RECENT interesting findings

[Sativied]

Bio dynamic organic heirloom tomatoes/ cannabis. I bet that would sell...

If one were to figure out how exactly nutrient availability affects which terpeness and when, a dirtless fully controlled grow environment will still be best. You guys are assigning the traits of heirloom varieties to organic growing while those tasteless tomatoes are foremost a result of breeding and not of not growing "organic".

I admit, I'm completely biased towards appeal to nature fallacies.

 

[troutman]

The thing is you can't really ship ripe tomatoes or you're probably going to end up with ketchup.

A field growN tomato to maturity with organic nutrients will always taste better than a regular store bought one from a greenhouse.

If you've grown tomatoes you would know this.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

Bio dynamic organic heirloom tomatoes/ cannabis. I bet that would sell...

If one were to figure out how exactly nutrient availability affects which terpeness and when, a dirtless fully controlled grow environment will still be best. You guys are assigning the traits of heirloom varieties to organic growing while those tasteless tomatoes are foremost a result of breeding and not of not growing "organic".

I admit, I'm completely biased towards appeal to nature fallacies.

I could not disagree more with your post. IMO, simply put, the magic does not happen in a sterile environment, no matter how hard you try.

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

on YouTube on Bubbleman's channel, the Ethan Russo talk video uploaded yesterday,

@ 20 minutes, Ethan talks about GW having a plant that 92% of it's cannabinoids are THCV, and then goes on to say that he is against genetic modification and all for selective breeding.

Where can I find more info on how they went about creating a plant that has 92% THCV?

You often talk about creating a plant that has only one cannabinoid, do you mean through selective breeding?

The difference between the CBG plants and the CBGV seems to be that the conventional CBG pot plants combine Geranylgeranyl pyrophosphate
with olivetolic acid in a reaction that is catalyzed by the presence of the enzyme geranylpyrophosphatelivetolate geranyltransferase while the CBGV plants combine Geranylgeranyl pyrophosphate with divarinolic acid & I don't know what enzyme is involved, but there probably is one. Targeting plants with high divarinolic acidlivetolic acid ratios for breeding shouldn't be any more or less difficult than targeting THC or CBD unless the enzyme catalyst isn't endemic to the plants or something weird like that.

 

[Sativied]

I could not disagree more with your post. IMO, simply put, the magic does not happen in a sterile environment, no matter how hard you try.

You and troutman are repeating a claim but I see zero valid argumentation to back up your opinion. Any recent scientific findings to back up your magic and that last statement? Don't bother, organic is like a religion, no point in discussing, you either believe in magic, or you don't. My statement however is like gravity. If terpene production can be influenced by nutrient availability it will require precision and timing to get repeatable results, it will require a level of control not typically found in the oxymoron "organic farming" (there's no such thing really, nature doesnt do agriculture...).

Trout so what is it, organic vs sterile, greenhouse vs field, or mature vs immature, or homegrown vs store bought? Does it matter whether they were on a vine or not...

 

[troutman]

Sorry if I offend you Sativied.

Just stating that the tomatoes "I've" grown tasted better when they were ripened using organics outdoors.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

You and troutman are repeating a claim but I see zero valid argumentation to back up your opinion. Any recent scientific findings to back up your magic and that last statement? Don't bother, organic is like a religion, no point in discussing, you either believe in magic, or you don't. My statement however is like gravity. If terpene production can be influenced by nutrient availability it will require precision and timing to get repeatable results, it will require a level of control not typically found in the oxymoron "organic farming" (there's no such thing really, nature doesnt do agriculture...).

Trout so what is it, organic vs sterile, greenhouse vs field, or mature vs immature, or homegrown vs store bought? Does it matter whether they were on a vine or not...

To end this discussion well, I want to emphasize that I was sharing my opinion. I think soil biology is far too complex.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I do disagree,
I have been an organic Bio-dynamic farmer for some 50 years and experience is what tells me that no tomato that is not an heirloom variety and grown in organic soil will smell or taste as good as a tomato that is heirloom and organically grown. I do not need no fricking science my sense of smell and taste is all I need. As well as the hundreds of folks I have shared my tomatoes with, they all agree. People do the farming, be it organic or not, and the difference is obvious to the farmer and the consumer, at least in my experience. Organic not sterile, field or a greenhouse in the ground can be great, mature of course, homegrown or store bought is a farmers market actually both? As for on a vine, I am not sure, as I never leave tomatoes on vines I wait until ripe and pick them. I will say that if I do have an heirloom tomato that is still green they will ripen off the vine and still be better then any commercial tomatoes I can find in stores. I have grown dozens of heirloom tomatoes every year for decades and I know what tastes and smells better. These were grown in the earth, in my greenhouse, mostly by my wife who cooks them down into sauce, she likes varietal sauce, made with just one heirloom variety at a time, she made 5 or 6 different ones each year, then froze the sauce for using over the next year until harvest time next year. She made lots, by the gallon, we never ran out. I like great tomatoes for sandwiches with or without other ingredients on the sandwich. As well as salads, or tomatoes with old aged balsamic vinegar and buffalo mozzarella.
-SamS

