Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[timmur]

Your numbers seem off. 2 pounds from two 315s would be no problem from what everyone is saying. One third less electricity and one third less heat are also big plusses.

You are hesitating because of the expense! But these phantom systems have now brought plug and play CMH into an affordable zone. Greenbeams are definitely top notch, but I'm not personally going to pay hundreds more for a system when the phantom hood should give very similar results.

Remains to be seen if you'd really get similar results. You'll get the spectrum,energy savings, etc... but you won't get the uniformity you get with the Greenbeams. Hard to say what that's worth, but it could mean increased yield. With that said, it still may not be worth it for the Greenbeams. It's an ROI question and not one easily answered without some direct experience or valid comparisons.

 

[milkyjoe]

Yea...I put in conservative numbers. But I take all internet yield numbers with a grain of salt...hope they are true but don't plan on them

 

[Hammerhead]

I was going to add 2 more CMH ballast to my veg room but damn are they expensive(400$) for just the ballast.

 

[Avenger]

Simply based on economics especially for large production rooms, I don't think it would be sincere of me to recommend anything other than DE HPS at this time.

you can of course review the excellent work of Jacob Nelson and Dr. Bugbee, and come to your own conclusions.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010

 

[rives]

What is the expected longevity of a DE lamp?

 

[Jhhnn]

Yea...I put in conservative numbers. But I take all internet yield numbers with a grain of salt...hope they are true but don't plan on them

Agreed. I figure that seedmaker claims are likely optimistic. They're usually in the 300-400 grams per sq meter range. My last grow of cantaloupe skunk was my best yield yet, an honest 500g of trimmed bud + 120g of close trim & popcorn from a 4x4 space. I'm sure that expert & attentive hydro growers/ scroggers could improve on that somewhat but I'm not that kind of grower.

The other common metric, grams/watt, leaves a lot to be desired because it doesn't account for veg time. Just veg 'em big to puff up that number. Grams per kilowatt hour would be much better but nobody wants to do the math.

 

[Hammerhead]

What is the expected longevity of a DE lamp?

I'm going on 2 years now I see no difference from when I 1st installed them. I don't normally keep them at 1k all the time. I run then at 750-825 most of the time.

 

[frostqueen]

Remains to be seen if you'd really get similar results. You'll get the spectrum,energy savings, etc... but you won't get the uniformity you get with the Greenbeams. Hard to say what that's worth, but it could mean increased yield. With that said, it still may not be worth it for the Greenbeams. It's an ROI question and not one easily answered without some direct experience or valid comparisons.

True. Everyone has to decide for their own situation. I got delayed until after the holidays on my upgrades, so the wallet still hasn't been dragged out yet.

We don't quite know that the Greenbeams is superior to the Phantom yet. I bet that it likely is, but just saying... Hydrofarm has built a ton of reflectors over the years; you'd hope they wouldn't totally suck at it. I will admit that I prefer a square design to circular. People who are using other DIY reflectors/systems like Rives and others seem to be doing really well.

What I would love to see soon is a really good side-by-side test and review done with good measuring equipment. Cycloptics vs. Phantom. Not going to hold my breath, though. These lights are like the best thing that nobody seems to be talking about anywhere.

 

[milkyjoe]

Can you even do a good side by side in a single room?

For example...say instead of 1 de I put greenbeams. Isnt there gonna be enough mixing of the lights to make that test invalid.

I can't even think of a good way to run the test other than different rooms same genetics

 

[McKush]

What is the expected longevity of a DE lamp?

Philips DE is a great bulb

PPF maintenance is 95% at 10k hours

Life to 10% failure at 10k hours


http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/lamps/high-intensity-discharge-lamps/hid-horticulture/horti/928196305116_EU/product

So 2 to 3 years depending on use. At replacement the bulb is only 95% tho so you may not see much apparent diff and i bet people run them fine much longer than that.

 

[frostqueen]

Can you even do a good side by side in a single room?

For example...say instead of 1 de I put greenbeams. Isnt there gonna be enough mixing of the lights to make that test invalid.

