Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[slownickel]

led, Thank you! You have helped in many ways!

Can you specify genetics on your odd duckling?

Slow, with pushing Ca through flowering, do you go apply above your calculated K numbers to get to your 6-8% base? I think that with me pushing Ca hard weeks 1-5 it is pushing enough K off the base that it never allows me to catch up, even though I am adding K along the way, just not nearly enough. By the time week 6 comes around I am basically sitting below the 3.5-4% I was at initially, and never get to the 7% goal.

CEC 28.1
PH 6.6
OM 8.1
N 182.65
P 1834.3
K 1105
Mg 845
Ca 13539.93
S 1890
Fe 349
Zn 91.715
B 8
Cu 14.6744
Na 395
Mn 117.5
NH4 18.265

The S,Fe and Na numbers are higher than I would like, but I can't do anything about that.

These are the numbers I just amended to last week ... at least in theory. Plants are in veg in the mix that were in 2 gallon pots for 3 months... once they start coming back, I will do a log on this round.

First you have to have a plan. Make your calculations on the basis of the plan. Then work the plan. I can tell you that everyone that gets on board use a lot more inputs that they are used to. But realize to get higher yields AND QUALITY you have to push it. You are getting excellent results and yet you know you can do better. You're getting there. This took me years to understand and figure out. What were your numbers like previously? Quality?

Where did those lab numbers above come from? Are these different areas? Different lab? As you saw on the one sample from Spectrum, your indexed Mn is a lot lower than you think.

Your N is way too high. That blocks Ca uptake.

 

[led05]

If you want to learn how to estimate when to come back with Calcium, you will have to read Conradie and Stassen from the Univ of Stellenbosch (sp?). Their research led them to look at root flushes and all plants do a new root flush at flowering. New roots don't want high K, they want high Ca. Stassen figured this out on several crops. I met Stassen in 2005 I believe in Recife, Brasil. He gave a great presentation on reading root flushes and why so many mango growers had rot problems from low calcium in their fruit. It wasn't because they were not applying Ca, it was because they were applying potassium at flowering. The K blocked the Ca uptake.

And if you look at all the woowoo juice out there, all they do is pound and pound with K. Comes to flowering, more K. Big loss of yields. The organic guys with the teas and top dressings, more and more K. Big loss of yields.

So now I have to give my reasoning too? I try to keep it simple.

Those that did use this strategy this season had pretty amazing yields and very hard nugs.

So there is the logic and the experience(s).

reasoning for some of us helps us learn, understand, and mainly for me, remember, it becomes innate if I "get it", I imagine some others too, this also allows for others to build upon vs just being told.... This is why I selfishly seek and appreciate your reply above very much. For me, this is a much, much better answer than before.


I figured out the Ca thing mostly on my own with Peppers and Tomatoes, Ca hogs and very easy to tell if short and then applied that logic elsewhere.... What you've done here with this thread is furthered that learning immensely, supported it with scientific work of others or yourself I could never afford or able to do on my own and linked to many great articles and dumbed it down, all at the same time...

it feels a bit like......Teach a man to fish, buddy... Safe Travels

 

[redlaser]

50 fig trees is a lot, I only have 3 and it's way more than my immediate and extended family can handle, there's a lot of other fruit ripe near same time so lots of goodies to go around.


Fabric is amazing and it allows some water penetration if no plastic or poly covering. I actually wrapped my figs in containers this year in the GH with fabric and that's how I'm sure they'll be just fine in the ground, figs are very hardy just not 20 below hardy and with chilling winds, their done much below even zero unless buried well... It's the cold drying winds that kill more often than just the cold. The raised beds I have are open to earth but with a significant rock layer foundation 18 +" below everything but this allows for the enitre GH to breath and be part of earth vs just having a concrete pitched floor. The walls are filled solid with concrete, I'll never do that by mixer and hand again, ever !!!

Tough spot for a truck.

.

That guy sells his figs at Farmers markets as a hobby I guess. He’s a research chemist for sigma as a day job

That’s a nice greenhouse in your picture, makes good use of the space with the overhead areas.
I’ve got raised beds on 4-8 inches of gravel with the house on a foundation. Seems like it’s got advantages and disadvantages, the bad part is keeping it clean and water retention to a degree if there is a leak or overwatering. Mine will drain, but an unplanned overwater or spill will up humidity for a few days.
Do you think not having concrete floors helps with temperature buffering or more of a humidity modifier?

That looks like a lot of concrete to do by hand, even with a mixer that’s a several day workout

 

[led05]

.

That guy sells his figs at Farmers markets as a hobby I guess. He’s a research chemist for sigma as a day job

That’s a nice greenhouse in your picture, makes good use of the space with the overhead areas.
I’ve got raised beds on 4-8 inches of gravel with the house on a foundation. Seems like it’s got advantages and disadvantages, the bad part is keeping it clean and water retention to a degree if there is a leak or overwatering. Mine will drain, but an unplanned overwater or spill will up humidity for a few days.
Do you think not having concrete floors helps with temperature buffering or more of a humidity modifier?

