cycle where undesirable organisms dominate until the new [vermi]compost and foodstock kicks in (starts being consumed and the correct microbial groups begin multiplying again) and homeostasis is established. I have seen this down cycle persist for at least 24 hours.

Shops selling from a perpetual brew:
If one is selling tea to customers from a perpetual ‘brew’, how do you decide which customer(s) gets the inferior ‘tea’. There are people who did the testing of perpetual brews a number of years ago and assuming that ACT is about achieving a consortium of diverse nutrient cycling microorganisms, they concluded there is greater efficacy achieved by starting a new ‘brew’ each time.

Those who advocate the perpetual brew support their method by alluding to some mysterious hidden diversity which one can not know about without DNA testing. This is complicating the use of ACT and [vermi]compost far beyond its simple form and use within the microbial nutrient loop. They are confusing bacteria and archaea which fix nitrogen (and other nutrients) with the nutrient cycling previously described, wherein nutrients are cycled by protozoa feasting on bacteria/archaea and excreting bioavailable nutrients taken up by roots. The diversity we are looking for are bacteria/archaea and flagellates (and amoebae) mainly. Fungal hyphae provides an ongoing food resource, binds soil aggregates, provides microbial pathways, degrades organic matter and increases moisture and O2 holding capacity. There is no mystery here, no specialty agents (although there could be) and it is as easy to see that diversity, with a microscope as it is looking for robins, sparrows and crows in your back yard with binoculars.

The folks who are perpetuating this mystery bunk to advocate perpetual brews, as far as I can tell, do so to line their pockets. They do not appear to back up their statements with data and criticize other ‘brewer’ sellers who do. They entice hydro shop owners by illustrating how they can price gouge their customers. Amusingly they also state on their site that one should not ‘brew’ beyond 24 hours because the microbes must be applied hungry…..Yikes!

 

[trichrider]

It is possible to run a perpetual ‘brew’ but there will always be a down cycle where undesirable organisms dominate until the new [vermi]compost and foodstock kicks in (starts being consumed and the correct microbial groups begin multiplying again) and homeostasis is established. I have seen this down cycle persist for at least 24 hours.

could be why it takes 36 hrs. for a good population to develop(mo+fishhydrosolate, no other additives), or is it the size of the brewer?
i've put together a 50G brewer...

it's got to be the dilution as i draw off tea and add water and nutrients. i'm curious as it's been working with only periodic cleaning and very little goop forming around the aerator (a sprinkler head) and the secondary airstone. good populations within 36 hours. bacteria, protazoa, flagellates, amoebae, and fungal hyphae.
wc and compost starter plug. well water.
and thanks for addressing my question so promptly.
it's made a world of difference in my gardens.

 

[hope2toke]

nice photo nice info!

 

[FinestKind]

First off, I'm sorry if this has been discussed already... I have terrible internet and it would take a week to read every post... if it has, please just link me to the post! Thanks!

Is pH any kind of indicator for the health of the microbial population in a tea? I use a combination of Earth Juice, worm castings, and a nice organic manure and peat humus compost from here on the east coast called Coast of Maine, as well as some molasses. The pH starts out very low (around 4.0), and stays that way for about 2 days, and on the third day it magically climbs to around 6.5. I was originally lead to believe that this meant that the tea was now good to use, but I thought I'd check in with you guys to see if this was the case. It still smells good after 3 days, but since I do not have a microscope, I have no way of telling for sure what's going on. I use 24 gallon barrels and an EcoPlus 4-outlet pump in each barrel. (By the way, how much compost should I be using in a barrel this size? I've been using 2 cups of each worm castings and compost per barrel.) Thanks for your help- great article!

~FK

 

[Microbeman]

First off, I'm sorry if this has been discussed already... I have terrible internet and it would take a week to read every post... if it has, please just link me to the post! Thanks!

Is pH any kind of indicator for the health of the microbial population in a tea? I use a combination of Earth Juice, worm castings, and a nice organic manure and peat humus compost from here on the east coast called Coast of Maine, as well as some molasses. The pH starts out very low (around 4.0), and stays that way for about 2 days, and on the third day it magically climbs to around 6.5. I was originally lead to believe that this meant that the tea was now good to use, but I thought I'd check in with you guys to see if this was the case. It still smells good after 3 days, but since I do not have a microscope, I have no way of telling for sure what's going on. I use 24 gallon barrels and an EcoPlus 4-outlet pump in each barrel. (By the way, how much compost should I be using in a barrel this size? I've been using 2 cups of each worm castings and compost per barrel.) Thanks for your help- great article!

