Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[ngakpa]

First off, I don't think you can point us to these particular fields of weed that have these specific names. And just who deemed these plants untouchable and sacred? You?
And NO these are NOT ancient plants, because the only ancient plants that will be around would be from a saved seed lot, from ancient times.

mate, cannabis as a species is around 50 million years old - it's been in Asia for all that time, and the local cultivars were developed from wild populations in many seperate areas --- there is a huge amount of diversity of wild and cultivated types, even now after many areas have lost some of their best high end cultivars

the diversity we have now is ultimately the product of millenia - that goes even for more recent New World vars. ... introducing modern hybrid pollen and seeds into these regions and you begin erasing that diversity that has taken millenia to evolve

if you don't think that the fields of heirloom ganja and hashish cultivars exist, go and look for yourself - in Nepal, Guyana, Lao, Swaziland wherever

the appearance of the plants is very different, be they Lebanese, Thai, Kerala, Colombian, Afghan cultivars etc. etc. etc. --- and the products can all be distinguished by appearance, smell, effect etc. etc. etc. - anybody who has experience of them could tell them apart blindfolded

Sam Skunkman himself has said that he wished it was possible to prevent people from growing modern hybrids in heirloom regions - but his attitude is ultimately if farmers want to do this, then nobody can stop them

one of many reasons for legalising cannabis is that "appelation controlle" type systems could be introduced, similar to wine regioins, and there could be laws created to contol what breeds can be grown where, and what farmers can claim their field is x or y breed

in the meantime cannabis continues to lose biodiversity every year

 

[Baba Ku]

I love how all the opinions think I am missing the point. I understand your points quite well. Please do not try to make out as if I am simply a dumbass that isn't grasping the concept. What, because I have a differing opinion than the cult, I don't understand things?
Especially since I contend there may be some missed connections on you peoples end of this, and perhaps you simply aren't grasping what I am trying to convey.

Indigenous cannabis is not heirloom tomatoes, nor do they act as tomatoes act. They have totally different makeups. And cannabis is also not a crocodile. But I can see how this "logical" thinking could bring one to use them as a comparative.

Really, have the best of intentions and collect indigenous cannabis seeds. But to think you can preserve the strain is a bit much. I think many don't grasp what that would actually require. And like I have said, what you saved won't be like it was where you got it if you grow it were you are. The change I am talking about (not the change over millenniums) takes place immediately and with each and every generation. The mechanisms embedded in cannabis makes this so.

As far as the farmers crop, perhaps he should have some say in this. And I think they would opt for improvements and probably aren't too fired up about trying to save something that nature didn't intend to stay the same anyway.
How is it that we are smarter than nature and think it needs to remain the same? Especially when it isn't even our fields we are considering?

Seems many of you are combative in your tone. I am simply trying to discuss an issue.
Perhaps the loathe for GH drives some of this? Kinda puzzling really.

 

[burningfire]

I love how all the opinions think I am missing the point. I understand your points quite well. Please do not try to make out as if I am simply a dumbass that isn't grasping the concept. What, because I have a differing opinion than the cult, I don't understand things?
Especially since I contend there may be some missed connections on you peoples end of this, and perhaps you simply aren't grasping what I am trying to convey.

Indigenous cannabis is not heirloom tomatoes, nor do they act as tomatoes act. They have totally different makeups. And cannabis is also not a crocodile. But I can see how this "logical" thinking could bring one to use them as a comparative.

Really, have the best of intentions and collect indigenous cannabis seeds. But to think you can preserve the strain is a bit much. I think many don't grasp what that would actually require. And like I have said, what you saved won't be like it was where you got it if you grow it were you are. The change I am talking about (not the change over millenniums) takes place immediately and with each and every generation. The mechanisms embedded in cannabis makes this so.

As far as the farmers crop, perhaps he should have some say in this. And I think they would opt for improvements and probably aren't too fired up about trying to save something that nature didn't intend to stay the same anyway.
How is it that we are smarter than nature and think it needs to remain the same? Especially when it isn't even our fields we are considering?

Seems many of you are combative in your tone. I am simply trying to discuss an issue.
Perhaps the loathe for GH drives some of this? Kinda puzzling really.

not all cannabis relies on photoperiodism to trigger flowering, you are partially right in saying that growing something collected elsewhere might not look the same but that's not true for all cannabis... if you continue to want to treat cannabis differently than heirloom vegetables, you are just stubborn. both are a source of food, some have resistance to viruses, pests, humidity. they come in different shapes and colors and differ in taste and aroma.

