Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[redlaser]

thanks for the info


I asked bc last year i had a beautiful garden, everything was lush and rolling along, then all of a sudden right before they started stretching i noticed what looked like a deficiency everywhere but later turned into stunted plants and lower yields over all.

I had a couple get so bad they just ended up dying, even with the upmost care. They didnt skip a beat all the way from propagation to then so thats why i was convinced there is something in the gardens soil that is affecting the plants. The soil was tested in spring and while not perfect ratios throughout, it was not imbalanced greatly in anyway. I amended with organic/natural inputs ect.

The fucked up thing was the year before i saw the same thing, excellent growth until mid summer then lots of problems seemed to come up in this one garden.

I did find some evidence of russet mite damage but it was localized and seemed much different that the yellowing rusting spindly growth i was seeing. The garden was on a pretty straight forward spray regiment/ipm program

Water quality is worth looking into, especially if it’s from a well. California’s been in a drought for a while, and ground water is theoretically more concentrated overall.

Before I checked my water my plants would make it about two months in a new organic mix in containers before gradually yellowing from the bottom up. 389 mg/L chloride was in the water test, pretty unusable plant wise.

Sounds like you could be dealing with something similar, plants in the ground might be able to go a bit longer than containers before showing same issues

 

[slownickel]

This last season in a friends grow in Colorado it was clear that the soil below the pots was clay, nearly impermeable and that roots were wedging their way down there and many were coming out of the bottom of the bags.

First we dug drains from underneath the bags, out to the side of the bags and made a small drainage canal to get the water away from the bags, then we put stone on top and then we applied 20 lbs of gypsum on top. No more issues. Air is everything.

 

[Arnold.]

Results are in!

Results are in!

Hi guys,

I told myself to leave the study of this subject aside until I had my own results to apply it to.
And that day finally came!
(Slownickel, the results are said to be in your folder, but I can't PM yet)

I did some investing and came up with more applicable information and quiet the number of questions.

I had 6 samples, but to begin I'd like to discuss two of them.
One a commercial available organic potting soil with composted manure, bark and coco + fertilizer.
The second one the top soil of my veggie garden. Which is black sand by nature, but I improved it with garden compost and mulch throughout the years.

These are the lab reports:

This is my excel file:

I’m pretty sure I made errors with the excel file, but I like to learn through making them.

So first questions are about the calculations:

Did I calculate the base saturations correctly? I just divided the ppm’s of Ca, Mg, K and Na by their total sum. Or do I need to convert the ppms to meq/100g first?

I used the Ca AA8.2 for the potting soil, but it has a soil pH of 5.9, shouldn’t I use the M3 ppm instead? (Also, I should not look to the buffer pH, right?)

The next questions are about how to tackle the problems.

The first and foremost problem I see is the high CEC of 39. It will be too difficult to ‘turn this ship’. This will result in difficulties and needing lots of (expensive) input.
I did not plan to use this potting soil straight away, but wanted to mix it with about 40% of the volume in pumice stones and lava grit. Will this action lower the CEC of the total mix? I’m afraid so, since the CEC of pumice is particularly high. What are my options? Adding sand or coco?

Secondly the potting soil clearly has too low Ca. I want to add 20%. For that I would need 0.20 x 39CEC = 7.8meq/100g soil thus 7.8*200.4 = 1560 ppm Ca. How do I convert this ppm to kg/m3 for potting soil instead of kg/m2 for land?

I would need to drop K by flushing.

Mg saturation will be quiet good after I bump the Ca.

Na is too high, how do I remove this? Also flushing?

P is way too low in order to be the same ppm as K. Add 2100ppm.

Fe is way too high, how can I help this? Should I add as much Mn as 360ppm?

S is reasonable, but will be better if I apply gypsum and metal sulfates.

B seems too low. What to shoot for?

Zn will be way too low once I bump the P. With P, add 290ppm.

Soil pH is slightly too acidic that means I can use part calcium carbonate as Ca source.

I won’t go over the sample of the veggie garden just yet. First need some feedback on my thought process.

It would be appreciated deeply if the ones who eat this kind of stuff for breakfast could give me some advice

to end with a picture of fermented cannabis, the cob style. It is fully active like this, thus eatable. Smells sweet, a bit like hashish.

Cheers from Belgium!

Arnold.

 

[growingcrazy]

I would mix the veggie garden soil with the potting mix 3:1 and resample.

