Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[jidoka]

my meter told me i was fine. my plants were so healthy i decided to pump up that k and see if i got yield. in retrospect i wish i had simply sprayed k acetate. i fuck up quite often and i learn from those fuck ups

we almost had those run charts which would have led to control charts cat. i fucked that up to by pushing buttons on what turned out to be a sensitve pussy. i probably wont learn shit from that. fortunately i never gave them what range to look for.

 

[jidoka]

one thing is for damn sure...nitrate over a certain level is a complete disaster. i might have also forgot to give them the foliar formula that was reducing it effectively...they probably will just spray some a/b lol

 

[orechron]

orechron, got time to elaborate on the acid soil situation where gypsum didn't work for you? I think we touched on that the other day...

Yes, the yards in my area have pH ranging between 6.0-6.3, occasionally lower. I applied gypsum just to see what would happen and I got basically every other cation deficiency like you'd expect. I also applied gypsum to my indoor peat based mix when it had a 6.7pH and it worked great for that one grow, but now this soil isn't performing well anymore. There are other factors, but I'm just hesitant to use it when it seems to make other cations less available further down the road.

 

[jidoka]

it does unless you have high levels of na, k or mg. my new soil has a ph of 6.1, lowish ca and low k but high mg. i fear gypsum cause of what it would do to k. ima use vansil and mkp.and axis coarse de to prevent it from being too tight. i will spray albion til i use up that mag and i will copy the photomag formula minus the epsom salt

we will see what happens

 

[caterpillar710]

one thing is for damn sure...nitrate over a certain level is a complete disaster. i might have also forgot to give them the foliar formula that was reducing it effectively...they probably will just spray some a/b lol

A B All the things.

 

[slownickel]

Yes, the yards in my area have pH ranging between 6.0-6.3, occasionally lower. I applied gypsum just to see what would happen and I got basically every other cation deficiency like you'd expect. I also applied gypsum to my indoor peat based mix when it had a 6.7pH and it worked great for that one grow, but now this soil isn't performing well anymore. There are other factors, but I'm just hesitant to use it when it seems to make other cations less available further down the road.

Orech,

The amount to apply of gypsum ideally should be calculated. You just can't throw on any amount. Many times folks need K and have Na and Mg overload. Each soil is different. Did you use soil analysis to make that calculation? If you did, would you mind sharing the results and tell us how you made the calc?

And how much gypsum did you apply at one time in how big an area?

Just wondering.

If you apply 1 meq of Ca, you push out 1 meq of something else. If you saw a Mg deficiency, I would argue your P was low. Imperative to work with real numbers so that you have an idea what to push, no? Gypsum doesn't make other elements unavailable, it pushes other cations out. That is the value of the material.

 

[orechron]

You're right I should clarify that I'm not trying to make it sound like I had long term plans for my front yard when I did this. The place I rent was supposed to have the foundation dug up and re-poured so a good portion of this soil was going to be taken off the property early summer last year.

I'm also showing this example because we know gypsum on acid soil is a disaster. I had read about it at that point and wanted to see it for myself. What is unclear to me is if or how to use it well in soils in the 6.4-6.8 range. Soils above 7 are a no brainer if Ca is low -> gypsum.

Here's my yard in early may 2015:


And about a year later after 50 lbs gypsum on 1900 sq ft:


If I thought I was going to keep the soil and make a garden out of it I probably would've added 25 lbs of lime, maybe 50 lbs or more now that I've seen Logan seems to be under reporting Ca.

I shot for 5 times (semi arbitrarily, but I was pushing more calcium in everything I was mixing at that point) the calcium deficit on the report, only with gypsum...