You and troutman are repeating a claim but I see zero valid argumentation to back up your opinion. Any recent scientific findings to back up your magic and that last statement? Don't bother, organic is like a religion, no point in discussing, you either believe in magic, or you don't. My statement however is like gravity. If terpene production can be influenced by nutrient availability it will require precision and timing to get repeatable results, it will require a level of control not typically found in the oxymoron "organic farming" (there's no such thing really, nature doesnt do agriculture...).

Trout so what is it, organic vs sterile, greenhouse vs field, or mature vs immature, or homegrown vs store bought? Does it matter whether they were on a vine or not...

 

[numberguy]

Experience and opinion are two very different things. experience proves things, opinions need proving. Valid argumentation to back up experience comes from others experience of the same. If enough people experience the same results there is something to quantify. Dirtless has had decades to prove your statement as gravity but it has not proven to be true, so the question was asked the answer was proffered from experience, not some scientific paper by those who are not as experienced. The b of b are here, not in some research institute who knows where. If you do not grow that hothouse tomato the proper way you can not say it does'nt measure up, great genetics can be overshadowed by poor conditions. I enjoy

 

[bsgospel]

opinions need proving.

 

[Nirrity]

Is it the same clone? That is question number one.

Are the lower terpene levels because that crop was grown to hot or damaged in some way? While the higher %'s were grown better?

Is the high Terpene levels high or normal and it is the other examples that have been lowered because of bad management?

5% terpenes is quite high, but you can find higher. This requires the right variety that when grown correctly will express high terpene %'s. So it is a combination of the right varieties and proper cultivation and harvesting and processing and storage techniques.

-SamS

Hi Sam, that is the question indeed. I don't know. I thought you may assume by looking at the results.

How would bad management affect terpene content/ratio?

My understanding is that say hotter growing area or hotter processing/fermenting would result not only in a lower terpene content, but would also affect terpene ratio as monoterpenes are more volatile than sesquiterpenes. As a result we would see different ratio of terepenes - higher overall caryophyllene content. And that is indeed the case for the sample with lowest terpene content, where the terpinolene:caryophyllene ratio is 2:1 while for two other samples it is 6:1. Still, for these 2 other samples the ratio difference is nearly negligible, while overall terpenes content differs 1,5 (5,45% vs 3,62%). Following your information about microbiota i guess it can be assumed that higher terpene sample is from the batch grown with higher beneficial microorganism/soil... Is that correct?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I can guess but I do not know for sure.
-SamS

Hi Sam, that is the question indeed. I don't know. I thought you may assume by looking at the results.

How would bad management affect terpene content/ratio?

My understanding is that say hotter growing area or hotter processing/fermenting would result not only in a lower terpene content, but would also affect terpene ratio as monoterpenes are more volatile than sesquiterpenes. As a result we would see different ratio of terepenes - higher overall caryophyllene content. And that is indeed the case for the sample with lowest terpene content, where the terpinolene:caryophyllene ratio is 2:1 while for two other samples it is 6:1. Still, for these 2 other samples the ratio difference is nearly negligible, while overall terpenes content differs 1,5 (5,45% vs 3,62%). Following your information about microbiota i guess it can be assumed that higher terpene sample is from the batch grown with higher beneficial microorganism/soil... Is that correct?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I do not think i have posted this before?

Evolution of the Cannabinoid and Terpene Content during the Growth of Cannabis sativa Plants from different Chemotypes.
Oier Aizpurua-Olaizola, Umut Soydaner, Ekin Öztürk, Daniele Schibano, Yilmaz Simsir,
Patricia Navarro, Nestor Etxebarria, and Aresatz Usobiaga
DOI: 10.1021/acs.jnatprod.5b00949
J. Nat. Prod.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

I do not think i have posted this before?

