Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[Guest]

Pretty incredible the quantity of folks that are suffering from a P deficiency from pretty early on and then even heavier as they get further and further into flowering.

Unless you are one of those that is already loaded up with P, folks better get their P in prior to planting with a huge amount of bone meal for those organic growers as trying to play catch up with a "liquid" bone meal, is not only real expensive, but takes a huge amount to battle all that K in the composts, manures and worm castings....

I know you mentioned I had low P from my test results. And I even added a half cup per CF of high P bat guano when I originally mixed this 6 months ago. I took your advice and after the results added steamed bone meal twice to the tune of about 3/4 cup per CF and that had sat for almost 3 weeks before I transplanted. Plus a drench of milk water. I would thought that was a good amount. Plus just one plant only, other one is doing well. Did grab some 0-10-0 liquid bone meal today. Never saw this coming. Tonight if smart pot is dried enough I'm going to try a small amount of liquid P and top dress with worm power EWC. Crap.

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Unless Im wrong, which is highly probable this looks like a Ca def which isnt possible. So,,, other plant looks fine. Just transplanted 3 days ago. 3 weeks since sprout. WTF? On the leaf with the huge spots, the opposing leaf has developed some pencil mark sized rust spots as well.
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=74413&pictureid=1786020&thumb=1]View Image[/URL]

You sure that's a deficiency? Looks to me like you soil is a little hot. Within 3 days of transplant? If your plant was fine in it's old container 3 days ago this most likely is burn not deficiency, and it looks like burn damage with the necrosis. I'll bet if you do nothing it'll grow out of it.

 

[Guest]

You sure that's a deficiency? Looks to me like you soil is a little hot. Within 3 days of transplant? If your plant was fine in it's old container 3 days ago this most likely is burn not deficiency, and it looks like burn damage with the necrosis. I'll bet if you do nothing it'll grow out of it.

When I get home later if it's not getting worse I know I should just watch for now. But we all know it's tempting to want to "fix" it.
If it looks worse I will do a small dose of liquid bone meal. This is my first try with smart pots and may have let it get too dry but I watered yesterday to runoff with aloe/coconut water. 10 gallons of soil per pot takes more water than I had thought.
And any future pics I will take to the infirmary section. Sorry and don't mean to get thread off track.

 

[Limeygreen]

Is liquid bone meal available any quicker for Phosphorus than guano? I would think a ewc and guano tea would be a better route to go than using liquid bonemeal. I am tending to agree with the mix being a bit hot or plant in shock from transplant, do you use and humic acids or the like when transplanting or in your mix? Humic acid can sometimes burn plants if too much is used. Was there a big change in humidity or microclimates (plants close together holding higher humidity between them then moved farther apart in a dry environment causing water stress with stomata needing to close and adjust to new environment.) Do you have mycorhyzaie in yoru mix or any bacteria/fungi for the soil and plants? Would need to be careful not too overload them, as you mentioned you would try a light application I am sure you have this in mind already.

 

[Guest]

Is liquid bone meal available any quicker for Phosphorus than guano? I would think a ewc and guano tea would be a better route to go than using liquid bonemeal. I am tending to agree with the mix being a bit hot or plant in shock from transplant, do you use and humic acids or the like when transplanting or in your mix? Humic acid can sometimes burn plants if too much is used. Was there a big change in humidity or microclimates (plants close together holding higher humidity between them then moved farther apart in a dry environment causing water stress with stomata needing to close and adjust to new environment.) Do you have mycorhyzaie in yoru mix or any bacteria/fungi for the soil and plants? Would need to be careful not too overload them, as you mentioned you would try a light application I am sure you have this in mind already.

No humic added to soil. Used some bioag VAM when transplanting. Soil has worms fat and happy in it already. The shock, bit of burn sounds right. Not doing anything for 48 hours except water if needed. Thanks for all the input from everyone. All I would have gotten in the infirmary is "CALMAG!!!"

 

[Scrappy-doo]

Are you doing no-till Stewart? I gotta say I'm impressed you're only on your 4th grow and already jumping into the deep end with the organics. Took me 10 yrs to get here and I'm still afraid to go all out with worms and everything. Gonna be a quick learning curve for you I think.