250 lbs per acre Ca/ .23 = 1087 lbs gypsum
43560 sq ft per acre/ 1900 sq ft (my yard) = 23
1087/23 = 47.3 lbs gypsum

It was convenient to load a 50 lb bag into a spreader. You got me, it is bad math. The results are weird though. I thought that Mg and K would be much lower. I also know you're going to scream sampling error, but I actually pull cores unlike most people. 30 cores were pulled on the entire yard both times. There will always be variance but what appears to have happened is that the calcium and sulfur were washed out and maybe a little Mg. We get al least 40 inches of rain here annually and I see very steady numbers in fields and yards: low calcium, Mg around 10%, K around 2-3%. It appears that our soils can hang on to baseline amounts of cations.

I don't know about the Mg and P issue. P isn't crazy low for a clay topsoil, but also not near the levels we are used to using.

 

[slownickel]

Orch,

On acid soils, we try to get our pH fixed and then add gypsum for soluble calcium quick, especially on an annual. On acid soils I always apply both calcium carbonate and gypsum. We had orange trees at a pH of 4.6 in Costa Rica. We had to use two to three times more calcium carbonate than gypsum.

Your K is very low by the way and with that much acidity, and in some of those soils I wonder how toxic some of your metals are getting.

On that type soil I would be aiming towards 5 or 6% K, maybe even more depending on response.

Interesting experiment though!

 

[slownickel]

something be wrong....

something be wrong....

You're right I should clarify that I'm not trying to make it sound like I had long term plans for my front yard when I did this. The place I rent was supposed to have the foundation dug up and re-poured so a good portion of this soil was going to be taken off the property early summer last year.

I'm also showing this example because we know gypsum on acid soil is a disaster. I had read about it at that point and wanted to see it for myself. What is unclear to me is if or how to use it well in soils in the 6.4-6.8 range. Soils above 7 are a no brainer if Ca is low -> gypsum.

Here's my yard in early may 2015:
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=66958&pictureid=1682567&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

And about a year later after 50 lbs gypsum on 1900 sq ft:
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=66958&pictureid=1682568&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

If I thought I was going to keep the soil and make a garden out of it I probably would've added 25 lbs of lime, maybe 50 lbs or more now that I've seen Logan seems to be under reporting Ca.

I shot for 5 times (semi arbitrarily, but I was pushing more calcium in everything I was mixing at that point) the calcium deficit on the report, only with gypsum...

250 lbs per acre Ca/ .23 = 1087 lbs gypsum
43560 sq ft per acre/ 1900 sq ft (my yard) = 23
1087/23 = 47.3 lbs gypsum

It was convenient to load a 50 lb bag into a spreader. You got me, it is bad math. The results are weird though. I thought that Mg and K would be much lower. I also know you're going to scream sampling error, but I actually pull cores unlike most people. 30 cores were pulled on the entire yard both times. There will always be variance but what appears to have happened is that the calcium and sulfur were washed out and maybe a little Mg. We get al least 40 inches of rain here annually and I see very steady numbers in fields and yards: low calcium, Mg around 10%, K around 2-3%. It appears that our soils can hang on to baseline amounts of cations.

I don't know about the Mg and P issue. P isn't crazy low for a clay topsoil, but also not near the levels we are used to using.

Sure looks to me like your gypsum was not a good quality. Look at your jump in sodium! Looks like you bought your gypsum in Peru!

 

[jidoka]

oerch...i follow tainio. below 6.5 carbonate or silicate...6.5 50% carb/sil and 50% gypsum, and above 7 everyone knows gypsum. if you need to make carb/sil available quickly more tainio microbes prefereably brewed so the waste products are also available...some stim, some shield and some p...fungal deveopment in 48 hours.# fuck compost, lol

 

[orechron]

I agree with around 5 or 6% K. I didn't see any full analysis on the gypsum bags; didn't know sodium was also included. It was from Home Depot and was super fine, easy to dissolve, $4/50lb bag. They quit carrying it! Maybe the sodium is why.