I can't even think of a good way to run the test other than different rooms same genetics

That would be the way to do it. Separate rooms would give the clearest results. As long as you can dial in all other environmental factors, that is.

The kind of test I want to see between the cycloptics and the phantom reflectors is the kind Betatestteam has done with other lights/reflectors. I want to know about general light distribution as well as any potential hot spots.

 

[beta]

.

 

[CHEFfy]

The phantom reflectors do have airflow around the lamp... Slits at the bottom and the piece covering the socket stands off of the rest of the reflector. For those that were curious.

 

[milkyjoe]

It is the diffuse blue light that is whispering to me. Black box, high altitude (pure blue skies) and finished with 12 hours of light has no comparison period. The greenbeams seem to be the closest thing to that.

But how to quantify...just a leap of faith?

I will read that link tonight Avenger

 

[Avenger]

If economics is not the main consideration, then yes the Greenbeam with the Philips 942 lamp is what I would recommend. And since I am being finicky, I will stick with the Philips ballast.

But this recommendation is rife with my personal bias.

 

[milkyjoe]

I get that. No question quality "should" be better. And it ain't like the difference in payback is a deal breaker. Just some old corporate programming stuck in me brain.

Hell I could phase it in, in 1/3rds or something like that.

I am not normally indecisive. I feel like why go part way to the best quality...ummm that cost analysis. Fuck my brain right now...it ain't making me happy

Edit...I know if I had to write a white paper and justify to a board...it would be de. Maybe for good reason...but that is profit...what about quality

 

[Jhhnn]

The phantom reflectors do have airflow around the lamp... Slits at the bottom and the piece covering the socket stands off of the rest of the reflector. For those that were curious.

Kewl. Good to know.

 

[milkyjoe]

So Avenger...lets say I go 1/3...167 sq ft, 14 ft ceilings, room is 20 ft wide. You know what size plants. How many greenbeams...sealed room, humidity, temp and co2 control.

Ultimately 500 sq ft

Edit dos...plus rewiring the rooms, different controls, misc

 

[timmur]

I get that. No question quality "should" be better. And it ain't like the difference in payback is a deal breaker. Just some old corporate programming stuck in me brain.

Hell I could phase it in, in 1/3rds or something like that.

I am not normally indecisive. I feel like why go part way to the best quality...ummm that cost analysis. Fuck my brain right now...it ain't making me happy

Edit...I know if I had to write a white paper and justify to a board...it would be de. Maybe for good reason...but that is profit...what about quality

Greenbeams could be justified over DE HPS depending on the how the ROI question is approached. Internal Rate of Return, Simple Payback, etc... would likely give a different answer. Also if reports are true about shorter cycle time for CMH vs HPS then it could easily favor the Greenbeams. Take a look at the economic analysis for how a good comparison between the two competing techs should be evaluated. Certainly on more than just energy efficiency.

Quality should be improved with CMH over HPS as you said, but the question is can you get a premium for this improved quality. If so then you just need to quantify it for comparison sake.

Also note that the attached was a comparison using standard HPS, not DE. It is much harder for CMH to compete against those cheap photons from the DE tech.

 

[Jhhnn]

Simply based on economics especially for large production rooms, I don't think it would be sincere of me to recommend anything other than DE HPS at this time.

you can of course review the excellent work of Jacob Nelson and Dr. Bugbee, and come to your own conclusions.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099010

If economics is not the main consideration, then yes the Greenbeam with the Philips 942 lamp is what I would recommend. And since I am being finicky, I will stick with the Philips ballast.

But this recommendation is rife with my personal bias.

I think you're right about larger grows. OTOH, CDM is great for truly small growers like myself who don't want to go all out w/ sealed rooms & climate control. 630w of CDM in a 4x4 enclosure is giving me great results so far in this first grow with them & produce way less heat than my former 1000w setup. It's in the same ballpark, anyway, & they're a lot cheaper to run, too. I dialed the fans down considerably for less noise & lower temps, both winners in my situation.

They're stealthier in terms of spectrum, too. Bright white light is one thing while the orangey-pink output of HPS is entirely another because they're rarely used for anything but growing. They were replaced by MH in new construction industrial lighting applications decades ago.