Philips 315w CDM Elite (CMH)

[Jhhnn]

You are right that I wouldn't hesitate to run (4) 315's on a T-100. However, that is because the T-100 has an electronic ballast rating of 16a @ 277v. The 120v ballasts might send me on a quest for more information, though.

While it can give the user some indication, it really isn't possible to accurately extrapolate a device's current rating from one type of load to another. A given device may be designed to reliably switch one type of load, but the design may inherently be unsuitable for another. Low-amperage DC loads, for instance, need a "wiping" action at the contacts to minimize the buildup of an insulating oxidation of the contacts while higher-amperage DC needs blow-out magnets or coils to extinguish the arc and a straight contact actuation. Many loads require specific design criteria that may be irrelevant, or even incompatible, with other applications.

If you look at the specifications tab on the following link, you will see the T-100 series carries a 40a rating for resistive, inductive, and tungsten loads; drops to 24-28a for motor loads; and drops further to 16a for electronic ballasts.

http://www.intermatic.com/en/products/timeswitches/mechanicalswitches/24hour/t100series

I get all that. I worked on transit buses & then light rail vehicles for decades. My greatest expertise was in electrical. The LRV's have extremely complex & varied systems that would boggle the mind of electrical laymen. It starts as 750vdc from the overhead wire & is then converted to several DC & AC voltages to operate a complex array of nearly any kind & size of load imaginable.

My point is that inductive & capacitive loads share the high inrush current characteristic that other AC loads lack. Incandescent lamps act the same way to a lesser degree. The other side of it is that the only indication of nearly all switching devices' ability to handle that is in the HP rating. It's what we have to go on.

Other than that, we're mostly guessing in an educated sort of way. After researching it a little, this timer is likely better than the one I'm using-

http://www.munroelectric.com/silvereclipse/images/drill/362436.pdf

Something like this is required, as well, for 15A receptacles-

https://www.amazon.com/Conntek-1F51...1474075610&sr=8-1&keywords=15a+to+20a+adapter

I'm keen on more people growing their own. 315's are excellent for that. In order for that to happen, truly safe plug and play solutions need to exist. I'm appalled at the level of knowledge & the universal availability of 1/4HP timers at grow stores. It's all they carry around here yet people seem to be able to avoid burning down the house using them even on 1000w systems.

 

[RightOnTarget]

2nd full run with the 315 in d'pap and I like it more and more.
Chopped yesterday @d57.

View image in gallery​

 

[cannaisok]

looking delicious! whats smartpot size? organics or mineral?
thanks

 

[P-NUT]

I just saw growershouse has a galaxy 315 ballast now. Anybody tried 1 yet?

 

[rives]

My point is that inductive & capacitive loads share the high inrush current characteristic that other AC loads lack. Incandescent lamps act the same way to a lesser degree. The other side of it is that the only indication of nearly all switching devices' ability to handle that is in the HP rating. It's what we have to go on.

Jhhnn, I understood your point. However, it is only partially correct. Yes, both types of loads have a high inrush. However, capacitive loads are VASTLY higher, usually by a factor of at least 10. AC motors typically have a starting current that is from 3 to 9 times the running current. The inrush on a capacitive load is 50 to 100 times the running current. The duration of each is so wildly different that a meaningful comparison is very difficult. Your original post stated that a timer that was capable of handling a 373w motor load would be adequate for a 315 ballast, which with ballast losses, is roughly a 1:1 equivalence. The timer would certainly function for a time, but is unlikely to have good long-term reliability.

The contact-destroying nature of electronic ballasts has led both UL and NEMA to establish new testing and rating standards. Many timers and relays now carry an "electronic ballast" rating, like the Intermatic T-100 series spec that I linked above (which is rated at 16a for electronic ballasts and 28a for motors at 277v and 240v, respectively). If the incredibly robust T-100 drops the electronic ballast rating to 57% of the motor rating, a substantial safety margin would be a damn good idea when using motor-load ratings as a guideline for our application.

Some related links that you might find interesting -

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/i..._photo_controls/photocontrols_white_paper.pdf

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/controlrelay/catalog/controlrelay_catalog.pdf

 

[RightOnTarget]

looking delicious! whats smartpot size? organics or mineral?
thanks

Thanks!
25 litres of BioBizz All-mix, BB Grow/Bloom and molasses.

 

[m8ch1n3]

Hi Everyone!

I would really appreciate it if someone could share their thoughts on the following:

I have stage IV cancer of the lymphatic system and an Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Unfortunately, there is no cure for either one. I'll be moving soon to legal state, in pursuit of a better quality of life. However, the place that I have chosen, has plant restrictions. I am sure I will easily qualify for the medical access, however, I am trying to see if I will be able to produce a sufficient amount of medicine on my own. Except for the evenings, I have always preferred Sativa over Indica. And will primarily focus on this type of a plant, ideally pure landrace sativas.

The state where I'll be moving to has a plant limit for any resident, that only allows for 3 plants in flowering.

I really want to focus on developing an optimal method for growing pure landrace sativas with a 4200K 315W CMH bulb, under the 3-max-flowering-plants constrain.

Question: Is it possible to grow quality, healthy, and happy TREES with a VERTICAL bare-bulb setup using a sufficient number of 315W CMH bulbs?

Constrained by the 3-plant limit, I am thinking along the lines of something like this:

X=Plant
O=Bare 315W Bulb(s)

XOX
OXO

This will be an entirely ORGANIC grow. At first I want to KISS, and will probably just use very large AIR-POTS, SMARTPOTS, or their equivalents. However, down the road, I plant to move towards an active hydroponics system. Perhaps something similar to a DIY version of a MEGAFARM, which has a 20-gallon growing chamber and a 20-gallon reservoir.