 

[Guest]

Are you doing no-till Stewart? I gotta say I'm impressed you're only on your 4th grow and already jumping into the deep end with the organics. Took me 10 yrs to get here and I'm still afraid to go all out with worms and everything. Gonna be a quick learning curve for you I think.

Yup and first time with smart pots. I am limited on my size of indoor garden since Im in a non 420 state. So that does affect my ability to experiment and try different things. Once I start a grow Im pretty much commuted to it for the duration. On the funny yet ironic side I threw some 15 gallon decorative half barrels on the patio this summer and grew some tomatoes in generic Loews bagged soil with their slow release crap and I added some Tomato Tone and Kelp meal a couple times and grew a nice amount of very good 'maters. Go figure.
Now back to Gypsum.

 

[slownickel]

Slow...why no love for soft rock? I know it is less soluble than bone meal out of the bag but doesn't that soluble P complex with Ca pretty damn fast...like well before flower?

What about non organic growers...MAP and super triple?

Good rock phosphate is hard to get. It is a very slow release unless digested earlier. Good biology helps. Bone meal is the same way, but when micronized aka liquid bone meal, after having been cooked, seems to get the job done better the rock phosphate.

There is no problem of P complexing with Ca provided there is adequate organic material.

My personal favorite is of course triple super phosphate, I even use it on my organic limes and avocado. They disqualify me for 2 years, who cares, I don't have much fruit til the 3 year anyways.

I prefer MKP to MAP. Ammonia tends to call ever insect known to man.

 

[growingcrazy]

This might not be the correct place, but the rest of the class isn't as knowledgeable as this group...

Anybody have a small scale wet ball mill running at their farm? We have a very small 2 gallon "desktop" model that is good for a couple pounds of material, looking to build something larger.

 

[EasyGoing]

GrowingCrazy

Why? What do you mill down? Sulfates don't need it right? You milling things like kelp, alfalfa or mostly rock dusts?

Why would one spend time milling, instead of just top dressing? Not hating at all, just wondering what the purpose of a mill would be. Thanks. (besides quicker break down, which can be mitigated by proper planning of a top dress. Or maybe easier fertigation)

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

Im trying to figure out this P=K thing, or P slightly higher than K if possible. Lets say I'm running 400ppms of K and my P is say 200ppms. So i slam a bunch of liquid bone through my fertigator and get those #s closer together, correct me if I'm wrong but would such high Ppms of P say 400-500 ppm cause my mycorrhizae to shut down? or were they no working a long time ago, some of the research I've done suggests that they need low P #s to do their work ex. 75-125ppms P
Should i care if they are solubilizing the P? Is that as important as I've been taught for yields and overall health etc.


Could someone explain why i want higher P than K? i missed that back in the thread somewhere

 

[HappyTreeFarm]

I think i found the answer to one of my question:
K greatly exceeds P in most of all mixes and the result is slow transport of not just Ca, but everything.

 

[slownickel]

Is liquid bone meal available any quicker for Phosphorus than guano? I would think a ewc and guano tea would be a better route to go than using liquid bonemeal. I am tending to agree with the mix being a bit hot or plant in shock from transplant, do you use and humic acids or the like when transplanting or in your mix? Humic acid can sometimes burn plants if too much is used. Was there a big change in humidity or microclimates (plants close together holding higher humidity between them then moved farther apart in a dry environment causing water stress with stomata needing to close and adjust to new environment.) Do you have mycorhyzaie in yoru mix or any bacteria/fungi for the soil and plants? Would need to be careful not too overload them, as you mentioned you would try a light application I am sure you have this in mind already.

Limey,

A cpl of different growers have tried high P guano, making teas of it etc... we finally sent a sample into the lab of one of the teas, so much more K than P in the "high P guano teas". Pretty much explains the lack of response and in many cases, negative response.

When one has a deficiency, shotgun approach with manures never quite hits the market. Personally I like the rifle approach. One bullet, well directed.

 

[slownickel]

Im trying to figure out this P=K thing, or P slightly higher than K if possible. Lets say I'm running 400ppms of K and my P is say 200ppms. So i slam a bunch of liquid bone through my fertigator and get those #s closer together, correct me if I'm wrong but would such high Ppms of P say 400-500 ppm cause my mycorrhizae to shut down? or were they no working a long time ago, some of the research I've done suggests that they need low P #s to do their work ex. 75-125ppms P
Should i care if they are solubilizing the P? Is that as important as I've been taught for yields and overall health etc.


