Strain Hunters - Greenhouse Seeds Co.

[ngakpa]

Baba Ku ---

you're missing the point completely

the change at issue here is the irreversible change that takes place when you introduce foreign genetics into native heirloom populations

obviously changes takes place naturally in annual populations each year, and the genetics can only be frozen in time by cloning and longterm seed preservation, an important part of conservation

but that is not the point - heirloom varieties have a unique identity, just as you do - those unique identities need to be preserved: for their intrinsic worth, for their usefulness and for their beauty

cannabis is about 50 million years old, and as diverse as the many areas of the world it has spread to

just as the fact that change takes place in your body all the time is no excuse for somebody to come along and erase your unique identity by killing you, the fact that change takes place in the genes of native cannabis populations year to year is no excuse to come along and destroy their unique qualities by introducing foreign varieties

the point is to preserve biodiversity and the unique qualities of the native plants, the product of millenia of evolution and selection

 

[Baba Ku]

In terms of museum pieces I might agree. But as far as reality goes, I think perhaps you are missing my points.
I do indeed grasp the concept of where you are coming from. I too have had similar thoughts. But I thought a little deeper...

 

[DocLeaf]

Genetics are versatile and many dichotomies may exist. Often where the 'Strain Hunter' seeks old "heirloom" seeds from the 'Traditional Farmer',, the 'Traditional Farmer' seeks new "hybridized" seeds from "visitors" to grow more bountiful crops from.

It is important to remember that many "local farmers" source seeds from non-local breeders (often in neighbouring countries) even in remote places such as Africa and the Himalayas... the remoteness of which often helps to preserve heirloom/traditional seed genetics for the future.

In some cases,, genetics have travelled back to their origins,, full circle,, perhaps selected to the most characteristic plants,, hybridized to produce better yields ,, then sent home ,, where they will be sown and grown,, and slowly homogenized to their original climate over the next few 1000 years.

Thanks to the uptake of knowledge,, people are now preserving seed genetics at a greater rate than ever before. If acting 'seed guardian' is you thing,, get on it,, we applaud it!

Peace n love

 

[Rinse]

In terms of museum pieces I might agree. But as far as reality goes, I think perhaps you are missing my points.
I do indeed grasp the concept of where you are coming from. I too have had similar thoughts. But I thought a little deeper...

Thought deeper? How?
It seems like you missed the point, the western strains that would be introduced to these countries would not only be non local but are way more manipulated by the hand of man.
They would taste different and have a different high and medicinal propeties.

Il think deeper, what if a group of people have a connection with the surrounding flora of their environment physically and spiritually? No one should intefere with it should they?

About greenhouse, Im sure they breed great strains for people who own hps, but please, thinking they have a clue at African Guerrilla farming makes me laugh, the way he tried telling the African guy which is the best pheno like he is some higher authority.

If they do try spreading their indoor weakened genetics I hope the sun scorches the plants and dries them out while the indiginous strain will not break a sweat .

 

[Baba Ku]

Il think deeper, what if a group of people have a connection with the surrounding flora of their environment physically and spiritually? No one should intefere with it should they?

I suppose the ones to decide that would be the group of people that had this spiritual connection. I think it would behoove them to preserve what they will to satisfy their own purposes.
Perhaps this group welcomes the genetic diversity that could positively effect the local population? Are we to decide that?
And if you actually think about what is happening with cannabis, you are not going to preserve a landrace anyway.
You can have the purest form of landrace seeds, and it is possible that when you grow them they will be nothing like the plants where they originated.

The Africaan farmer, who has been making an existence from the indigenous plants available to him, might be quite pleased with some genetic diversity and the possibility of him increasing his livelyhood and standard of living as a result.
The weed on the farmers land that you think is a landrace worthy of preservation, may in the eyes of the farmer be an invasive strain that harms his good crop.

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with collecting and attempting to preserve strains..any strains. But to think we are doing the Earth a favor, makes me think we have fallen victim to more vanity.
It is my belief that the Earth will do what it will and as it will for reasons that are far from the business or control of us.

You know...I think just about every indigenous strain known has it's genes in the makeup of a commercial cultivar somewhere. And if these genes are there, are they really lost? -Or, perhaps they are there for us to enjoy and do with as we please?

 

[RollmeoneKenobi]

I wasn't talking about the fem seed going hermie due to stress! I was referring to the pollen from landrace males that make up a considerable amount of dust in the air. You do realise if you grow outside a crop can get accidently pollenated from males miles away?