AA Ca/200
M3 Mg/120
M3 K/390
Highest Na/230 (thanks nickel)
Add together and divide for base %

P x .44
K x .83
Now make them equal.

Rethink everything from that point.

 

[MedResearcher]

Sounds like Slow is going to help you dial it in, so you should be set once he gets a chance.

Drama, politics, copyrights aside, if you want to learn how some of the calculations work I would recommend grabbing a copy of "The Ideal Soil." Not saying it has perfect ratios, or that the author did any of the work himself, but it is handy for the conversion calculations, as a starting point for decent ratios, and explains some basic concepts and theories.

Mr^^

 

[Arnold.]

Thanks guys. I had a feeling those calculations were wrong.

I still need to get the right base saturations.

I calculated it two ways.
1. the one that growingcrazy suggested
2. the formula that Spectrum suggests

http://spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/CEC_BpH_and_percent_sat.htm

The one of spectrum doesn’t add up to 100% because for example for Ca they do: 0.75*2/400*Ca = 0.00375*Ca and for the base saturation I did Ca/200 which is 0.005*Ca. I can fix that of course, but wanted to hear your thoughts first.
However, I do like that they use the pH for their calculations. Which would mean that I can get a bit higher Ca saturation if I get the pH up with a little CaCO3.

It is very clear in either of the new calculations that I have a huge Mg problem with both samples.

But before looking further into the problems, I first want to look how the base distributions would look after I bumped Ca to the desired saturation. But I stumbled again on some errors.

This is how I would calculate the needed ppm bump of Ca for the potting soil sample:
From 69% to 87%. That is 16% of 70.6 CEC = 11.3meq/100g soil thus 11.3*200 = 2260 ppm Ca to add.
But when I calculate the new base saturations (blue column) I calculate to 73.3% Ca instead of the desired 87%. Where is the fault in my reasoning?

Or you can find the excel file here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PitO1PVr5zvTKZznZicSs552dih6I9Bj

Cheers!
Arnold.

 

[led05]

Sounds like Slow is going to help you dial it in, so you should be set once he gets a chance.

Drama, politics, copyrights aside, if you want to learn how some of the calculations work I would recommend grabbing a copy of "The Ideal Soil." Not saying it has perfect ratios, or that the author did any of the work himself, but it is handy for the conversion calculations, as a starting point for decent ratios, and explains some basic concepts and theories.

Mr^^

I would think if one were to take the time, build a quick little / relatively simple spreadsheet (one pager) the calcs would be simple, quick & immediate....

I used to have to build spreadsheets 100's of pages long, linking to 100's of others, pushing the max of what excel could do, man something I DO NOT miss.

Comes in handy though these days for farming, especially things like "if" statements etc

 

[led05]

Thanks guys. I had a feeling those calculations were wrong.

I still need to get the right base saturations.

I calculated it two ways.
1. the one that growingcrazy suggested
2. the formula that Spectrum suggests

View Image
https://spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/CEC_BpH_and_percent_sat.htm

The one of spectrum doesn’t add up to 100% because for example for Ca they do: 0.75*2/400*Ca = 0.00375*Ca and for the base saturation I did Ca/200 which is 0.005*Ca. I can fix that of course, but wanted to hear your thoughts first.
However, I do like that they use the pH for their calculations. Which would mean that I can get a bit higher Ca saturation if I get the pH up with a little CaCO3.

It is very clear in either of the new calculations that I have a huge Mg problem with both samples.

But before looking further into the problems, I first want to look how the base distributions would look after I bumped Ca to the desired saturation. But I stumbled again on some errors.

This is how I would calculate the needed ppm bump of Ca for the potting soil sample:
From 69% to 87%. That is 16% of 70.6 CEC = 11.3meq/100g soil thus 11.3*200 = 2260 ppm Ca to add.
But when I calculate the new base saturations (blue column) I calculate to 73.3% Ca instead of the desired 87%. Where is the fault in my reasoning?

View Image

Or you can find the excel file here:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1PitO1PVr5zvTKZznZicSs552dih6I9Bj

Cheers!
Arnold.

It won't always add up to 100 there, PH aka Hydrogen causes this...

Honestly though, create yourself a nice formula based spreadsheet that self-calculates based on your goals, varying testing techniques etc and it'll be plug & play and you just click a button to calculate once linking to your results / data.

