Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[BrainSellz]

O man, this would be nice.





I was more speaking on the fact that most soil out of a bag, or recycled by people dumping on nutes, Ca seems to be the answer to knock off those excesses. I see yearly applications of gypsum before my cover crops in the winter. Also fresh Ca on almost any bagged soil I have tested. Like slow N said, I have yet to see a bagged soil with proper Ca levels. Fox Farm, Vermi fire, Roots Organics, Black Gold, Bu Blend potting soil are all soils I have tested in the last 6 months. Every one, super high in K, low in Ca, most are high in P. Then you add in low quality water and you have Mg building up soon. Throw some gypsum on it! Test after test, that seems to be my answer at least. Speaks well to my type of soil I am working with on my property.


Anybody test Soil King soil yet? Those guys are a joke, but I want to see how they test.


Has anybody tested new bagged soil, or bulk soil, that tests near 68% Ca? Let alone 90+% like SlowN is talking? Not sure I have seen anything over 60% yet. Coots mix has been the closest, yet takes forever for the oyster shells to break down. Coots is commonly in the 60% range when first started, then after a season you will see Ca numbers in the 70% range. That is why, IMO, people love coots. Ca is the highest I have tested.

Which Roots Organic did you have tested? Can you point me to the analysis thanks.

 

[biggreg]

Greg those numbers look like a compost analysis.

The test was a Mehlich 3 done by dairy one.

It's bagged potting soil from the growshop.

 

[HazyBulldog]

I grabbed a bag of KIS organic water only with biochar bagged soil. I was going to send a sample of another homemade mix anyway that day for testing so i grabbed a bag out of curiosity.

When I opened the bag, It was stinking of dead fish and was sour/anaerobic. I sent a sample anyway. The lab reported a high ph and I also measured a high ph initially. After leaving the bag open for a week or so, I rechecked it. It smelled earthy and yummy and the ph dropped back down to 6.4.

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=70606&pictureid=1688923&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

Please note: the 2g soil sample required for this test was weighed in with a mineral soil calibrated "2g"approximating, 1.7cc volume scoop.

I wonder what the N levels were due to ammonia? I also wonder if those are true Ca numbers, however if so, I would imagine you had good luck with that soil. Looks pretty good from other bagged soil I have seen.

Bulldog, nectar of the gods tests around 80% Ca, 8% Mg and K. K deficiency shows up in that mix pretty quick because it's so light. You can see people on insta that use it don't have flowers that fill out as well as they could. Coots was always around 60-65% Ca, 12-15 Mg and 10-16 K. These are Logan numbers. It's almost always a good candidate for gypsum. FFOF had great numbers only once out of three tests, they probably got lucky on one batch.

.

I don't want a light mix, that is for sure.

The numbers you posted on the coots mix is exactly what I have noticed in the past. Have you tested after a season? Depending on the feeds, most the time the Ca comes in around 70-75% after all the oyster shells break down. IME at least. Most people are not raising Ca levels over the season, so I assume those higher levels are purely due to oyster shells breaking down.

Problem with FFOF after a cup of Ca sulfates, is the N levels are almost always WAY high. Last test they came in around 300+ ppms of N.

Edit: that nectar of the gods sounds like great soil! I want some! Seems like the nutrient company makes great soil, because they can raise those Ca levels. Nectar of the Gods is also the company that has raised the Ca levels in their nutrients creating one of the best hydroponic lines available..... IMO. I won the photo contest over at The Farm, and nector was one of the prizes. I declined because they are not "organic" but mostly organic as they put it. I think they use urea and N-furic. (sp?) However, like a nutrient company, they made the mix light so you have to fertilize more often. Also easier to ship I imagine. I bet the soil they use outdoors has top soil added, just a guess.

I tested all the Royal Gold soils, mainly Mendo Mix and Basement Mix. They both tested around +/-40% Ca.

In case you haven't noticed a pattern yet, the best growers in the world will never tell you about, or put Ca into their soil mixes that are available to others. This is a perfect example, 40%, what a joke. What a holes.

Which Roots Organic did you have tested? Can you point me to the analysis thanks.

I got the 707 and green bag from logan. I am sending new tests out this week (or next) for Spectrum with both mixes. I will post up in this thread when I get the results.

 

[Space Case]

In case you haven't noticed a pattern yet, the best growers in the world will never tell you about, or put Ca into their soil mixes that are available to others. This is a perfect example, 40%, what a joke.