Evolution of the Cannabinoid and Terpene Content during the Growth of Cannabis sativa Plants from different Chemotypes.
Oier Aizpurua-Olaizola, Umut Soydaner, Ekin Öztürk, Daniele Schibano, Yilmaz Simsir,
Patricia Navarro, Nestor Etxebarria, and Aresatz Usobiaga
DOI: 10.1021/acs.jnatprod.5b00949
J. Nat. Prod.

how to you find the full article without getting this message:

Your current credentials do not allow retrieval of the full text.

If I recall correctly, you gave a link to enter the DOIs but I cant find it.

 

[troutman]

how to you find the full article.

Click the blue "Download full-text PDF" button in the top right.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...nabis_sativa_Plants_from_Different_Chemotypes

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

I do not think i have posted this before?

Evolution of the Cannabinoid and Terpene Content during the Growth of Cannabis sativa Plants from different Chemotypes.
Oier Aizpurua-Olaizola, Umut Soydaner, Ekin Öztürk, Daniele Schibano, Yilmaz Simsir,
Patricia Navarro, Nestor Etxebarria, and Aresatz Usobiaga
DOI: 10.1021/acs.jnatprod.5b00949
J. Nat. Prod.

Thanks Sam,
I was just wondering about that same topic a couple days ago with respect to how harvest state affects cannabinoid ratios. I can only assume that the results in this article might be particular to the type of lighting they use.
That 0.6% THCA in the leaves of the young plants makes me wonder how many seeds it would take the get high harvesting at 2 weeks post sprout. If you get about 0.1g dry weight per plant then you'd need about 2000 seeds to extract a gram of THC (if you could find a way to squeeze the THC out of those little leaves with reasonable efficiency). 26 harvests a year on one light using nothing but paper towels for growing media in a room no taller than a shoebox sounds almost economical until you factor the $100,000/harvest seed expense (assuming you only run top gear from quality breeders).

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

Or use sci-hub.cc with the title or DOI
-SamS

how to you find the full article without getting this message:

Your current credentials do not allow retrieval of the full text.

If I recall correctly, you gave a link to enter the DOIs but I cant find it.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

on page 3, on the graphs, looking at the chemotype 1 flowers, we see that peak THCA is a right in between day 165 and 172.

on page 4, on the graphs, looking at the chemotype 1 flowers , we see that both monoterpenes and sesquiterpenes peaked at day 172 then start to go down.

In this example, we can conclude that thca peaked just before the terps did, but they start going down together.

Sam do you think this would be true for all cannabis plants, so that if you grow the same clone over and over you could simply find at how many days in flower is needed to reach peak terpenes and assume that thca would be at it's peak as well.?

I am only starting to experiment with letting certain plants go longer or earlier, I am confident I can figure out peak terpenes with my nose with a little practice.

 

[Gr33nSanta]

Now looking at chemotype 2 plants, you can see that the difference between day 150 and 179 is not that big.

Considering the economics of running a flower room an extra 30 days, makes me feel like the chemotype 2 varieties could be harvested super early if you are only after the molecules (thca, cbda)

The longer you wait the more volatile terpenes you get (monoterpenes), but it seems as though the sesquiterpenes are nearly all there super early in the cycle.

If someone simply wants to make a 1:1 thc - cbd capsules, chemotype 2 could be harvested much sooner.

correct?

 

[PDX Dopesmoker]

on page 3, on the graphs, looking at the chemotype 1 flowers, we see that peak THCA is a right in between day 165 and 172.

on page 4, on the graphs, looking at the chemotype 1 flowers , we see that both monoterpenes and sesquiterpenes peaked at day 172 then start to go down.

In this example, we can conclude that thca peaked just before the terps did, but they start going down together.

Sam do you think this would be true for all cannabis plants, so that if you grow the same clone over and over you could simply find at how many days in flower is needed to reach peak terpenes and assume that thca would be at it's peak as well.?

I am only starting to experiment with letting certain plants go longer or earlier, I am confident I can figure out peak terpenes with my nose with a little practice.

Its an interesting article, but I'm not sure that the results would be exactly repeatable if you're not growing the in same conditions as they did with the same plants. It is probably a very good generalization, but similar research experiments with a larger variety of genetics in more varieties of conditions would probably tease out different results, very interesting ones probably. Varying terp profiles probably have variable degradation characteristics. If THCA degradation is light driven then varying lighting conditions might produce different results, etc.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that using your nose and endocannabinoid system is the easiest way to get an idea of what peak results are, you could cut buds off a flowering plant every few days starting at around 4-5 weeks after flowering starts and have a handle on the topic with respect to your own strains & growing environment pretty quick that way. Bouns: it would increase the variety in your rosin stash too.
Sorry for replying without being Sam btw, its a fascinating topic & I couldn't resist.