 

[Rinse]

if you actually think about what is happening with cannabis, you are not going to preserve a landrace anyway.

I do think about what is happening to cannabis, thats why preserving landraces is so important.

You can have the purest form of landrace seeds, and it is possible that when you grow them they will be nothing like the plants where they originated.

This is true, same applies to hybrids.

The Africaan farmer, who has been making an existence from the indigenous plants available to him, might be quite pleased with some genetic diversity and the possibility of him increasing his livelyhood and standard of living as a result.

Lol how will he increase his livelyhood and "standard of living" as a result?
Dutch strains will not grow better than African strains in Africa.

The weed on the farmers land that you think is a landrace worthy of preservation, may in the eyes of the farmer be an invasive strain that harms his good crop.

Im talking about his good crop, the Malawi is a precious and legendary strain truly worthy of preservation.

I don't think there is anything at all wrong with collecting and attempting to preserve strains..any strains. But to think we are doing the Earth a favor, makes me think we have fallen victim to more vanity.
It is my belief that the Earth will do what it will and as it will for reasons that are far from the business or control of us.

Who mentioned doing the earth a favor?
Im talking against idiots (not greenhouse, anyone) potentially ruining a sacred genepool, I mean these are ancient african plants you wont ever get weed like this if its gone.
One generation of cross pollination and its fukd, unique cannabinoid profile finito.

Look in my garden you will see strains landrace and hybrid from everywhere I even make my own hybrids its simple yet amazing crossing strains, hybrids are great.
But when it comes to ancient genepools that have been bred by a group of people for many generations you just cant fuk with it.

 

[burningfire]

You know...I think just about every indigenous strain known has it's genes in the makeup of a commercial cultivar somewhere. And if these genes are there, are they really lost? -Or, perhaps they are there for us to enjoy and do with as we please?

I doubt that is true. It's not true for chickpeas and other vegetables, scientists go to far remote locations to collect seeds to introduce survival genes to western crops.

the green revolution might have saved a number of people from famine but most of these benefactors grow plants suited for controlled environment that will give very poor results when grown in exotic locales.

there's a story about agronomists breeding quinoa to remove the saponin content ( a midly toxic agent that coats the seed, which can be easily washed before consumption ) the south american growers lost that year's crop to the birds because of the low saponin content, plants thrive in certain habitats for a reason, you can say that nature will take care of the selection but when you talk about livelihood, the real story isn't always positive.

 

[Baba Ku]

I hate to have these discussions because sometimes people get all up in the air over things that they only think they understand. They make the rules in their minds and have trouble seeing another viewpoint. This is the part I was talking about earlier when I mentioned the ego and vanity of man.

I do think about what is happening to cannabis, thats why preserving landraces is so important.

And you think about how cannabis is constantly changing? Even when grown isolated from other genes it is under a constant change. And if anyone has ever grown out a large population of ANY indigenous variety, they find that it is greatly diverse.
So, let's say you collect what you think is a preservation of that strain. How many seeds? And if you keep these seeds say for a mere decade, do you think you have now what is growing in the field they were originally taken from? No, you have an earlier version of those genes. All you really have is a snapshot in time.
See, the always changing thing is what you need to think about, not how righteous you think saving some seeds are.

This is true, same applies to hybrids.

I fail to see the point?

Lol how will he increase his livelyhood and "standard of living" as a result?
Dutch strains will not grow better than African strains in Africa.

Oh, I don't know, maybe the weed he was making a living on is spindly and lacking heft. And just maybe the introduction of foreign genes could increase the heft and value of his weed? -Causing him to be more fruitful and able to serve his family better.
Who are you to say he should keep his crop as it is? And for what, your take on what you think needs to be preserved?
And just how do you know what will and what won't grow better in Africa? Perhaps the farmer could be worked with to improve his crops, and using foreign genes to do so? Do you realize that this has been the backbone of horticulture for thousands of years?
The farmer has viable things in mind, not some self righteous, and futile, quest to keep things the same.

Im talking about his good crop, the Malawi is a precious and legendary strain truly worthy of preservation.

Again, let's let him do the talking. And how many of the indigenous farmers will show you the real deal Malawi Gold? Do you think they even know what that is? Do you? And how many of these farmers think maybe you are whacked when you ask about such a thing?

Who mentioned doing the earth a favor?
Im talking against idiots (not greenhouse, anyone) potentially ruining a sacred genepool, I mean these are ancient african plants you wont ever get weed like this if its gone.
One generation of cross pollination and its fukd, unique cannabinoid profile finito.

