Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[orechron]

The numbers you posted on the coots mix is exactly what I have noticed in the past. Have you tested after a season? Depending on the feeds, most the time the Ca comes in around 70-75% after all the oyster shells break down. IME at least. Most people are not raising Ca levels over the season, so I assume those higher levels are purely due to oyster shells breaking down.

Problem with FFOF after a cup of Ca sulfates, is the N levels are almost always WAY high. Last test they came in around 300+ ppms of N.

Edit: that nectar of the gods sounds like great soil! I want some! Seems like the nutrient company makes great soil, because they can raise those Ca levels. Nectar of the Gods is also the company that has raised the Ca levels in their nutrients creating one of the best hydroponic lines available..... IMO. I won the photo contest over at The Farm, and nector was one of the prizes. I declined because they are not "organic" but mostly organic as they put it. I think they use urea and N-furic. (sp?) However, like a nutrient company, they made the mix light so you have to fertilize more often. Also easier to ship I imagine. I bet the soil they use outdoors has top soil added, just a guess.

I got the 707 and green bag from logan. I am sending new tests out this week (or next) for Spectrum with both mixes. I will post up in this thread when I get the results.

I have not tested coots after a season or indoor run. Outdoors I always grew in native soil, indoors I've been growing in the same peat based mix for a few years, before that various other things like coco. I would think you wouldn't get such a drastic Ca increase because mehlich reagent is supposed to dissolve everything. Plus I think they grind the sample.

I wouldn't jump on nectars soil right away. Test your own first. If you do I'll shoot you a pm with my exact result and go from there. They do focus on calcium though in general. In my opinion they are better than most nutrient lines out there. If I were using it I'd probably rotate in some AgSil doses, depending on the media. If they use N-pHuric its probably as a stabilizer and small add of N and S.


FYI 707 tested like crap, so did roots organic.

Peat does make sense for us desert growers, because it is acidic and our water and our native soils are all alkaline. But these indoor guys think peat only works when you dump a ton of carbonate on it to buffer it, but they can't tell you why, its just "what the recipe calls for".

Many of the peat samples I've sent in were between 4.8 and 5.3 pH. When its your entire base or a large part of it carbonates or silicates are a must. After hearing where your soil is I can see why its attractive though.

With all that said, my plants are in left over soil samples, peat, rice hulls, biochar rice hulls, composted wood chips and worm castings. Plus a large enough quantity of gypsum so that I can see it and a bit of triple super phosphate.

If we discussed ecology, limited resources, etc. etc... I am a sinner. If you discuss salts in organics, I am a sinner. Potassium sulfate, k-mag, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium borate, copper sulfate etc.. are all salts. Sorry, but I can't farm without them and all are considered organic in both Europe and the US, so that is the definition of organic that I use. I use triple super phosphate in my organic limes and avocado. Given we don't harvest til the 3rd year, we are happy to wait to be considered organic as long as I have my triple.... I apply between a pound or so per hole.... For my microbiology friends, mycos don't work well here. With our potassium and chloride levels so high, we have to raise our P high to get any response. I tried over and over, and in many crops. Just won't work here. Everything depends on where you are standing.

The economics won't let me use peat in an avocado or lime tree. However, the rest of the things that I mentioned, I can use legally in my organic farms. I challenge anyone to find a better avocado, lime or sweet potato anywhere. All bets taken.

The others that use peat in their mixes are pretty much forced to add carbonate to get the pH up, what else could they do?

I would never tell anyone to use dolomite. (My Mg source is K-Mag to the soil and Mg Sulfate foliar). If a soil is pure sand, I will apply Mg Sulfate to get the web bulb to open up under the drip line.... not much though.

I'm curious about all this heavy use of Calcium and Phosphorus. The two form a strong bond and you can read, for example that rock phosphates shouldn't be considered a calcium supplier even though a large percentage of the material is Ca. It makes me wonder how much of the calcium I've added to my media over the years is unavailable now for this reason. In natural systems you'll have mycorrhizal fungi breaking that bond, but in our unnatural grows do we just have to keep mixing in both constantly to get the desired effect? Its doesn't seem like a good equilibrium is possible for a reasonable amount of time.