 

[Baba Ku]

So, one must treat the plant in a specific way to not be stubborn?
Does that sort of thing not reinforce the cult aspect that I mentioned?

I don't want strains eradicated. Good grief. But to think that a farmer can't introduce genes to improve his crop, and only in the interest of preserving something that wasn't meant to be preserved anyway? Bollocks. The first and major concern should be the farmer and his needs, and not the whims of others from distant lands. If it were to bother someone so bad, all they need do is collect seeds and store them, right? Then let have at, no?

There are so many more variables that come into play besides the photo period when it comes to phenotype expression. And what I said about the plant not being the same when grown elsewhere is spot on for ALL indigenous cannabis.

I tend to have a problem with the preservation crowds, be it cannabis or snail darters. When the preserving of these things, with nothing more in mind than preservation, hinders the progress of man, it sort of gaulds my sack. Are we sharper than nature and know what needs to be, and what needs not to be?
I don't know. You?

 

[burningfire]

I don't think anyone will disagree that ultimately it's up to the farmers to decide, the problem most people here have, I think is with Arjan's attitude.

I don't know if the preservation seedbank in the north stores cannabis seeds as well.

 

[Baba Ku]

I don't think any of our stances have anything to fear from AJ. Those people don't have the type of money that he subsists on. I bet they aren't even in his thoughts. Although with substantial resources and a gene library a person could actually help those farmers by working their crops the way things should be done, which may include the introduction of other genes.

It has been since it came out that I have actually watched the film in question, but does anyone else also feel that AJ probably was correct in his choice of a "good" pheno in the field? If I remember correctly, the locals seems like they were almost winking at each other as if to say; "this guy is supposed to be some sort of ganja man and picked the worst of our lot! "
Things aren't always as they seem, or as we may logically figure them out to be.
Common sense is often just that. -Common.

 

[burningfire]

who can say he was correct when he picked a pheno with good branching without smoking it first? is that the way people should select for potency/yield? I don't pretend I know a good genetic specimen. I must stress the need for diversity too and I doubt these guys need any new genes to supplement their incomes.

 

[ngakpa]

But to think you can preserve the strain is a bit much. I think many don't grasp what that would actually require. And like I have said, what you saved won't be like it was where you got it if you grow it were you are.

trying to save something that nature didn't intend to stay the same anyway.
How is it that we are smarter than nature and think it needs to remain the same?

right, so you know better than all the scientists involved in projects like the Millenium Seedbank, do you?

honestly mate, your arguments are genuinely puerile

preservation and conservation are not an arrogant human idea, to be the stewards of nature is our duty --- laying waste to global ecology is what is arrogant - mankind has a duty to the planet which sustains our very existence, and which is now in the middle of the 6th Great Extinction

genetic diversity can be maintained precisely through longterm seed storage and through cloning ---


both of which techniques do in fact overcome the point you are making about changes over generations in a new environment (the first germinated generation kept as clone will only show phenotypic variation, not variation in the genotype)

in addition, growing heirloom plants as annuals (rather than hybrids) is also a very worthwhile contribution to the biodiversity of the species

honestly, to suggest that ecologists think they are "smarter than nature" is pathetically wrongheaded and childish - you sound like a wannabe Fox news commentator

and then to suggest that nature didn't intend species and varieties to stay the same, so to save them is just an arrogant human idea --- it is you who are fixated mate, not the ecologists ---

there are countless annual and dioecious plant species being saved in seedbank projects ---

your crankish obsession with vaguely defined concepts of "change" and "the same" is like the deluded discourse of a wannabe New Age guru --- make your ideas more specific, or risk drifting off beyond the boundries of coherence

and if you're so sure you've had some kind of revelation about the futility of ecology and conservation (of annual and dioecious plant species???) then why don't you try writing to the Millenium Seedbank, Kew Gardens and all the other organisations working to preserve the world's heirloom crops and plant species?

I wonder if they will even honour you with a reply...

 

[Baba Ku]

right, so you know better than all the scientists involved in projects like the Millenium Seedbank, do you?