~FK

pH is a factor of the balance of a microbial population. In general fungi trend towards acidic and bacteri towards alkaline. They often balance out at a good ratio around 6.3 to 6.6. This is the main reason why pH is not really a concern in organic growing.

Please see this for information on recipes and brewing times;
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Compost_Tea_Recipes

and this for air requirements and efficient brewer design. Many have successfully used the simple single airlift (vortex) design.
http://www.microbeorganics.com/#So_You_Wanna_Build_A_Compost_Tea_Brewer

Look at the other sticky http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=200274
for lots of photos and solid advice. Go right through the whole thread looking for photos of good brewers and concentrate on those posts.

I've heard of the compost you are using. It is supposed to be good. Good luck.

 

[FinestKind]

Thanks a bunch, great links, much appreciated!

 

[FinestKind]

So, I am considering purchasing the EcoPlus Commercial Air 5 that you recommend on your website... can I run two 24-gallon barrels off of this through a manifold without significant loss in airflow due to the manifold? Any idea where I can purchase a two-way manifold that would be compatible with this pump? (It has a 3/8" ID tube size) I'm thinking about doing a simple bubbler design, rather than the airlift- my space is extraordinarily limited. Thanks! (Hmm, maybe I should take this over to the 10 min $10 DIY page?)

 

[Microbeman]

I would tend to do one barrel at a time or get a bigger barrel and use about 45 gallons or build an airlift. I do not know where to get manifolds...sorry

 

[Scrappy4]

Finestkind, as much as I like ewc or compost in a tea, I see no benefit from using either with your earth juice. The main benefit in using compost in a tea is for it's microbes. Earth juice teas are for their nutritional values. Together I think the sum of your tea is less than the parts. Plus I sense you pulling away from EJ into the realm of living soil, am I right?

As one who left the juice, I can tell you living soil is easier all around and better, more sustàinable and what not in the long run. Plus it's been a pleasent learning experience, and this new found knowledge has helped in my veggie garden as wel, although I'm sure you could grow kick ass tomatoes with the juice, lol......scrappy

 

[rrog]

Great summary Scrap-man.

 

[FinestKind]

Finestkind, as much as I like ewc or compost in a tea, I see no benefit from using either with your earth juice. The main benefit in using compost in a tea is for it's microbes. Earth juice teas are for their nutritional values. Together I think the sum of your tea is less than the parts. Plus I sense you pulling away from EJ into the realm of living soil, am I right?

As one who left the juice, I can tell you living soil is easier all around and better, more sustàinable and what not in the long run. Plus it's been a pleasent learning experience, and this new found knowledge has helped in my veggie garden as wel, although I'm sure you could grow kick ass tomatoes with the juice, lol......scrappy

I guess my line of thinking is that I am trying to add microbes to the soil in order to digest the EJ... is this wrong? It had seemed to me that the combination of a healthy soil and the nutrients from EJ would make for a whole product of sorts. After all, I have to get nutrients from somewhere, right?

Truth be told, I'd love to "get off the bottles," but I can't afford (literally) to fail, and therefore I am afraid to try, which I guess is why I am slowly making my way down that path. Yes, I am pulling away from the EJ, but it seems like a daunting prospect, and I am not 100% comfortable as of yet making the full leap.

Thanks to people like you (and you too, Microbeman!) and this site for even making it a possibility!

 

[ClackamasCootz]

What's in Earth Juice?

 

[Microbeman]

I can't remember the ingredients in EJ but it may be a good microbial food applied separate from ACT. If it contains humic acid it will IMO inhibit bacterial division and fungal growth 'in a liquid'. Liquid kelp extract will delay bacterial division IMO 'in a liquid'.

 

[FinestKind]

I can't remember the ingredients in EJ but it may be a good microbial food applied separate from ACT. If it contains humic acid it will IMO inhibit bacterial division and fungal growth 'in a liquid'. Liquid kelp extract will delay bacterial division IMO 'in a liquid'.