Take gypsum in the soil: Calcium and sulphate dissolve, but in the presence of high phosphate levels will the calcium bond with it right away while the sulphate finds an other cation?

 

[slownickel]

I'm curious about all this heavy use of Calcium and Phosphorus. The two form a strong bond and you can read, for example that rock phosphates shouldn't be considered a calcium supplier even though a large percentage of the material is Ca. It makes me wonder how much of the calcium I've added to my media over the years is unavailable now for this reason. In natural systems you'll have mycorrhizal fungi breaking that bond, but in our unnatural grows do we just have to keep mixing in both constantly to get the desired effect? Its doesn't seem like a good equilibrium is possible for a reasonable amount of time.

Take gypsum in the soil: Calcium and sulphate dissolve, but in the presence of high phosphate levels will the calcium bond with it right away while the sulphate finds an other cation?

Orchster,

You hit a very good point and thanks for bringing it up! Firstly, I don't ever count on the calcium in calcium phosphate, doesn't go into my Ca calculations. The quantity is tiny. It is however, a calcium source.

Calcium phosphate comes from rock phosphate. There are some folks that sell calcium phosphate and send you rock phosphate. There is colloidal phos and even soft rock phosphate, however, those will not supply a sufficient short term annual with enough phosphorus ever.... maybe after a couple of years reacting, sure. The problem is that we need high P to be able to deal with all the K you guys are dumping on and using in your mixes (EWC and compost). God bless the myco guys, but I cannot rely on the mycos nor the P solubalizing bacterias to make phos available for an annual. Most especially if I have a neutral or alkaline pH water. The soil/water dynamic is so important. Folks tend to ignore that.

When I speak of calcium phosphate I refer to super simple phosphate of calcium. This has been acidified one time with sulfuric acid. Then there is triple super phosphate which has been hit three times with sulfuric acid.

I always mix my phosphorus source with pure organic material prior to mixing it into the soil. Gypsum can be applied on the top of the soil after the mix is made. Not before. Here in Peru, I do apply gypsum at the bottom of the hole in quantities to prevent the salts coming back up ever.... and I mix in about 10 lbs or so of gypsum into my soil, but this is a calculation to wash away the sodium that is present. You all don't have this problem. Peru is different, these are salty soils. Yet, I outproduce a Mexican lime grower by 6 to 10 times per tree!

Mixes should be made with bone meal and calcium carbonate to get the pH correct. Then top dress with gypsum.

We use gypsum as a calcium application several times over the season after our trees are established.

I have one grape grower that always wants to see gypsum in piles under the dripper (he was voted the second best grape grower in the world by the Chinese importers association, the first was a Cali grower. The third was a Chilean grower). From day 1 until 30 days prior to harvest.... imagine.

Phosphorus needs to be applied where you need it as it is NOT MOBILE in the soil.

No need to mix in gypsum in a mix.

Add it on top later.

 

[Natural Farmer]

Have you run this mix before? If so, how did it do?

There are too many variables and no real data.

My crystal ball broke last year.... haven't been the same since....

Sorry pal, I thought I told you more about it somewhere else. Yeah its hybrid of recipe made two runs and rounding the last turn now in flower. Slightly different on this new recipe so it will need a fresh test.

PH of mix comes out at 6.3-6.4. My water is at 6.8.Bowling balls work with enough windex.

 

[slownickel]

Sorry pal, I thought I told you more about it somewhere else. Yeah its hybrid of recipe made two runs and rounding the last turn now in flower. Slightly different on this new recipe so it will need a fresh test.

PH of mix comes out at 6.3-6.4. My water is at 6.8.Bowling balls work with enough windex.

How many ppms in your water?

 

[Natural Farmer]

60-65ppm

 

[slownickel]

Good water.

 

[plastochron]

sub'd. great thank. keep dropping knowledge.

i've got a few questions for you:

1) all things being equal, if your base cation saturation ratio is on point do you still feel that ca foliars can provide benefit? i'm thinking ca-b foliars in particular during transition to bloom.