Yea. High P and K and more Na than I would like. All these coco based soils are basically just coco and compost, and none of em have enough Ca or trace, you have to bottle feed, or sulfates if you know what you are doing. Same goes for roots, vermifire, etc, etc. We ran Vermifire last year but I added gypsum and azomite (I know, i know, too much Al), and fed lots of CaNO3 throughout the grow, and we did murder shit with that. But too light of a mix still. In the hot August sun, in 315gal pots, they needed water daily or would wilt.

One mox everyone used to do had lots of Calicium. The Tom Hill mix had lime, gypsum, and bone meal. But it was also really hot with N and P (tested over 2000ppm on P).

 

[Mate Dave]

Why don't the yanks buy a dedicated raised bed filler and start a year ahead of schedule? That stuff here makes mockery of all the bag mix's

Sod Tom's mix Coots mix & Stans mix. I see no reason to use them when there are issues with the sourcing of the ingreedients and the mix needs to be prepared ahead of planting and has some levels that seem ok for the person whe needs to spoend a cash cow yearly to maintain soil fertility, when you have a perfect garden compost @ £70 per tonne. We have one soil association approved and is tested and can be tested. No need to dump yards of crap and mix it out I don't think.

I have a mate who turns municiple compost for a living and can get it by the flat bed for £20...

 

[slownickel]

Why don't the yanks buy a dedicated raised bed filler and start a year ahead of schedule? That stuff here makes mockery of all the bag mix's

Sod Tom's mix Coots mix & Stans mix. I see no reason to use them when there are issues with the sourceing of the ingreedients when we have a perfect garden compost @ £70 per tonne, soil association approved and is tested and can be tested. no need to dump yards of crap out i don't think

I hearby dub You the Killer of Woowoo mixes!

 

[Mate Dave]

A Woowooo mix is that some sort of wolf whistle towards a fancy marl of amendments?

I just don't see Peat as having anything to do with growing outside unless your luckily enough to have a peat bog and have to plan for drainage and pH..

 

[slownickel]

A Woowooo mix is that some sort of wolf whistle towards a fancy marl of amendments?

I just don't see Peat as having anything to do with growing outside unless your luckily enough to have a peat bog and have to plan for drainage and pH..

Oh, I bet you have an accent! Exactly! Purse your lips when you say it. Wooooooo woooooooo

Woowoo is my fancy wolf whistle to wake folks up to the same fact you are raising. They are all spending a royal fortune on letting someone else do a half ass job with the same materials or worse quality even, that one can blend at home. Realize you are speaking in great part to a bunch of stoners that have to pay big bucks for labor, then there is the learning or better yet copying process. These guys have paid for Stanford pHD's several times over in their learning process! So if they find something that more or less works, well, no one has an ugly baby.

Like most growers (except me), folks want to harvest and then get on a cruise or take a plane and get the hell away. I can't do that as I am at the equator and we are busy busy every dang day of the year.

 

[Mate Dave]

I'm game for some of this 85%.. What do I need to do to achive this? Get a batch of dirt with the necissary components of a base and have an analysis done based on reaching 85%?


Without a native soil to use what would youu anyone suggest I get to start this process off?

 

[BrainSellz]

I won the photo contest over at The Farm, and nector was one of the prizes. I declined because they are not "organic" but mostly organic as they put it. I think they use urea and N-furic. (sp?).

Nope, uses no urea. Scott talks sh:t about urea. let me find the link. Been awhile since I watched it but I believe it's towards the middle or end.

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[slownickel]

I am on the road to everything Slow just said for sure.

How about for short season light deps, or indoor runs? Would you want a 12 cec with mostly top soil and 10% organic matter? Trying to test as much soil as possible to fill my greenhouses with. Not sure the native soil will be the answer. Hard to pull from my old ways, but I can tell you this much, one greenhouse will be filled with native soil with 85+% Ca levels. No woo woo juice either. The SlowN dep house I will call it.

Wow.... Do I get a statue made of Dab or something?

 

[slownickel]

My experiments are coming along. I have some silver haze and OGK from seed that are both hitting 11 leaves.

They both showed K deficiency early on due to the high Ca that I pushed, which was definitely over 90%. I had no problem fixing that with a bit of MKP to the soil and a bit applied as a foliar.

The thickness of the stems is impressive. My most impressive OGK though turned out to be a hermi! It is now in the compost pit.

Will post some photos later....

 

[Space Case]

Peat does make sense for us desert growers, because it is acidic and our water and our native soils are all alkaline. But these indoor guys think peat only works when you dump a ton of carbonate on it to buffer it, but they can't tell you why, its just "what the recipe calls for".

 

[slownickel]

Peat does make sense for us desert growers, because it is acidic and our water and our native soils are all alkaline. But these indoor guys think peat only works when you dump a ton of carbonate on it to buffer it, but they can't tell you why, its just "what the recipe calls for".