I've not stated that preserving seeds was a bad thing to do, quite the opposite. But we, including you, are not a preservation seed bank. And I highly doubt you (we) have the controls in place that such a group has.

honestly mate, your arguments are genuinely puerile

That would be in your eyes.
This whole argument was concerning the introduction of genes into an indigenous crop...a crop you know nothing about. How is it that my take is childish yet your argument owns the ability to throw stones at others thoughts?

preservation and conservation are not an arrogant human idea, to be the stewards of nature is our duty --- laying waste to global ecology is what is arrogant - mankind has a duty to the planet which sustains our very existence, and which is now in the middle of the 6th Great Extinction

I'm sure you enjoyed whatever book you got that phrase from, but I don't see too many saying things such as we are in an extinction. It just isn't so. When a whole agricultural area is being starved for water, water that is available. And only for the preservation of some obscure minnow, then I know for sure the hinges have started to come loose.
Things on this planet are NOT to remain that same, and that fact is instilled into each and every living thing on the planet. Yet some find themselves far above nature and feel their thinking is far more important than nature, or another person's thinking.
Even to a point that some will call others names and qualifying their opinions for simply voicing a stance.
Other of the earths so called ecologists actually terrorize those that do not share their same thoughts.

genetic diversity can be maintained precisely through longterm seed storage and through cloning ---

Long term seed storage means different things to different people. The folks at a credible seed preservation group have the resources and tools it takes to accomplish a seed save, do you? No. Do most any of us? No, is the undeniable answer.

...
both of which techniques do in fact overcome the point you are making about changes over generations in a new environment (the first germinated generation kept as clone will only show phenotypic variation, not variation in the genotype)

No, it does not change what I have been saying. First of all, unless we have the proper tools and space, we cannot be trusted to keep a preservation. You yourself can do the best you can, and I would bet big money that in 20 years less than 50% of your stock will be viable, if not more.
And secondly, you may need to study up a bit on the genetics of cannabis. Try googling genetic drift and then mutation, read up, and then get back to us on how worthy clone keeping is as a tool to perpetuate a strain. You may actually start to grasp what I have been saying about cannabis constantly changing with each generation.

in addition, growing heirloom plants as annuals (rather than hybrids) is also a very worthwhile contribution to the biodiversity of the species

Yeah, it sure does in our cloistered and clandestine modes of operation. NOT!
Perhaps you could explain to us how this is so?

honestly, to suggest that ecologists think they are "smarter than nature" is pathetically wrongheaded and childish - you sound like a wannabe Fox news commentator

Wow, now you are politicizing the issue. And yes, I do think that a vast number of so called ecologists think lots of things that are all screwed up. What does it make you if you back these ecologists in saving a minnow from extinction, in lieu of thousands of farmers making a productive and fruitful existence? To back that is not childish and wrongheaded?
BTW, does FOX news lie to us and tell us bullshit? I would like some examples of that. Heck, I have them on my TV and it seems they are no different than any other news source.
Or, is it that the things you see there would be in line with my argument, and you simply find it childish and wrongheaded because it goes against what you think and feel?
Maybe I am missing the point? I mean you have already stated that I miss points, and perhaps I missed this one. Please explain to me how the snail darter's continued existence takes precedence over mans life? Help me to understand the logic behind that.

and then to suggest that nature didn't intend species and varieties to stay the same, so to save them is just an arrogant human idea --- it is you who are fixated mate, not the ecologists ---

The only think I am fixated on is the very facts of nature. And they back my side, not yours. Prove me wrong.

there are countless annual and dioecious plant species being saved in seedbank projects ---

That's nice.

your crankish obsession with vaguely defined concepts of "change" and "the same" is like the deluded discourse of a wannabe New Age guru --- make your ideas more specific, or risk drifting off beyond the boundries of coherence

I'm crankish because I don't fall over myself like some sort of cult member?
The concept of change in the genetic map of cannabis is not a vaguely defined concept. I suggest YOU study up so we can have an intelligent conversation about diversity and change in cannabis.

Just a quick example of the change that cannabis can see in just a few generations; Say you plant 1000 seeds collected from an indigenous field in Africa in your back yard. And then plant 1000 of them from the same lot in the same field from which they came.
Grow each population through say four or five generations and then harvest 1000 seeds from each population.
Grow all the 2000 seeds in the original plot in Africa keeping the groups separated. These groups will not be the same., Their will be huge differences in both groups. And why? Because cannabis is always reacting to environmental pressures and stress. It does this in each and every generation. And this change can and will carry on to the progeny.
The ONLY way you could have kept the populations the same was to grow the seeds in the patch they were taken from. And the only way for them to remain the same is to keep them there. But, they really won't remain the same even when left to live in their own indigenous environment, because cannabis is always changing.

and if you're so sure you've had some kind of revelation about the futility of ecology and conservation (of annual and dioecious plant species???) then why don't you try writing to the Millenium Seedbank, Kew Gardens and all the other organisations working to preserve the world's heirloom crops and plant species?