2) do you believe that si equates into the base cation saturation ratio? are you a believer in fertigating or foliaring with si?

3) what is your experience with hydro? do you feel that there is a correlation between hoagland's solution (or whatever optimized variation thereof) and the base cation saturation ratio taking into account pH dependent and general soil solubility and element specific mode of action of plant uptake? perhaps an esoteric question, but it seems very relevant to me considering the number of OM rich peat/coco based media cannabis growers rock these days along with any number of sensible or woowoo inputs.

 

[slownickel]

sub'd. great thank. keep dropping knowledge.

i've got a few questions for you:

1) all things being equal, if your base cation saturation ratio is on point do you still feel that ca foliars can provide benefit? i'm thinking ca-b foliars in particular during transition to bloom.

2) do you believe that si equates into the base cation saturation ratio? are you a believer in fertigating or foliaring with si?

3) what is your experience with hydro? do you feel that there is a correlation between hoagland's solution (or whatever optimized variation thereof) and the base cation saturation ratio taking into account pH dependent and general soil solubility and element specific mode of action of plant uptake? perhaps an esoteric question, but it seems very relevant to me considering the number of OM rich peat/coco based media cannabis growers rock these days along with any number of sensible or woowoo inputs.

In a perfect world, we would see no response to foliar calciums, yet we do. Even the guys at Albion chelates would argue that their chelated calcium applied to foliage shouldn't get a response, yet everyone says it does. This may be due to the fact that most folks have their nitrate levels off the chart and the growth is so rapid that the plant cannot pick up enough Calcium. Here the objective of the grower becomes a big issue, yield and size won't happen if they don't push nitrates early. Ammonia does not work at low temps and can become toxic if soil temps are low. Nitrate pushes faster growth that ammonia.

As for boron, I want boron up front quickly during early veg. If not, calcium cannot be taken up sufficiently. Putting on B at flowering means we missed the boat early. I would however, push Ca up at the push into flowering, big demand the first couple of weeks for Ca as this is one of the magic moments of maximum root emission, and each root tip demands Ca.

I have just started playing with Si, don't have the experience to give you a good answer. I did some testing, and my field levels with everything I do are near 75 ppm. I have heard folks discussing rations of K to Si, one to one. But I think that is a bit high. I have used for many years, horsetail teas, which are full of Si. That is pretty much a constant for me. Buying bottled Si, I am not convinced about yet.

No experience with hydro.

Most of these mediums react like soils to having their base distribution tweaked. Most growers want to think they are in an inert media, but there are worm castings, pine bark, composts, peat, and so many different things, that the nutrient density is huge. Everyone that had 75% Ca and above loved their results. One grower in Hawaii had naturally occurring 84% Ca. You want to know the magic of Maui? There it is.

All those that pushed their Ca had amazing reactions.

pH issues are most problematic for Mn uptake as well high OM lowers Mn availability. We look to swing the pH once a week or so with Fruit Enzymes or citric acid. Acidification once a week really helps a lot to get enough Mn and Zn into the plant.

 

[one.sixoneeight]

I can tell you a couple things looking at this mix. It looks like a good mix. One that organic guys on the internet have been using for years. However, after many tests, and many soil mixes, they all end up short on Ca. I believe yours will too. Not sure about the diatomacous earth, don't see a point there........ (might be my own ignorance, bug maintenance maybe?) IME, all these type of mixes come up real heavy in K. If it were me, I would test a cubic foot of this material before mixing up a ton. I know, this means time and money.

To be honest, I tried recipes like this many times in the past. Now I am more on a path to find quality base soil. Your base would be the peat/coco/rice/EWC. I prefer to mix up this base soil, then send it out for testing without amending. Then once you know where you stand, you fill liebig's barrel just right. If you need help with dosage, post it up and we will help.

EDIT: also throw in your Ca sources when doing your base mix for testing. I do at least. (good advice SlowN, or should he ignore everything I just said?)
So many ways to grow this plant.

