Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[plastochron]

Most everywhere I work, Fe is off the charts.

Here you can put a magnet on the soil and the soil sticks to the magnet.

This is why it is important the right type soil analysis be used to understand where you are. There is only one place on my farm that needs iron, there the soil is white, it is a calcium carbonate mine and has less than 1 ppm of iron. But instead of applying iron, we just add 30 lbs of the high iron soil instead per plant.

Not many soils that I have seen have Fe deficiency. In fact, most have toxicities. Realize that Fe deficiencies and toxicities look a like to the eye! Beware!

When I apply foliar metals and that is not often, I use Albion or Baicor amino acid chelates. The dosis per acre is tiny. Their multimineral at Albion is spectacular, I add the Mn, Zn and Cu chelates to the multimineral to dilute the Fe in the multi... works great!

One last point, if you read back a bit you will find that Cannabinoid article with the calculated base distributions.... posted it a couple of times. Go back and look at the soil versus the leaf analysis. Look at the Fe/Mn ratios in the soil. Then look at the Fe/Mn ratios in the foliage....

Then look at sample number 2 and look at the Fe/Mn in soil and leaf....

What I have recently realized is that in parts of the world with a balanced Fe/Mn ratio, of say 1 to 1, even 1/2 or 1/3,those soils out produce in quality and yields a soil that is dominated by Fe... blueberries is an amazing example. Pineapple is another. The yield differences can be upto to 200% and qualitative difference is incredible where Fe is dominated or equal to Mn.

thank you for the rapid response! i will look back through the thread to find the posts you mentioned.

most of the Fe toxicities i've seen (granted this is much more in hydro and big pots than field soil) appear as symptoms of Mn and/or Zn deficiency... especially when using a ton of CalMag

 

[slownickel]

Base distributions of Cannabinoid Profile and Elemental Uptake Article

Base distributions of Cannabinoid Profile and Elemental Uptake Article

Here you go....

Read the whole article, the ratios, the concepts, the Ca/Mg ratios!!!

This one article blows a lot of the woo woo juice theories out of the water, especially Mg.

Note the critical importance of Mn.

The P2O5/Ca ratio as well!!!!

 

[plastochron]

you're making it too easy! very interesting... have not read in entirety yet but (with all due respect) i have some questions about the experimental design.

just checked out the materials and methods section really quickly and noticed that the propagules were from seed, replicated 5x, and have only two different letters to denote statistically significant differences with P value >5% and based on all of the treatments that fell into the 'a' category it appears that there were some massive standard deviations.

lastly, as a hort guy (as opposed to agronomy) my knee jerk reaction is to over analyze any and all studies where they put field soil into containers... especially when they do not publish the physical properties of the soils.

thank you much SN

 

[Dakine]

So for every gallon of soil I added,1-Tsp of Gypsum, and 1/2Tsp of Lime, and 1/8Tsp of Oystershells.. Its been about 2-3wks since I've added those to the top of my pots and then topped with fresh soil. Just to add, I flushed them right before I added everything. Flushed with 7.0ph Filtered Tap Water.

-It looks like the clawing has stopped spreading on MOST of the plants. But those plants have started yellowing and are in flower with about 1 month left..
-The plants in veg arent really showing the "claw" anymore but the leaves are drooping. It almost looks like the start of dehydration. But im sure its from not enough light hitting them, due to me working on my veg area at the moment. So atleast it doesnt seem like more nute problems..

-The plants I have outside flowering, are in the same exact soil, and get fed/watered with the same exact water and/or nutes if needed.. I did add 1/2Tsp of OysterShells Per Gallon of Soil. Did it since I just transferred them from inside veg mode to outside flower mode, so they had over 2 months to go...
- I just dont understand why the girls outside look fricken beautiful. They even had A couple clawing leaves the day I took them outside.. BUT no leaves are drooping, or clawing, or showing very noticeable deficiencies... Not 1 single finger on A fan is drooping 1 bit, the leaves are perfectly horizontal, unlike alot of the girls inside lol..

So im not really sure on whats going on.. Is being under the sun making them use more/less of certain nutes? Is the "claw" being caused by something else and not the nitrogen toxicity everyone is saying?

Well I did just think about it lol.. Can going into flower mode have been the answer? They like/use more/less of certain nutes when in flower and in Veg.. But dont they use less Nitrogen in flower, so that would contradict what im saying. Since that would mean the claw would get even worst?

Sorry if its in your thread Slo, but it kinda does have to deal with the topic.. Plus you said you'd help me lol! Thanks alot so far everyone, trying to solve my problems and not giving up and starting new is whats keeping me interested..

EDIT- For those who dont know the soil is FFOF that I've kept in rubbermaid bins and have kept moist and I've watered A couple times with Black Strap and Great White Shark.