I wonder if they will even honour you with a reply...

Why would I contact them? To argue? I have already stated I think that preserving is a fine thing to do. Especially when one has the ability to do it properly.
And you wonder if they will even honor my reply? Do you think those people are the types that hold grudges and call names of those that disagree with them? Such as yourself?
I highly doubt it.

I wonder if they will even honour you with a reply...

That was a rude comment, and it tells me lots about how your mind works.

 

[Rinse]

I return to this thread and roll my eyes at the realization that baba ku is stil typing.

Things on this planet are NOT to remain that same, and that fact is instilled into each and every living thing on the planet.

And secondly, you may need to study up a bit on the genetics of cannabis. Try googling genetic drift and then mutation, read up, and then get back to us on how worthy clone keeping is as a tool to perpetuate a strain. You may actually start to grasp what I have been saying about cannabis constantly changing with each generation.

Genetic drift is not the same as introducing dutch skunk into a field of African cannabis, how many times son?

BTW, does FOX news lie to us and tell us bullshit? I would like some examples of that.

LOL

Maybe I am missing the point?

Progress ^

RE READ:

...make your ideas more specific, or risk drifting off beyond the boundries of coherence

 

[Baba Ku]

I don't know if you are just rude, or grasping at something just to be able to continue in the discussion, Rinse? In any measure, what you just provided was uncalled for.

Is it commonplace for the combative nature of people to show through just because of differing opinions here? What was the term you used ngapka? -puerile?

 

[mr noodles]

ive been in india 3 times in my life and i have smoked pure skunk # 1 grown from dutch seeds in the 80 's ...and if you think teh grower there are all kinda redneck and uneducated ....wrong answer...ask gypsy if he have order from india since he is in biz lol

guess what some of them even breed and hunt for the best 'commercial material'

same in jamaica ...i had nl5 x haze ...in thailand you can have c99 and og kush on the beach lol

if you think the genes poll was not corrupted before today ,you are a fool

its already all mixed up since the 60's peoples from all over the world travel to india and other part of the world with seeds...anyway seeds and pollen travel all over that geographical area via human source since the night of the time

many breeders go and breed in india and in that region with imported material since long ago lol

so some of you need to take a step back and look at a larger picture than just smashing greenhouse for being dumb enough tell it loud in the open .

the earth is not virgin anymore as your mother...thats reality ...

 

[elmanito]

its already all mixed up since the 60's peoples from all over the world travel to india and other part of the world with seeds...anyway seeds and pollen travel all over that geographical area via human source since the night of the time
...

If that is the case than we are in big trouble, but we aren't.I don't think that this Parvati strain has ever been crossed with a Skunk#1 or any other western strain.

Western cannabis strains just won't survive the yearly monsoon in the area where the Parvati is coming from.Any strain with indica genes from Afghanistan will die during the monsoon.Not all area's are contaminated with western bred cannabis genes.Even in Jamaica you can find the old strains

Lambsbread

Namaste

 

[Baba Ku]

..by man, beast, or element.

 

[Rinse]

I don't know if you are just rude, or grasping at something just to be able to continue in the discussion, Rinse? In any measure, what you just provided was uncalled for.

Is it commonplace for the combative nature of people to show through just because of differing opinions here? What was the term you used ngapka? -puerile?

Ok man, no disrespect is intended, I actually like your posts, you are clearly intelligent, its just as I keep saying I feel you are missing the point on this one.

If that is the case than we are in big trouble, but we aren't.I don't think that this Parvati strain has ever been crossed with a Skunk#1 or any other western strain.

Western cannabis strains just won't survive the yearly monsoon in the area where the Parvati is coming from.Any strain with indica genes from Afghanistan will die during the monsoon.Not all area's are contaminated with western bred cannabis genes.Even in Jamaica you can find the old strains

Lambsbread

Namaste

Wooooii that Lambsbread
Show me some dutch skunk that looks like that Baba I sed Shhoooowww meee!