That looks like a lot of concrete to do by hand, even with a mixer that’s a several day workout

never again, 300 + bags 80#, over 250 block..... plus the stucco, it's overkill.... I'm stubborn.

The base is actually well below grade but sits on like a 4-5 degree slope N to S, it runs E to W, I built it down like 2-3' - so 5' deep excavation, 18-24" stone base + crush then sand ( i have a local quarry hookup), and then tamped it out, 40A in there, water etc, future or present who cares ... My thinking is it will breath to earth (it does, helps wet/dry cycles), you can really never over-water, in spring I don't have to water (wicking) and overall it gets geo-thermal heat this way, IMO the leg work was well worth it

 

[growingcrazy]

First you have to have a plan. Make your calculations on the basis of the plan. Then work the plan. I can tell you that everyone that gets on board use a lot more inputs that they are used to. But realize to get higher yields AND QUALITY you have to push it. You are getting excellent results and yet you know you can do better. You're getting there. This took me years to understand and figure out. What were your numbers like previously? Quality?

Where did those lab numbers above come from? Are these different areas? Different lab? As you saw on the one sample from Spectrum, your indexed Mn is a lot lower than you think.

Your N is way too high. That blocks Ca uptake.

Those are not lab numbers. I took sample W17-A and did my calculations in a spread sheet. The "theoretical" numbers are those that I posted, after adding amendments. I used no N except for what is in the bone meal. I just needed a lot of Ca and P, so bone meal, calphos and gypsum are what I used.

As far as Mn, I applied 4.75 gr/cuft of Mn sulfate. That is a ~72 ppm addition, bringing me to 135. You have me thinking I am not even at half of what I should be?

On the N, I am hoping 2 weeks of veg on plants 3' in diameter will remove some of the N before flip.

I was pulling 2.3-2.5 consistently, but lesser quality overall. Having buds from the top down to 16"-18" deep in the canopy that are all maturing at the same rate...each bud site is requesting the same nutrition. That along with finishing 6-10 days sooner, makes a large difference. Very few strains are actually "finished" in the listed time, normally an extra 7-10 days is really needed to get the quality... Not anymore, proper finish times and proper terpene development.

With proper K, I know 3/1k will happen, even multi-strain and organically.

Gotta love reciprocal medical in Hawaii now!

 

[paradoxlost]

Slow, what would you recommend as far as a Molybdenum source be?

 

[Lightweight]

Slow, what would you recommend as far as a Molybdenum source be?

I know you didn't ask me, but I use sodium molybdate. I get it from Alpha Chemicals.

 

[EasyGoing]

You need to start with high Ca and with P>K. High Ca on a light mix is around 80%. On a heavy mix, 85% Ca. Mg@10% and K @ 4% or so.

From there you push K slowly during veg. During veg prior to flowering ideally you would pushed your K up to 7 or 8%. 10 days or so prior to flowering I would push Ca back up again meaning K would fall as the numbers have to equal 100% correct?

Some guys are actually hitting with foliar Ca and seeing some amazing results and at the same time, small applications of gypsum during veg. Once into flower one should starting to push up K again. Constant applications of more Ca on the soil during flowering along with some early Mg at flip to shed some of that N, all the while watching P carefully, maybe even supplementing more.

I like to use sulpomag as a Mg source. The nice thing about this source is that it is sulfate of potassium and magnesium all bound together by nature. Very different that magnesium sulfate, which is a terrible molecule, holds water and inflates horribly when wet. Causing lots of problems in water retention.

That sounds much more simple that it is.

In Hawaii sugar cane farms in Maui they had a problem of sugar cane not growing in certain areas. The issue was Mg at more than 30%. Imagine, Mg can go toxic! I have seen reports from grows at 28 and 30%! And folks just keep dumping on more Calmag!

Finding that 10 days before flip outdoors is a challenge. Even when I have grown on the same property for 5 years, flip date seems to vary. Might be due to weather, or improper feeds, but very hard to pull off, IMO. I have an indoor crop going I plan to have better timing with. Thanks for all the info, keep it coming.

 

[led05]

Finding that 10 days before flip outdoors is a challenge. Even when I have grown on the same property for 5 years, flip date seems to vary. Might be due to weather, or improper feeds, but very hard to pull off, IMO. I have an indoor crop going I plan to have better timing with. Thanks for all the info, keep it coming.

great point, outdoors the # of variables we don't or can't even consider vs indoors is mind blowing....


The sun integral varies from year to year based on weather during that period, the weather changes, precip amounts and the acidity of that rain, your feeding matters, the strain does change every year you grow and re-select (if doing it), it adapts, the way you started them seeds or clones, when you started them outside or in ground, how you fed them when starting, how you transplanted them etc etc all are factors.....