Earth Juice is derived from blood meal, bone meal, bat guano, sulfate of potash, sea kelp, and molasses. That's for the Grow and Bloom, the macros... then there is an additive called Catalyst which is derived from oat bran, sea kelp, wheat malt, molasses, and yeast. That one sounds like microbe food, no?

There is no source of humic in the EJ itself, but I have (had?) been adding some in addition to my teas... I did just read on the website that you no longer recommend adding it...

So, I think this is what scrappy was saying... rather than adding it all together, I should be doing the microbe tea and the EJ separately (assuming I do keep using the EJ)? I guess I didn't realize that macronutrients affected the microbe populations...

So much to learn, so little time. Thanks again!

Edit: Just saw your line about liquid kelp delaying bacterial division. So maybe the Catalyst isn't microbe food, after all?

P.S. One thing I haven't seen in my reading yet is how often it should be applied in a 3-week veg, 11-week flowering cycle?

 

[Granger2]

ForestKind,
EJ encourages bubbling their mixes. Their ingredients are fermented, so I don't know that the amount of sea kelp in the Catalyst, which is also fermented, will cause problems. I usually bubble EJ mixes, and I know the microbes seem to do just fine. I do it primarily to get the pH up to the range I want since the mixes start out quite low.

Bubbling the EJ mixes helps process the nutrients for better availability, and having a high microbial mix is an improvement IMO.

On this run I'm alternating bubbled EJ mixes, followed by water, followed by ACT, water. Looking good so far. Good luck. -granger

 

[Microbeman]

Earth Juice is derived from blood meal, bone meal, bat guano, sulfate of potash, sea kelp, and molasses. That's for the Grow and Bloom, the macros... then there is an additive called Catalyst which is derived from oat bran, sea kelp, wheat malt, molasses, and yeast. That one sounds like microbe food, no?

There is no source of humic in the EJ itself, but I have (had?) been adding some in addition to my teas... I did just read on the website that you no longer recommend adding it...

So, I think this is what scrappy was saying... rather than adding it all together, I should be doing the microbe tea and the EJ separately (assuming I do keep using the EJ)? I guess I didn't realize that macronutrients affected the microbe populations...

So much to learn, so little time. Thanks again!

Edit: Just saw your line about liquid kelp delaying bacterial division. So maybe the Catalyst isn't microbe food, after all?

P.S. One thing I haven't seen in my reading yet is how often it should be applied in a 3-week veg, 11-week flowering cycle?

Many people don't realize the effect of kelpmeal in ACT because they use it with other ingredients. Same thing with humic acid. It was not until I (and CT Guy) tested them individually that we realized their different effects. This does not mean they have that effect in the soil. BTW the kelp can delay bacterial division but also feed fungi so it is not a lost cause for ACT, just be ready to brew longer.

I like applying my raw foods like kelp, humic acid and fish hydrolysate separately. I use fish hydrolysate in ACT but once made the mistake of adding extra at the end of the brew and saw that I wiped out around 40% of the microbes.

EJ is the one bottled nutrient product I've heard good things about. There is a study posted by my good friend Spurr in here somewhere where they grew tomatoes with EJ.

How often to apply ACT or EJ?

ACT, as often as you wish.

 

[Microbeman]

and I know the microbes seem to do just fine

Granger2; How did you establish this?

 

[Scrappy4]

Finestkind, if you look back in the earth juice sticky, you will see me in there for a good long time. I used earth juice with both great success and some not so hot. I amended my soil and used the juice both, so looking back I assume I added way too much "really good stuff" I was also into ph-ing everything like most growers on the juice. I know you know exactly what I mean.

Then when I read and understood more I just decided to make my own juice based loosely on earth juice. So far so good, my stuff worked as well as the juice and maybe slightly better. And i found homemade compost made my soil better, juice or no juice.

Then I found quite a few botanical agents that I could use as teas, soil amendments, and ferment myself, that simply out performed my juice imitations. Along this progression, I learned about the importance of minerals, humic acid, how to make good compost and ewc, crab meal and organic neem meal soon followed, and on and on went, every grow getting better.

Next was no till, and just since spring growing my own comfrey. So now I will say thanks to those who passed on their knowledge on these stoner forums, and then of course al gore for inventing the inter web, and some sweat equity, I can honestly say, this road I'm on has been profitable on many levels, and definitely worth taking a good hard look at for the interested wanna be ganja scientist.

That is all, carry on........scrappy