If you don't know the function of Diatomaceous Earth as an amendment it seems like you don't have a full handle on things. Students really shouldnt be trying to teach class.

 

[jidoka]

Si is an anion...not a base cation.

In hydro that actually has a cec my approach is different. If there is room I simply add Ca to raise the pH to 6. Obviously in coco you cannot do that cause it comes with too high a pH (one of the reasons I hate coco). I also do not like ProMix for hydro because they use a combo of dolomite and carbonate...I want to not use Mg as it is simple to feed.

Left to my own devices I would take raw peat and chuck some pumice or calcined de in it for drainage and I use CapSil as a wetting agent. Then I would add CaCO3 or CaSiO2 to bring pH to 6.

The reason I do this is Ca is the single hardest thing to get in hydro. This allows the plant to take up Ca from the soil in addition to CaNO3. I know it happens because the pH will drop over the course of a grow. Then all I do is add enough Ca to raise the pH back up for the next grow.

 

[slownickel]

I can tell you a couple things looking at this mix. It looks like a good mix. One that organic guys on the internet have been using for years. However, after many tests, and many soil mixes, they all end up short on Ca. I believe yours will too. Not sure about the diatomacous earth, don't see a point there........ (might be my own ignorance, bug maintenance maybe?) IME, all these type of mixes come up real heavy in K. If it were me, I would test a cubic foot of this material before mixing up a ton. I know, this means time and money.

To be honest, I tried recipes like this many times in the past. Now I am more on a path to find quality base soil. Your base would be the peat/coco/rice/EWC. I prefer to mix up this base soil, then send it out for testing without amending. Then once you know where you stand, you fill liebig's barrel just right. If you need help with dosage, post it up and we will help.

EDIT: also throw in your Ca sources when doing your base mix for testing. I do at least. (good advice SlowN, or should he ignore everything I just said?)
So many ways to grow this plant.

Jido,

Appreciate the comments. Your diagnosis is right on. I would throw a bit of lime, but wouldn't add gypsum til after a test.

 

[Natural Farmer]

I can tell you a couple things looking at this mix. It looks like a good mix. One that organic guys on the internet have been using for years.

Hey Bulldog, This is Homesteader. Unless I am unaware, this is my base mix and recipe, never seen it out on the internet unless I am mistaken. You have seen a similar mix test of mine test out at 81.5% cal sat but that was with a basic test and before taking slownickels advice on subbing more gypsum for excess calcium carbonate.

I don't have a ton of money to test soils, but could you explain why I should test my bases? It just seems like an unnecessary seeing how I create my base on texture.

 

[Natural Farmer]

Jido,

Appreciate the comments. Your diagnosis is right on. I would throw a bit of lime, but wouldn't add gypsum til after a test.

Thanks for all your help! Hope your growing season is blessed.

 

[Natural Farmer]

Day 25 with that mix by the way....zero juice

 

[slownickel]

Day 25 with that mix by the way....zero juice

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70936&pictureid=1689872&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Looking Good! Any smell yet? How about a close up if possible of some early frost?

 

[slownickel]

The ladies

The ladies



I have got two plants that have hit 11 leaves each.... One is Silver Haze and the other is OGK.

 

[plantingplants]

They look good! Does 'hitting' 11 leaves mean something? Also why are you in small pots?

 

[slownickel]

nice slow, those OGK's look fantastic along with the haze.

curious about the 11 leaves too...

Me too! I would like to think that I am maximizing genetic potential. Anyone else ever see 11 leaves per leaf?

 

[slownickel]

They look good! Does 'hitting' 11 leaves mean something? Also why are you in small pots?

I have one big pot that I am getting ready. The problem is that there is a 3 foot wall keeping everything out of my neighbors view. That is what they are all bent in every which direction....

 

[slownickel]

11 leaves

11 leaves

I saw 11 leaves on one other of my plants before. However, this time, I pushed Ca way above 85%. Now, 2 plants from different genetics.... coincidence?

They also got lot of everything that was missing, especially Cu, Zn and Mn.