I haven't seen Mike's spreadsheet but I' sure it's something along these lines. I'm pretty sure throughout this thread all the logic, formulas and reasoning are there from him, it's just a matter of pulling it all together

Or slow could just lend one of us his spreadsheet with formulas and logic

 

[Arnold.]

Hi Led,

I'm not sure what you are getting at?

I am building a formula based spread sheet solely with the information out of this thread. Part of the questions that I have are to see if I'm using the correct formula's. I really want to understand every step I take in building this spreadsheet.

The adding up to more than 100% is not a problem, I know the reason, I could fix it. But I think I should not use Spectrum's formula for the CEC.

Cheers,

Arnold.

 

[Arnold.]

Hi guys!

I tried again this evening and I think I got the first set of calculations tuned in. I could solve some of my own questions.

Link to the spreadsheet will keep on updating.

The black font are the results from the lab. The blue font are the ppm levels what I think to aim for after reading this thread, based on the ‘ideal’ base saturations. The red font are the questions I have on how to try to reach the desired ppm.

Now, I know that removing an element is not as easy. (If anyone has tips on how to remove K, Mg, Na, Fe and Al please share them ) So I think that I can not focus on reaching ppm’s and base saturation alone, rather work on better ratio’s of elements.

For example, the potting soil has almost twice as much K as I would want in my base saturation. Would you recommend calculating the P (and after that S and Zn) with the lab results of the soil instead of the ‘desired’ K level calculated on an ‘ideal’ K base saturation of 5%?

Of course I still need get the CEC of the potting soil down. Buffered coco seems to be a good choice for lowering the CEC. I imagine sand will be a good choice as well. Pumice is said to have a CEC of 75meq and lava of 15 meq (http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html) so these two won’t be the best for this job I reckon.

Well, that’s it.
I’m keen to hear your thoughts and recommendations before I start calculating which and how many fertilizer to use.

Cheers!

Arnold.

 

[Guest]

Tell me about leaching. How quickly will flushing RO or distilled water thru soil leach out salts? Looking at my numbers from my tests I more than doubled my Ca, increased P by about 35%, reduced Mg.

My issue is driving down the Na. Soil is in bags on grates elevated off tent now. Seeds are started in separate containers so I have another week plus. Im flushing the bags that hold about 9 gallons with a gallon of RO/Distilled water each a couple times a day and vacuuming off the runoff out of the tent. I sampled the water before and tested it with my Oakton tester. Keeping track of it if I can see any changes.

 

[bsgospel]

Depends on what is occupying your colloids, I believe. Whatever your capacity- something will need to take the place of whatever you want knocked off. The tone of this thread will tell you you'll want it to be calcium ions, but it is somewhat slower to replace the ions- and you have no roots making exchanges or acting in concert with those colloids right now. What readings are you getting from just flushing the bags of soil? Are the Ca/P/Mg numbers you posted from a finished grow or what you're adding now? I'm not imagining a serious difference unless I've got the idea/facts wrong...

 

[led05]

Hi guys!

I tried again this evening and I think I got the first set of calculations tuned in. I could solve some of my own questions.

View Image
Link to the spreadsheet will keep on updating.

The black font are the results from the lab. The blue font are the ppm levels what I think to aim for after reading this thread, based on the ‘ideal’ base saturations. The red font are the questions I have on how to try to reach the desired ppm.

Now, I know that removing an element is not as easy. (If anyone has tips on how to remove K, Mg, Na, Fe and Al please share them ) So I think that I can not focus on reaching ppm’s and base saturation alone, rather work on better ratio’s of elements.

For example, the potting soil has almost twice as much K as I would want in my base saturation. Would you recommend calculating the P (and after that S and Zn) with the lab results of the soil instead of the ‘desired’ K level calculated on an ‘ideal’ K base saturation of 5%?

Of course I still need get the CEC of the potting soil down. Buffered coco seems to be a good choice for lowering the CEC. I imagine sand will be a good choice as well. Pumice is said to have a CEC of 75meq and lava of 15 meq (https://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html) so these two won’t be the best for this job I reckon.

Well, that’s it.
I’m keen to hear your thoughts and recommendations before I start calculating which and how many fertilizer to use.

Cheers!

Arnold.