 

[slownickel]

So for every gallon of soil I added,1-Tsp of Gypsum, and 1/2Tsp of Lime, and 1/8Tsp of Oystershells.. Its been about 2-3wks since I've added those to the top of my pots and then topped with fresh soil. Just to add, I flushed them right before I added everything. Flushed with 7.0ph Filtered Tap Water.

-It looks like the clawing has stopped spreading on MOST of the plants. But those plants have started yellowing and are in flower with about 1 month left..
-The plants in veg arent really showing the "claw" anymore but the leaves are drooping. It almost looks like the start of dehydration. But im sure its from not enough light hitting them, due to me working on my veg area at the moment. So atleast it doesnt seem like more nute problems..

-The plants I have outside flowering, are in the same exact soil, and get fed/watered with the same exact water and/or nutes if needed.. I did add 1/2Tsp of OysterShells Per Gallon of Soil. Did it since I just transferred them from inside veg mode to outside flower mode, so they had over 2 months to go...
- I just dont understand why the girls outside look fricken beautiful. They even had A couple clawing leaves the day I took them outside.. BUT no leaves are drooping, or clawing, or showing very noticeable deficiencies... Not 1 single finger on A fan is drooping 1 bit, the leaves are perfectly horizontal, unlike alot of the girls inside lol..

So im not really sure on whats going on.. Is being under the sun making them use more/less of certain nutes? Is the "claw" being caused by something else and not the nitrogen toxicity everyone is saying?

Well I did just think about it lol.. Can going into flower mode have been the answer? They like/use more/less of certain nutes when in flower and in Veg.. But dont they use less Nitrogen in flower, so that would contradict what im saying. Since that would mean the claw would get even worst?

Sorry if its in your thread Slo, but it kinda does have to deal with the topic.. Plus you said you'd help me lol! Thanks alot so far everyone, trying to solve my problems and not giving up and starting new is whats keeping me interested..

EDIT- For those who dont know the soil is FFOF that I've kept in rubbermaid bins and have kept moist and I've watered A couple times with Black Strap and Great White Shark.

How about some photos of the drooping and fading?

Really hard to jump in without a soil analysis....

Sounds like you are over watering indoors..... but I am guessing.

 

[BrainSellz]

A little rotation.

A little rotation.

Pics from Slow's farm:
View Image View Image View Image

Sorry, don't know how to rotate images on my phone.

A little help . The limes look outstanding. The limes I see around here look like green rocks with no juice.

 

[slownickel]

Hey SlowN, what is that white residue on your water channel? Also, is that the last water your farm has seen since that picture?

That is called sodium chloride.... aka SALT. The photo op was to show folks what is in that "soil". Yet, you see little if no salt damage in the trees....

 

[slownickel]

Also, is that the last water your farm has seen since that picture?

I think we got one or two more irrigations in after this photo. But yes, we are at day 74 and counting with no water....

 

[blkantha]

Hi slow,
Any of your exp or Univ research that put in numbers saying that maintaining 85% base Ca with reasonable OM % twate requirements of plants can be reduced or maintained compared to other soil conditions where same plants are grown

 

[slownickel]

Hi slow,
Any of your exp or Univ research that put in numbers saying that maintaining 85% base Ca with reasonable OM % twate requirements of plants can be reduced or maintained compared to other soil conditions where same plants are grown

If you read Tiedjens, he actually lowered his fertilization greatly.

At 85% Ca, he was aiming at 10% Mg and 3 to 5% K.

One must be careful though to maintain minimum levels of Mg and K.... especially K. With all those new roots, the will be feeding heavy.

 

[blkantha]

Sorry I did typo mistake, asking on the water requirements with 85% base Ca

 

[Dakine]

I actually sent the FFOF sample in today.. I used that form thing from the link you gave me..

I water every other day or longer. Pots will be a lot lighter and I'll dig a couple inches down and it'll be dry

I'll try to get some pics up when I get home... yah and some of the limes I see down here look fine or have bumps on em and it's like dry inside when u cut em open

 

[slownickel]

Sorry I did typo mistake, asking on the water requirements with 85% base Ca

Water is a different subject. Realize that with more Calcium you will have more roots. Evaporation is evaporation. Calcium will not change that. However, if you have more roots down deep, the plant will pull more water from the subsoil as there will be more air there for them to prosper.

You still need to "read" your plants regarding water, what you will see is that they will begin asking for less water as they have access to more down deeper. Sometimes this takes a bit of time.

Tell us what you are seeing on your crops?