For instance, over the past 5 years (just looking at my spreadsheet eager for spring), my outside planting dates for most of my hot season veggies has varied from late April to late May based on a number of factors.... And when I put them out determines a lot of other things, not just the harvest date/period but the quality, the yield, the flavor profiles, bug pressures, mold, watering, fertilizing etc, just a couple weeks makes significant differences IME for all these things...

So much is going on.... best to understand as much as you can

 

[led05]

.

That guy sells his figs at Farmers markets as a hobby I guess. He’s a research chemist for sigma as a day job

That’s a nice greenhouse in your picture, makes good use of the space with the overhead areas.
I’ve got raised beds on 4-8 inches of gravel with the house on a foundation. Seems like it’s got advantages and disadvantages, the bad part is keeping it clean and water retention to a degree if there is a leak or overwatering. Mine will drain, but an unplanned overwater or spill will up humidity for a few days.
Do you think not having concrete floors helps with temperature buffering or more of a humidity modifier?

That looks like a lot of concrete to do by hand, even with a mixer that’s a several day workout

what is your humidity in GH, you know common recommendations for say tomatoes are to target 75-80% day and night 60-70% - much higher than many realize, it surprised me when I first learned it - if you got good air flow, plants, almost all of them love humid conditions, especially your warm / hot season crops

open floors allows for free (meaning I have to do nothing) watering from rains and snow melt in my area all spring via wicking, eventually the beds will transform the rock area below it and work into it, over time, a long one but this also allows for more life IMO vs a concrete sealed floor... It helps keep warm or cool, the GH itself is built below grade so the bottom floor is 2-3' below outside on one side and @ 2' on the other due to a 4-5 degree slop it's on.

So it helps both wit Humidity & Temp and better mimics the outside... The one down side is for a few days in spring, or during crazy weather periods like we're currently having (-8 to 60, then 7 to 50 in a day or two) a couple of inches of water will fill the bottom of the walkway. That wood is IPE so no worries but I wouldn't recommend anyone ever building with it or using as a sill plate etc.... it's worse than drilling concrete and literally has the same fire rating and density if not harder than concrete

The rich folk use it for docks and piers, Slow being a good S American must know IPE well

 

[prune]

Blather, blather, blather - judoka goes down and three others step up to fill this thread with totally useless static.

 

[led05]

Blather, blather, blather - judoka goes down and three others step up to fill this thread with totally useless static.

what are your contributions, here? please read b/w the lines a tad, thank you

When I re-read some parts of this thread to re-learn; my own posts irk me at times, then I see some that show things I've learned and hope others take something away from them, it balances. I hear what you're saying but if all these threads don't have some of the banter / blather you speak of they die.

When I/we post hopefully it offers something to someone and ALSO keeps this thread alive which means more read it, so what's good in here is seen by more.

If that comment wasn't directed toward me in part, I'd be surprised but if so, my bad, the above still applies

..

 

[~star~crash~]

I'm sensing a lot of hostility in this thread ??

 

[~star~crash~]

I'm experimenting with Roots Organics Buddha Bloom...

I'm experimenting with Roots Organics Buddha Bloom...

I can tell you that thus far the plants are responding with very shiny lush healthy foliage >>> question ... so in a properly balanced soil would this be considered sound nutrition, or woo woo juice?? peace

 

[growingcrazy]

Blather, blather, blather - judoka goes down and three others step up to fill this thread with totally useless static.

What are you looking for? We aren't going to gain anymore knowledge unless conversation happens. This is called learning through/with your peers.

Add to the discussion or keep quiet. Everyone here would rather see Jidoka back, except Slow. Even bitching and moaning back and forth can create positive ideas/methods in farming. That is why we are all here. No sugar coating needed.

I can tell you that thus far the plants are responding with very shiny lush healthy foliage >>> question ... so in a properly balanced soil would this be considered sound nutrition, or woo woo juice?? peace View Image

We can't even see the NPK. Start using weight to measure your nutrients and see what kind of real NPK is going into the soils under your normal watering program.

If you want to hit me up in PM feel free. I can explain better that way to give you a starting point with all of this...

 

[paradoxlost]

I know you didn't ask me, but I use sodium molybdate. I get it from Alpha Chemicals.

I don't know how I would feel adding the Na to my soil.

 

[EasyGoing]

I can tell you that thus far the plants are responding with very shiny lush healthy foliage >>> question ... so in a properly balanced soil would this be considered sound nutrition, or woo woo juice?? peace View Image

woo woo

 

[~star~crash~]

ok ...

 

[~star~crash~]

my mind tells me that the plants should (and do) show me what they need and if they are happy, or not ... i'll go back to lurking ..peace

 

[led05]

my mind tells me that the plants should (and do) show me what they need and if they are happy, or not ... i'll go back to lurking ..peace

The idea is that by the time you see what a plant needs it’s too late... I don’t entirely subscribe to this though as I believe everyone sees things at different points, a deficiency to me or you could show days or weeks apart etc...

Generally speaking though, when you notice something off, you’ve left some on the table

Don’t lurk, add, everyone here adds value