Could someone explain why i want higher P than K? i missed that back in the thread somewhere

Happy,

Now you are seeing the issues with a high K mix, you are forced to push high P. What folks have been seeing is that there is nearly never enough P in their mixes. This visit to Cali was most eye opening to those that followed the Reams concept of P=or > than K. You won't find that concept anywhere. Yet works great. What I was taught in the Univ. was wrong, not just regarding P, but in so many other elements too.

We made up a light mix this season in Colorado, to specifically confront this issue and to get the mix to dry out enough quickly, we had P=K, dialed in. Then they started with the compost teas..... immediate P issue. Some of our dear friends with their potassium meters will more than attest to what made the K go up, and it wasn't K!!! (slight dig, no offense intended, just makes me smile with my warped sense of humor)

Personally, thinking Myco's in an annual is a big wish. I think what might work is starting off with myco's in a low K mix and getting them established and then working your P if you have to.

This plant loves good biology, no doubt. But when you guys super soil, the biology won't do its' thing.

Do not confuse P for P2O5 or K for K2O. That means to get P equal to K, you need to run a x-2-1 to make them equal. In the fertilizer analysis label, that 2 number is P2O5 not P. That K is K2O, not K. So if you do the math, a x-2-1 is really a x-1-1 in P and K. Hope that helps your confusion.

 

[slownickel]

GrowingCrazy

Why? What do you mill down? Sulfates don't need it right? You milling things like kelp, alfalfa or mostly rock dusts?

Why would one spend time milling, instead of just top dressing? Not hating at all, just wondering what the purpose of a mill would be. Thanks. (besides quicker break down, which can be mitigated by proper planning of a top dress. Or maybe easier fertigation)

Easy,

The idea of milling is actually brilliant if done correctly. Imagine milling Sulpomag and then watering it through your irrigation system! Or rock phosphate, or bone meal....

Kempf and a number of others do the same thing, note the sludge on the bottom of their bottles. Look at any "liquid" bone meal. Micronized, yet not really soluble no?

Brunetti and many others started this many years ago, newbies like Kempf took advantage of that knowledge and ran with it....

 

[MrBungle]

Do you think that maybe Low P is pushed for environmental reasons?

 

[plantingplants]

I am lost on P. Had lots of red stems this year that were never alleviated with regular use of p acid to neutralize my alkaline water. P soil level rose above K with no alleviation of red stems. It's like 1500 now. I was short N but that didn't help when I added some. K didn't help. Addin ca didn't help. I never did foliar Mg but soil levels were very high. Micros were underdone- is that really what held P back?

 

[slownickel]

I am lost on P. Had lots of red stems this year that were never alleviated with regular use of p acid to neutralize my alkaline water. P soil level rose above K with no alleviation of red stems. It's like 1500 now. I was short N but that didn't help when I added some. K didn't help. Addin ca didn't help. I never did foliar Mg but soil levels were very high. Micros were underdone- is that really what held P back?

PP,

Your situation to this day is difficult to understand. And yes, without enough micros, P uptake is tough.

Your light situation as well as your water quality are huge factors that are difficult to quantity in terms of the cause and effect on your grow. Most especially your light.

What makes Cali great is the light.

I have noticed several times driving north how many hundreds of acres, growers are planting their citrus trees using a method of planting the trees on an angle not up and down, then tying the tree down to maximize the southern exposure.

Doesn't explain why you aren't getting the P uptake. Was the P acid your only source? If so, the Ca and other goodies in the water may have locked up that P before it came out the pipe!

Did you ever send in a leaf analysis to Logan?

 

[jidoka]

So as a sap measurer the further down the rabbit hole I go the more I realize I don't know.

What I think I see is I do way better with K starting at 2% and ca ppm at least 10x k ppm.

Then once bud has set you bring the mkp and blow the buds up. Problem being p from mkp does not get into the plant through foliar. Through the soil it works great. But as soon as you harvest you gotta start watering gypsum through the soil to get the k out for next yr.

Far from ideal iuntil you get P built up...Ima buy some super triple

 

[growingcrazy]

That has been the hardest part for me running this system indoors with soil recycling.

I have to run them long enough in veg while applying gypsum to get the k moved back to reasonable. Trying to find the fine line of just enough K...