 

[blkantha]

I do not wait to see plant showing signs of dryness for watering plants., but observation is with leaves drooping down when water is less fed in summer..but few metres away same plants do well with out any water supply during summer. Wondering the profile of soil makes any difference

 

[Space Case]

Still in 65's? Same soil or new? Nice looking leaves though. I get the same slight red coming in on the petiole for the last few grows and it seems to get worse as I continue with this soil. I've got too much Mg and over 500ppm P but I think the benefit of more P would outweigh the micro antagonism.

How much of that P is really available though? I get good responses from MKP when I have a need for both P and K, and I've been adding bone meal to this clay mix also, to up the P (and a little more Ca). My first round indoors, we'll see how she goes.

Last night I dissolved some VanSil with Apple Cider Vinegar, small amount just to try. But I ran the solution through a fine sieve to make sure there were not small undissolved pieces and it was a nice light brown liquid. I foliar fed this to my plants last night (along with some B, Mn, Zn, Cu, and Mo). Lets see how they like it in the next few days...

 

[calisun]

Just read your water analysis, something strange there. The F sample which is filtered has twice as much bicarbonate in it. At 3 meq of bicarbonates, you are not going to have a lot of calcium available to your plant. That water is going to grab the soluble calcium and make carbonate.

Which also means that your calcium number is way over stated and you should be getting ammonium acetate at a pH of 8.2 to understand how much of that calcium is really there.

Answer? hahahaha GYPSUM!

Happy New Year!

lol nice, I've been using gypsum outside but now I will use a little indoors too. Yeah I've been concerned with the amount of bicarbonates in my water too. I don't know why it is higher in the filtered water. I'm going to take some new water tests and look into getting a different water filter. I've been using the filtered water for the outdoor plants since I only do a few. I wonder if it would be better using the unfiltered water. Maybe I'll just run the garden water through a uv light to kill the coliform. What's your thoughts on that. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Happy new year

 

[Robrites]

Three things:

1. Wrong thread for this, but I hope it's ok

2. I know everybody hates me

3. I know everybody hates Glenn Beck.

If we can get past that, I thought I would share a moment I had on the radio today.
https://soundcloud.com/glennbeck/glenn-beck-daily-radio-1217-hour-2
I was listening last week, they had a guest host on, and I heard a story where I saw an opening for the cannabis discussion to begin on a nation radio program. Glenn would never had taken the call, but the guest host took the call and a decent conversation continued. Love that host as well, but I figured the call volume would be down, and I sacked up and took the chance. Sorry if some of the stuff was slightly inaccurate, or on the other side of the isle than you, but hey, I am trying to spread the word and I was a little nervous.

I was the guy in the first couple minutes, under the alias Geoff.

Well, Ya got number 2 right!

Kidding...Just had to.

 

[slownickel]

lol nice, I've been using gypsum outside but now I will use a little indoors too. Yeah I've been concerned with the amount of bicarbonates in my water too. I don't know why it is higher in the filtered water. I'm going to take some new water tests and look into getting a different water filter. I've been using the filtered water for the outdoor plants since I only do a few. I wonder if it would be better using the unfiltered water. Maybe I'll just run the garden water through a uv light to kill the coliform. What's your thoughts on that. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Happy new year

Maybe you were super stoned and got the labels backwards?

Not too sure about that lab to be honest....

 

[orechron]

So what you going to pop??? More OG for sure. Anything new on the agenda? You were shopping heavy... what did you bring back?

Some expensive stuff and some reasonably priced stuff. Aficionado seeds were stupid overpriced and I think if I were to think about it for a while longer I would've not bought them. South Fork gear was priced in the ballpark of what I'd consider fair for a ten pack, $60 I think. I also grabbed stuff from pacific nw roots, gage green, rebel grown. I was running around impulse shopping.

A little help

Thanks buddy.

How much of that P is really available though? I get good responses from MKP when I have a need for both P and K, and I've been adding bone meal to this clay mix also, to up the P (and a little more Ca). My first round indoors, we'll see how she goes.

Last night I dissolved some VanSil with Apple Cider Vinegar, small amount just to try. But I ran the solution through a fine sieve to make sure there were not small undissolved pieces and it was a nice light brown liquid. I foliar fed this to my plants last night (along with some B, Mn, Zn, Cu, and Mo). Lets see how they like it in the next few days...

Yeah thats why I was asking the question earlier about Ca and P. It doesn't appear that much is available anymore. Maybe bound to calcium and if thats the case there might be less micronutrient antagonism. Keep us updated.

2. I know everybody hates me

3. I know everybody hates Glenn Beck.

 

[calisun]

Maybe you were super stoned and got the labels backwards?

Not too sure about that lab to be honest....

haha maybe but I really doubt it my containers were pre labeled and in separate areas. If there was a mix up I'm sure it was on their end. The next tests will tell. I'll give spectrum a try. The irrigation water suitability test looks like it should cover everything but bacteria.