Cations push Cations - Anions Push Anions - Hydrogen pushes everything

Stu - I wouldn't flush with RO, you're going to be throwing out the bad and the good. You should flush with proper minerals to push out what you don't want and keep what's good in there. RO will likely push as much good as bad, perhaps more. BTW - Gypsum is ideal to push out NaCl (Ca pushes the Na, S pushes the Cl) .... After a long cold winter I always see people trying to fix down by the curb and what the plow ruined with all that salt, they try so much and by far the easiest fix is a cheap bag of Gypsum.

Arnold - The spreadsheet I had in mind would have "If" statements, Macros etc build in. You literally click a button and any new data or data can be pulled from anywhere, calculated and do what you tell it to with a single click of the mouse. If you don't know Excel and have any experience with things like Macros, If statements, Pivot tables etc then it's moot but pretty easy to learn too, at least IMO.

Don't forget about soil Biology too..... Then again, I think most overthink growing WAY too much, too early on and go way past the basics for the advanced and chase themselves but learning is learning

Prevention is akin to Gold also, I know it goes without saying but don't put shit in, in the first place and you won't have to push... i.e. know your inputs as well as reasonably possible

 

[Guest]

Cations push Cations - Anions Push Anions - Hydrogen pushes everything

Stu - I wouldn't flush with RO, you're going to be throwing out the bad and the good. You should flush with proper minerals to push out what you don't want and keep what's good in there. RO will likely push as much good as bad, perhaps more. BTW - Gypsum is ideal to push out NaCl (Ca pushes the Na, S pushes the Cl) .... After a long cold winter I always see people trying to fix down by the curb and what the plow ruined with all that salt, they try so much and by far the easiest fix is a cheap bag of Gypsum.

Arnold - The spreadsheet I had in mind would have "If" statements, Macros etc build in. You literally click a button and any new data or data can be pulled from anywhere, calculated and do what you tell it to with a single click of the mouse. If you don't know Excel and have any experience with things like Macros, If statements, Pivot tables etc then it's moot but pretty easy to learn too, at least IMO.

Don't forget about soil Biology too..... Then again, I think most overthink growing WAY too much, too early on and go way past the basics for the advanced and chase themselves but learning is learning

Prevention is akin to Gold also, I know it goes without saying but don't put shit in, in the first place and you won't have to push... i.e. know your inputs as well as reasonably possible

I understand what your saying but this test shows what I would think is a lot of Ca already.

P m3 ppm 953
K m3 ppm 932
Mg m3 ppm 1136
Ca PH 8.2 16200
Na PH 8.2 753

If I can flush out salts I think N is the only thing I have to watch since N is supposed to flush out as well.

 

[Arnold.]

Thanks Led,

flushing with the proper minerals to push out seems logical indeed.
I know Cations push Cations. But since Fe+++ and Al+++ both have a strong bond, I was wondering on how to push them.
Since H pushes everything, could I use acids for this Fe Al job? Followed by for example Ca to fill in those gaps.

So gypsum would be adequate to get Mg, K and Na out, right?

I'm not forgetting biology. The potting soil is not steamed and of composted material. I have gathered Micro organisms in older forests and will be using EM1 as a bacterial inocculant. Plus, I like some worms in my pots as well.

I'm not hear to learn how to grow a plant. I can do that. I'm here to learn how to grow a plant that expresses its genetic potential. So now I'd like to overthink it a bit, but once I will be fertilizing I will keep it simple.

Thanks for the replies thusfar!

Arnold

 

[led05]

Thanks Led,

flushing with the proper minerals to push out seems logical indeed.
I know Cations push Cations. But since Fe+++ and Al+++ both have a strong bond, I was wondering on how to push them.
Since H pushes everything, could I use acids for this Fe Al job? Followed by for example Ca to fill in those gaps.

So gypsum would be adequate to get Mg, K and Na out, right?

I'm not forgetting biology. The potting soil is not steamed and of composted material. I have gathered Micro organisms in older forests and will be using EM1 as a bacterial inocculant. Plus, I like some worms in my pots as well.

I'm not hear to learn how to grow a plant. I can do that. I'm here to learn how to grow a plant that expresses its genetic potential. So now I'd like to overthink it a bit, but once I will be fertilizing I will keep it simple.

Thanks for the replies thusfar!

Arnold

It seems like you know more than enough to find out the answers to your Q's. Only you truly know your space and its variables and it seems you're knowledgeable enough to find this out. How does one learn best, by doing, not being told, period!