First off, I don't think you can point us to these particular fields of weed that have these specific names. And just who deemed these plants untouchable and sacred? You?
And NO these are NOT ancient plants, because the only ancient plants that will be around would be from a saved seed lot, from ancient times. Do we not yet understand that cannabis is constantly changing as it grows?

Look in my garden you will see strains landrace and hybrid from everywhere I even make my own hybrids its simple yet amazing crossing strains, hybrids are great.
But when it comes to ancient genepools that have been bred by a group of people for many generations you just cant fuk with it.

That all sounds good, but it hasn't made the case, IMO.

If you want to preserve landrace genes, then work an indigenous plant to stability. But realize that you are only preserving the phenotype that YOU picked to work with, and not the strain as a whole. And doing so is fine and well in my book, but just who is the sacred one that decided that the diversity of a stain should be fixed into a small number of expressions?
Righteous moves, maybe..but only in the minds of men.

 

[Baba Ku]

I doubt that is true. It's not true for chickpeas and other vegetables, scientists go to far remote locations to collect seeds to introduce survival genes to western crops.

Cannabis is not garbanzo beans, or a vegetable at all for that matter.
And if it makes sense that indigenous genes can be introduced to improve a western species of vegetable, why does it not make sense that a western flower cannot be introduced to an indigenous species of flower to improve it? Improvement for the farmer is the key.

I suspect the answer to most of my questions are more speculation than anything.

 

[burningfire]

Cannabis is not garbanzo beans, or a vegetable at all for that matter.
And if it makes sense that indigenous genes can be introduced to improve a western species of vegetable, why does it not make sense that a western flower cannot be introduced to an indigenous species of flower to improve it? Improvement for the farmer is the key.

I suspect the answer to most of my questions are more speculation than anything.

why should it be treated any differently? it's a source of food for many. explain to me why it should be treated differently?

and I'm not saying introducing genes to improve yield is a bad idea if diversity is preserved, without diversity one bad growing season and all the high yielding plants will turn into a moldy mess.

who knows anyway, nature does a good job at selecting future generations. people in this thread might just be slightly overreacting

 

[Baba Ku]

I am curious if anyone can name us an indigenous strain that has been decimated and lost due to man not preserving the genes?

 

[burningfire]

I am curious if anyone can name us an indigenous strain that has been decimated and lost due to man not preserving the genes?

I am sure plenty of mexican strains have been decimated, probably some jamaican, and some american strains as well ( even if they're not even mildly potent, ditch weed has some desirable genes ) of course we can't blame the last one of the introduction of western genetics, but how are you supposed to ensure diversity when law enforcement eradicates the plant.

I am sure it's only a matter of time.

 

[Baba Ku]

I don't think cannabis is indigenous to Mexico, Jamaica, or America. Everything grown in those places came from somewhere else.

 

[ngakpa]

Mexico, Jamaica, Colombia and others --- anywhere near the USA

the strains originated in East and South India and arrived in South and Central America with Indian indentured labourers

a history of about 150 years in those regions, developing unique local characteristics - now all but completely lost from their regions - e.g. Oaxacan Golds, Colombian Golds, Panama Reds

you put "lost due to man not preserving the genes"

the point is they were lost by ignorant or indifferent people and organisations introducing "improved" Dutch/American genetics

preserving outside the landrace region is trivial compared to maintaining the lines in situ (i.e. not introducing foreign genes)

for an example of the problems have a look at what Dutch genetics do when grown in Jamaica - small height, low yields, poor strenght due to uncontrolled crossing of hybrids --- which is why you will find Jamaican growers looking to grow old heirloom lines if they can find them

---

by contrast to areas near the USA market, law enforcement and the development of mafia growing organisations alone has fucked up the quality in Kerala, for example, where a modern high yielding Kerala strain is used... not the old garden heirloom vars.

 

[Dr_Tre]

Baba Ku, I'm afraid you are not quite aware of what you are talking about.
"Cannabis constantly changing" - this is a very broad statement and it's true but not as you imagine it.Evolution is (usually) a very slow process, especially in local varieties that are perfectly adapted to the local conditions.You know, for example crocodiles have not changed since the dinosaurs age.Landraces produce very similar plants year after year, that's why they call them "strains" and people can tell if they are smoking Malawi or Afghani.In an untouched local population, you will not see drastic changes in time.You can take 1000 Malawi seeds, grow them in Malawi, let open pollination, grow the seeds and even if you do this for many years you will still get pretty similar plants.That is, of course, unless some ignorant dumbass grows skunk nearby.