Jidoka, I just got a Morgan test on my media. Mehlich Ca and Mg are high but not very soluble. Potassium is coming into solution way easier. I'm not going to theorize much right now being that this is the first time using it. If I ever use compost in a mix again it will prob be less than 5%, more of an inoculant.

 

[HazyBulldog]

Fun meeting some of you guys at the cup. Hope everybody had a good time.


It was interesting talking to all the different soil companies at the cup.

Soil King: no idea what they are doing. Pretend to have soil tests, and I have been asking for three months, no tests. At the show, they claimed they left the tests at their shop. I said no problem, all these labs have online results. They got defensive, and obviously had no idea about balancing soil. More "just add water" nonsense.

Bu Potting Soil: These guys are good. I asked why they don't get their soil ratio's closer to the proper ratio's. Showed them my soil tests I have taken over the last couple months with their product. They said, "it's because this is what the local garden center asked for years ago, and it works." Long story short, I went into the problems with the soil, and they AGREED! They set me all up with their soil yard in Sacramento, and I can get a custom mix sent out in 100 yard increments. Guess what my main change will be? Ca boost big time! Bag tests Ca around 55%, WAY TOO LOW!

There were several others, but not even worth mentioning. They hired scrubs that didn't know anything about soil.

Huge hole in this industry.

 

[jidoka]

I agree with around 5 or 6% K. I didn't see any full analysis on the gypsum bags; didn't know sodium was also included. It was from Home Depot and was super fine, easy to dissolve, $4/50lb bag. They quit carrying it! Maybe the sodium is why.

Jidoka, I just got a Morgan test on my media. Mehlich Ca and Mg are high but not very soluble. Potassium is coming into solution way easier. I'm not going to theorize much right now being that this is the first time using it. If I ever use compost in a mix again it will prob be less than 5%, more of an inoculant.

Did Bob talk you into that Morgan test?

 

[orechron]

Yep, I was asking him a little bit about soil when I was buying berries. I think it's the only test he uses. I'd be curious to see what his logan mehlich results look like.

Bulldog, I talked to some of the soil places as well. Pretty sad. There was a worm casting company with some some knowledgeable people in the tent where the flowers were displayed. Wasn't trying to push castings as a large percentage of a mix. Showed pictures of 10% working just as well as 30%.

Cup was chaos. Saw Slow a couple times and met Space Case and his grower clan. Missed meeting a bunch of people but it was a mad race to pick up all the seeds I wanted. Got some Rebel Grown, Aficionado, and more South Fork. Backyard dropped a small pile of weed into my girlfriends hand lol. Pretty thick crowd though, I'm not that social of a person.

 

[caterpillar710]

Hope you enjoyed. Thanks for stopping by. Morgan test is the only test bob uses

 

[orechron]

We smoked it that night, plenty potent, nose reminds me of dawg walker. I'll post pics on insta of what I find in the packs.

 

[GreenHands13]

Had a blast meeting everyone! Sucks I missed you orechron hope to see you in february! Appreciate the Betsy seeds caterpillar those and a whole bunch of your stuff is getting popped and thrown in the greenhouse asap.

 

[caterpillar710]

Thanks to all for the love and support. Seriously crazy overwhelming and humbling. Thanks for letting us be a part of your gardens.

Slownickel - we was looking forward to talking to you, how come you never came to say hi

 

[plantingplants]

Bummed I missed some of you! I'm stoked i ran into the rest of you though. Redthumb let go a pack of SFK since i missed out on the saturday rush and shcrews hooked it up with some aog f2s and blr cross! Also cool meeting greenhands. im trying out a small winter greenhouse so ill be popping the sfk and some aogxblr. Excited as fuck. And cat thanks for that sfk flower- it's great.

Is dawg walker the same strain the OR dispensary guy was talking about in the terp panel that is supposed to be off the charts in terpene concentration?

 

[caterpillar710]

Dog walker is good but I don't think it's the end all be all. Our dawg groomer throws some plants with 5% terps on the flower seen genes limeade test like that too