Spacey,

It all depends where you are standing. You and I have the same issues, we are begging to get some acidity on a naturally high pH soil with alkaline water. Tall order, no?

There are fewer growers that You think that are either willing or able to run numbers, much less look at analysis, much less understand what they will see. Combine that with lousy lab results that have little to do with reality, the easiest is to look for a consensus from others on a web page and go with it.

From the responses from growers that have gone the extra yard, many more are joining in. Whether to use peat as an air space modulator, rocks, perlite, etc. is a major issue and one that we should discuss, especially taking into consideration short term vs medium term objectives. Many make short term decisions, but get lazy and go on with the same mix (oops Tony) for ever and ever, for what ever reason.

Many have not dared using soil as they over water and have no idea how to fix a soil. With hybrid medias with huge airspace, nearly anyone can get off some burn your throat yet look and smell pretty hack.

For anyone thinking of going to scale, peat really is not a very realistic material to use.

For the guy with a couple of hundred plants and indoors or even outdoors, the cost benefit ratio has not kicked in yet due to prices. But it will.

With all that said, my plants are in left over soil samples, peat, rice hulls, biochar rice hulls, composted wood chips and worm castings. Plus a large enough quantity of gypsum so that I can see it and a bit of triple super phosphate.

If we discussed ecology, limited resources, etc. etc... I am a sinner. If you discuss salts in organics, I am a sinner. Potassium sulfate, k-mag, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium borate, copper sulfate etc.. are all salts. Sorry, but I can't farm without them and all are considered organic in both Europe and the US, so that is the definition of organic that I use. I use triple super phosphate in my organic limes and avocado. Given we don't harvest til the 3rd year, we are happy to wait to be considered organic as long as I have my triple.... I apply between a pound or so per hole.... For my microbiology friends, mycos don't work well here. With our potassium and chloride levels so high, we have to raise our P high to get any response. I tried over and over, and in many crops. Just won't work here. Everything depends on where you are standing.

The economics won't let me use peat in an avocado or lime tree. However, the rest of the things that I mentioned, I can use legally in my organic farms. I challenge anyone to find a better avocado, lime or sweet potato anywhere. All bets taken.

The others that use peat in their mixes are pretty much forced to add carbonate to get the pH up, what else could they do?

I would never tell anyone to use dolomite. (My Mg source is K-Mag to the soil and Mg Sulfate foliar). If a soil is pure sand, I will apply Mg Sulfate to get the web bulb to open up under the drip line.... not much though.

 

[Sokan]

ah, thank you Slownickel for your honesty and all you do. Good stuff What about MgCl ''oil'' for foliar?

 

[slownickel]

ah, thank you Slownickel for your honesty and all you do. Good stuff What about MgCl ''oil'' for foliar?

You and everyone else are very welcome. I am paying it forward.

Never used nor heard of for that matter of MgCl. I used MgSO4 for foliars, works extremely well and is cheap.

Chloride here in Peru is already off the charts in the soil and in the water.

What are your experiences with this stuff?

 

[Natural Farmer]

Hey SlowN,
Whats up Bulldog!

Do you mind critique this mix before I mix it up? Ill send out a sample to Spectrum once its done. I already know what you are going to say about the Dolomite but I just feel like I need it for some Mag saturation in the mix? Much thx!


17 gallons Coco coir (1 5kg brick)
5 gallons Earth Worm Castings
5 gallons Candadian sphagnum peat moss
5 gallons rice hulls
4 cups gypsum
2 cups crab meal
1 ½ cups kelp meal
2 cup soybean meal
2 cups bone char (NOT MEAL)
1 cups dolomitic lime
1 cup food grade Diatomaceous Earth
Handful of leaves and rice hull char

 

[Natural Farmer]

If I was going to switch out K-mag instead, how much would you suggest in this mix?

 

[Natural Farmer]

I am really happy with the base (peat, coco, rice h, EWC). I have tried several other inputs to try to do without peat or coco but for the time being, Ive yet to find a better way

 

[slownickel]

If I was going to switch out K-mag instead, how much would you suggest in this mix?

I doubt a cup of dolomite is going to hurt you. K-Mag is 22% Mg.

You can apply Mg foliarly and it is 100% translocatable to the roots.

You have no idea of how much Mg is in the EWC.

Any idea of the pH of the EWC? Sure looks like it is going to be a very acidic mix.

I have no way to tell you what to mix in there.

What is the pH of your water?

Have you run this mix before? If so, how did it do?

It may behoove you to send in a sample of the old mix that went through a season to see where you are, or is this a "new hybrid" you are coming up with?

There are too many variables and no real data.

My crystal ball broke last year.... haven't been the same since....