Another thing you have to consider:in nature, diversity means stability.Landrace strains are a heritage that the generation before us gave us to keep and to give to our children.Landraces are a treasure that insures genetic diversity and survival of the cannabis species.Landraces are not the past they are the future of cannabis!

And finally highwise:the high of most modern bred strains is quite similar, they only differ in things like smell, yield or color.On the other hand landraces have unique high, imo, the difference in quality of high are much bigger.If only people knew what vast variety of effects could cannabis produce...

 

[lastemperor]

Baba Ku, I'm afraid you are not quite aware of what you are talking about.
"Cannabis constantly changing" - this is a very broad statement and it's true but not as you imagine it.Evolution is (usually) a very slow process, especially in local varieties that are perfectly adapted to the local conditions.You know, for example crocodiles have not changed since the dinosaurs age.Landraces produce very similar plants year after year, that's why they call them "strains" and people can tell if they are smoking Malawi or Afghani.In an untouched local population, you will not see drastic changes in time.You can take 1000 Malawi seeds, grow them in Malawi, let open pollination, grow the seeds and even if you do this for many years you will still get pretty similar plants.That is, of course, unless some ignorant dumbass does not grow skunk nearby.

Another thing you have to consider:in nature, diversity means stability.Landrace strains are a heritage that the generation before us gave us to keep and to give to our children.Landraces are a treasure that insures genetic diversity and survival of the cannabis species.Landraces are not the past they are the future of cannabis!

And finally highwise:the high of most modern bred strains is quite similar, they only differ in things like smell, yield or color.On the other hand landraces have unique high, imo, the difference in quality of high are much bigger.If only people knew what vast variety of effects could cannabis produce...

Amen to that, its not difficult to understand. Its LOGIC, Baba Ku you are totally missing the point here.

 

[Rinse]

I hate to have these discussions because sometimes people get all up in the air over things that they only think they understand. They make the rules in their minds and have trouble seeing another viewpoint. This is the part I was talking about earlier when I mentioned the ego and vanity of man.

Nothing wrong with ego and this has nothing to do with vanity.

And you think about how cannabis is constantly changing? Even when grown isolated from other genes it is under a constant change. And if anyone has ever grown out a large population of ANY indigenous variety, they find that it is greatly diverse.

I know this, it does not change my point.
Just as there are heirloom vegetables grown by people who have grown them for generations I wouldnt want to see their crops invaded by modern hybrids.

Go online and search heirloom vegetable seeds you will find plenty of sites selling them now because their is a demand for them, people have realized that although they may not always be as early or as big as the hybrids, they often taste better and have something special about them.

So, let's say you collect what you think is a preservation of that strain. How many seeds? And if you keep these seeds say for a mere decade, do you think you have now what is growing in the field they were originally taken from? No, you have an earlier version of those genes. All you really have is a snapshot in time.
See, the always changing thing is what you need to think about, not how righteous you think saving some seeds are.

READ:

preserving outside the landrace region is trivial compared to maintaining the lines in situ (i.e. not introducing foreign genes)

...............................................................................................................

And just how do you know what will and what won't grow better in Africa?

Common Sense

Perhaps the farmer could be worked with to improve his crops, and using foreign genes to do so? Do you realize that this has been the backbone of horticulture for thousands of years?

Do you realize Malawi Cannabis has been grown in the same scorching sun, dry mud, and other conditions for a very long time?
Do you realize dutch strains have been pampered indoors with electric lights and given lots of nutrients in the form of synthetic chemicals?

The farmer has viable things in mind, not some self righteous, and futile, quest to keep things the same.

When all the genes are mixed and their is no diversity left regret will insue.

First off, I don't think you can point us to these particular fields of weed that have these specific names. And just who deemed these plants untouchable and sacred? You?

Yes. Certain people should sometimes just stop snooting their noses in Africa. It is people like this that have no clue about history and never learn.

And NO these are NOT ancient plants.

Yes they are.

It is you who fails to see something.
Maybe its me who isnt explaining it well enough,
These African plants have properties the western strains do not have.
Ask anyone who has smoked the real deal.
To lose these ancient strains would be a great loss.