 

[burningfire]

I've not stated that preserving seeds was a bad thing to do, quite the opposite. But we, including you, are not a preservation seed bank. And I highly doubt you (we) have the controls in place that such a group has.

then you clearly don't know him at all....

 

[Baba Ku]

Perhaps not, but I have a pretty fair feel for the "we" part of it.

Look, I am not lobbying against preserving old lines. Not in the least. I have some old stuff myself. I have grown lots of what it considered landrace pot and I have a respect for the ancient genes and stories.
I just have a different take on it that's all.

As far as the introduction of these so called dutch genes into the gene pool, just what are dutch genes? Seems like it turned into skunk during the conversation? But whatever they are supposed to be, let's look at it like this;
If there are genes available that are foreign to an area, that could improve the crop to the liking of the growers, then that is what horticulture is all about. Man has been improving lines of everything since man could figure such stuff out, and all to his benefit.
Sure, the keeping of the original genes that created what we have and are today is a laudable venture, but to think that no areas should see hybrid advancements, in the interest of a futile attempt at keeping something the way a person or group of people that are unassociated with the area thinks it should be, is a bit selfish in my opinion.

It also pisses me off a bit to see aj traipsing around the jungle filming his movie. Those local people could probably use a bit of help from a bloke with resources. Perhaps help them learn some soil management techniques, or perhaps improve their crops.
Wait..I know, perhaps responsible cannabis breeding techniques! Teach a man to fish and all...
I expect more from a king.

 

[burningfire]

Perhaps not, but I have a pretty fair feel for the "we" part of it.

Look, I am not lobbying against preserving old lines. Not in the least. I have some old stuff myself. I have grown lots of what it considered landrace pot and I have a respect for the ancient genes and stories.
I just have a different take on it that's all.

As far as the introduction of these so called dutch genes into the gene pool, just what are dutch genes? Seems like it turned into skunk during the conversation? But whatever they are supposed to be, let's look at it like this;
If there are genes available that are foreign to an area, that could improve the crop to the liking of the growers, then that is what horticulture is all about. Man has been improving lines of everything since man could figure such stuff out, and all to his benefit.
Sure, the keeping of the original genes that created what we have and are today is a laudable venture, but to think that no areas should see hybrid advancements, in the interest of a futile attempt at keeping something the way a person or group of people that are unassociated with the area thinks it should be, is a bit selfish in my opinion.

It also pisses me off a bit to see aj traipsing around the jungle filming his movie. Those local people could probably use a bit of help from a bloke with resources. Perhaps help them learn some soil management techniques, or perhaps improve their crops.
Wait..I know, perhaps responsible cannabis breeding techniques! Teach a man to fish and all...
I expect more from a king.

what? I'm sure they have much more experience growing plants that are part of this particular genepool, they've seen the results for a number of generations, what the hell is arjan going to tell them? use big bud liquid fertilizers? do you think they're living in the dark over there? they're doing the best they can with the ressources they have.

and don't talk about responsible cannabis breeding when ghs breeds for an indoor/hps environment.

 

[Baba Ku]

what? I'm sure they have much more experience growing plants that are part of this particular genepool, they've seen the results for a number of generations, what the hell is arjan going to tell them? use big bud liquid fertilizers? do you think they're living in the dark over there? they're doing the best they can with the ressources they have.

and don't talk about responsible cannabis breeding when ghs breeds for an indoor/hps environment.

Aj isn't going to tell them much at all. His money talks much louder.
And what I was saying that if their resources or genes are limited, then it isn't a bad thing to introduce new techniques, genes, etc...

OK, I'll not talk about responsible cannabis breeding, since you think cannabis selected for indoor growing won't grow well outdoors.

Besides, I am not even thinking about the genes that ghs has available. It is the concept I am discussing here.

 

[burningfire]

Aj isn't going to tell them much at all. His money talks much louder.
And what I was saying that if their resources or genes are limited, then it isn't a bad thing to introduce new techniques, genes, etc...

OK, I'll not talk about responsible cannabis breeding, since you think cannabis selected for indoor growing won't grow well outdoors.

Besides, I am not even thinking about the genes that ghs has available. It is the concept I am discussing here.

anything can look good on paper or when you conceptualize it, the fact of the matter is that we're talking about ghs..

and if arjan used his money to help them out he'd be financing organized crime, is that a much better option? financing criminal guerilla growers?