Some minerals are much harder to push than others, absolutely true. Sometimes it's about bringing the others then up so your ratios are where they need to be.

But really if I were you, I'd pick a plan, attack it from every angle you can (soil, foliar, watering) and see what happens.

Nobody here is going to be able to tell you exactly what to do or offer up a panacea for you...

Many of my comments aren't ever directed at anyone in particular, many are - the one about Biology and growing in general / people over complicating the process was for everyone, myself included, I remind myself of this many times, every day.

We, the grower are often the biggest and most fked variable in the process and chase our tails following one mistake with another...

I find the two biggest issues in grows I see are 1) Over-watering and 2) Under/mis-fertilization - time and again, always it seems and both effect each other greatly

fwiw

 

[Hermen_eutics]

Anyone have pointers for vermicompost testing? I think my current batch is thoroughly finished and id like to confirm that using it will be beneficial. I dont see that Spectrum Analytic's offers a compost test. Is it legit to send in compost as container media and use those values?

Penn State, offers these options

Service Includes the following: Fee
Compost Test 1A Percent solids, organic matter, pH, soluble salts, total nitrogen, total carbon, Carbon:Nitrogen ratio $40.00
Compost Test 1B Compost Test 1A plus ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium $55.00
Compost Test 1C Compost Test 1A plus ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, manganese, sodium, copper, iron, sulfur and zinc $75.00

Please share thoughts or experiences about analysis of this material.and the most relevant data to request?

 

[led05]

Anyone have pointers for vermicompost testing? I think my current batch is thoroughly finished and id like to confirm that using it will be beneficial. I dont see that Spectrum Analytic's offers a compost test. Is it legit to send in compost as container media and use those values?

Penn State, offers these options

Service Includes the following: Fee
Compost Test 1A Percent solids, organic matter, pH, soluble salts, total nitrogen, total carbon, Carbon:Nitrogen ratio $40.00
Compost Test 1B Compost Test 1A plus ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium $55.00
Compost Test 1C Compost Test 1A plus ammonium nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, manganese, sodium, copper, iron, sulfur and zinc $75.00

Please share thoughts or experiences about analysis of this material.and the most relevant data to request?

Casting analysis is different, they can test many of the same things but are primarily focused on Fungi / Bacteria ratios, activity levels, ciliates, flagellates, Amoeba and some of the bad things as well that can come along for the ride also.

Here's an example of one. I had one from a local farmer I requested recently that had a little more detail but I can't find it...

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...4e2011d5f3/1492555402149/MOSS+Lab+Results.pdf

I'd imagine your castings will be useful with or without the test !!

 

[paradoxlost]

Thanks Led,

flushing with the proper minerals to push out seems logical indeed.
I know Cations push Cations. But since Fe+++ and Al+++ both have a strong bond, I was wondering on how to push them.
Since H pushes everything, could I use acids for this Fe Al job? Followed by for example Ca to fill in those gaps.

So gypsum would be adequate to get Mg, K and Na out, right?

I'm not forgetting biology. The potting soil is not steamed and of composted material. I have gathered Micro organisms in older forests and will be using EM1 as a bacterial inocculant. Plus, I like some worms in my pots as well.

I'm not hear to learn how to grow a plant. I can do that. I'm here to learn how to grow a plant that expresses its genetic potential. So now I'd like to overthink it a bit, but once I will be fertilizing I will keep it simple.

Thanks for the replies thusfar!

Arnold

I imagine using humic and fulvic acids, maybe with some added enzymes, with some gypsum added it. Maybe get a ton of bee pollen, with a fait am out of gypsum with those two acids mixed in.

 

[Hermen_eutics]

Casting analysis is different, they can test many of the same things but are primarily focused on Fungi / Bacteria ratios, activity levels, ciliates, flagellates, Amoeba and some of the bad things as well that can come along for the ride also.

Here's an example of one. I had one from a local farmer I requested recently that had a little more detail but I can't find it...

https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...4e2011d5f3/1492555402149/MOSS+Lab+Results.pdf

I'd imagine your castings will be useful with or without the test !!

Thank you L5.

Ill write that lab and find out the fees and options for testing the vermicompost. Last season the castings were definitely useful for my peppers and greens but im concerned they may be high in Na, Mg and K and maybe not doing me any favors with other produce. In any case knowing the values is reassuring.