 

[Rinse]

Baba Ku, I'm afraid you are not quite aware of what you are talking about.
"Cannabis constantly changing" - this is a very broad statement and it's true but not as you imagine it.Evolution is (usually) a very slow process, especially in local varieties that are perfectly adapted to the local conditions.You know, for example crocodiles have not changed since the dinosaurs age.Landraces produce very similar plants year after year, that's why they call them "strains" and people can tell if they are smoking Malawi or Afghani.In an untouched local population, you will not see drastic changes in time.You can take 1000 Malawi seeds, grow them in Malawi, let open pollination, grow the seeds and even if you do this for many years you will still get pretty similar plants.That is, of course, unless some ignorant dumbass does not grow skunk nearby.

Another thing you have to consider:in nature, diversity means stability.Landrace strains are a heritage that the generation before us gave us to keep and to give to our children.Landraces are a treasure that insures genetic diversity and survival of the cannabis species.Landraces are not the past they are the future of cannabis!

And finally highwise:the high of most modern bred strains is quite similar, they only differ in things like smell, yield or color.On the other hand landraces have unique high, imo, the difference in quality of high are much bigger.If only people knew what vast variety of effects could cannabis produce...

And...K+

 

[ngakpa]

De Tre --- thanks for posting, you put it very clearly

one thing - I'm sure what you meant to put was: "unless some ignorant dumbass grows skunk nearby"

another essential point - because of the diversity within heirloom populations they also have much better adaptive ability

it's much easier for a grower with heirloom crops to produce their own seeds year on year - the plants will have a lot more vigour and disease resistance, and by keeping seeds of the best performing plants you can develop a strain perfectly adapted to your conditions


Hybrid ("F1") seed is the result of a cross between two different , but heavily inbred parents. Seed you save from these plants will either be sterile or a give a whole mix of shapes and types, usually producing a poor crop.

Only the seed company knows what the parents are, thus only they can produce that particular variety. If you want to grow it, you have no other source - good for the seed companies but not for you! Small growers should be able to keep their own seeds, selecting each year the best plants most suitable for their own land and conditions.

Yes, there are a few exceptions, but in general, the hybrid seed business has been a public relations victory over the small grower. For example, you will soon see more and more hybrid leek seed offered to you. This is because the supermarkets have set incredibly rigid limits on leek size, and the only way to achieve this is through hybridising two inbred varieties, so all leek seed production is switching to hybrids.

You will be told that these new leeks are 'more uniform', 'straighter' and so on. But what about flavour and adaptability? People seem to forget that we want to eat & enjoy these things - food is not just a commodity!

Despite common urban myths, there is no magic about hybrids. So-called "hybrid vigour" is the simple fact that good hybrid seed is better than bad real seed, and that sadly much of the real seed you get now has been badly maintained. But good real seed - which admittedly requires time, care and patience to produce and maintain - must, by virtue of the genetics of these things, be just as good, and in fact much more adaptable to different soils.

The key here is that it takes less manpower to make the hybrid seed, so the wholesale seed growers are much happier to let the old varieties fade away.

And as for the cost of hybrid seed, this is another mystery. Hybrids are not made by hand. Yes, they were in the past, but not for many years now. Most hybrid pollination nowadays is done by chemical sprays, not hand pollination, so hybrid seed shouldn't be any more expensive than other seed. There may be a slight extra cost associated with the spraying, but it certainly doesn't justify the high prices and tiny packets some companies are offering.

Basically, seeds are now bred for large industrial farms (which is where the money is) and you, the home grower, just get fobbed off with a few of the same thing. Modern advert copywriting sometimes tries to disguise this. So when you're offered something that's 'good for freezing', what they mean is that it was bred to ripen all at once for machine harvesting & you'll get a glut.

Here are a few examples from 2004 catalogues that we found: How about 'really uniform fruit' - which often means 'inbred for the supermarket, narrow genetic base, may not adapt to your soil'. Or 'straight long shanks' usually means 'bred to fit the packing machine.' Or the best one yet - 'Leafless peas - easy to find the pods' translates as 'much smaller yield (the plants have no leaves !) - but at least now we've got rid of the leaves we can harvest them with a combine.' What a sad situation this is, with marketing people rather than gardeners writing the descriptions in modern seed catalogues.

In summary, hybrid seed can indeed have advantages for the industrial-chemical farmer who wants to harvest all at once. But for the small home grower who wants a good yield over a long period, real seeds are usually more productive.

This has been shown time and time again, and we think that once you have tried the real open-pollinated varieties we have found, you will agree.