So say if I grow 3 TREES, with 3 columns of 3-4 315W CMH bare bulbs in each column, would the 315W bare bulbs, be able to sufficiently penetrate the trees that have been veged for a long time?

I am only anticipating round 2-3 crops per year, because of the much longer life cycle of a pure landrace sativas, and the fact that I may be limited by a maximum of 3 plants.

Cliffs: Is it possible to grow quality and high-yielding TREES, with stacked 315W bulbs, utilizing a vertical bare-bulb setup and a long veg period?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Jhhnn]

Jhhnn, I understood your point. However, it is only partially correct. Yes, both types of loads have a high inrush. However, capacitive loads are VASTLY higher, usually by a factor of at least 10. AC motors typically have a starting current that is from 3 to 9 times the running current. The inrush on a capacitive load is 50 to 100 times the running current. The duration of each is so wildly different that a meaningful comparison is very difficult. Your original post stated that a timer that was capable of handling a 373w motor load would be adequate for a 315 ballast, which with ballast losses, is roughly a 1:1 equivalence. The timer would certainly function for a time, but is unlikely to have good long-term reliability.

The contact-destroying nature of electronic ballasts has led both UL and NEMA to establish new testing and rating standards. Many timers and relays now carry an "electronic ballast" rating, like the Intermatic T-100 series spec that I linked above (which is rated at 16a for electronic ballasts and 28a for motors at 277v and 240v, respectively). If the incredibly robust T-100 drops the electronic ballast rating to 57% of the motor rating, a substantial safety margin would be a damn good idea when using motor-load ratings as a guideline for our application.

Some related links that you might find interesting -

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/i..._photo_controls/photocontrols_white_paper.pdf

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/controlrelay/catalog/controlrelay_catalog.pdf

I always appreciate your calm & respectful tone, even when we're not quite on the same page.

You're right, of course, in saying that safety is of the utmost concern. We can agree that there are practical limits to that & unintended consequences for the technically challenged, of whom there are many. What seems simple enough for the two of us, wiring up a T100 timer, for example, gives them an opportunity to create a hazard they can avoid using plug and play hardware.

We also think of equipment reliability in terms of decades rather than years simply because of our industrial backgrounds. I doubt that 120v 315 ballasts are built to that sort of standard. Other grower grade electronic ballasts certainly aren't. It's also important to recognize that common failure modes aren't catastrophic- the stuff just quits working. That's the common failure mode for household timers, I believe.

The ultimate solution for hobby growers, I think, would be 120v 315 ballasts with integrated timers. In the meanwhile, you set the gears to spinning & I'll upgrade my veggie light to the 1HP Intermatic timer before I use it again next spring. De-rating it by 75% really should be adequate.

 

[Jhhnn]

Hi Everyone!

I would really appreciate it if someone could share their thoughts on the following:

I have stage IV cancer of the lymphatic system and an Inflammatory Bowel Disease. Unfortunately, there is no cure for either one. I'll be moving soon to legal state, in pursuit of a better quality of life. However, the place that I have chosen, has plant restrictions. I am sure I will easily qualify for the medical access, however, I am trying to see if I will be able to produce a sufficient amount of medicine on my own. Except for the evenings, I have always preferred Sativa over Indica. And will primarily focus on this type of a plant, ideally pure landrace sativas.

The state where I'll be moving to has a plant limit for any resident, that only allows for 3 plants in flowering.

I really want to focus on developing an optimal method for growing pure landrace sativas with a 4200K 315W CMH bulb, under the 3-max-flowering-plants constrain.

Question: Is it possible to grow quality, healthy, and happy TREES with a VERTICAL bare-bulb setup using a sufficient number of 315W CMH bulbs?

Constrained by the 3-plant limit, I am thinking along the lines of something like this:

X=Plant
O=Bare 315W Bulb(s)

XOX
OXO

This will be an entirely ORGANIC grow. At first I want to KISS, and will probably just use very large AIR-POTS, SMARTPOTS, or their equivalents. However, down the road, I plant to move towards an active hydroponics system. Perhaps something similar to a DIY version of a MEGAFARM, which has a 20-gallon growing chamber and a 20-gallon reservoir.

So say if I grow 3 TREES, with 3 columns of 3-4 315W CMH bare bulbs in each column, would the 315W bare bulbs, be able to sufficiently penetrate the trees that have been veged for a long time?

I am only anticipating round 2-3 crops per year, because of the much longer life cycle of a pure landrace sativas, and the fact that I may be limited by a maximum of 3 plants.

Cliffs: Is it possible to grow quality and high-yielding TREES, with stacked 315W bulbs, utilizing a vertical bare-bulb setup and a long veg period?

Thank you in advance!

I can't speak to growing trees but we can get 3 lbs/year or so so of trimmed bud per year from 6 plants under twin 315's even with 12 weeks flowering after 6 weeks of veg. Given your situation, obtaining extended plant counts under Colorado's MMJ statutes shouldn't be a problem at all.

Hybrid sativas are generally more productive than landrace varieties & are readily available from Ace, Cannabiogen, Original Delicatessen & others, I'm sure. I'll be starting my first "landrace" variety, Centennial seeds' Rio Negro Colombian, at the end of the month.

 

[rives]

I always appreciate your calm & respectful tone, even when we're not quite on the same page.

You're right, of course, in saying that safety is of the utmost concern. We can agree that there are practical limits to that & unintended consequences for the technically challenged, of whom there are many. What seems simple enough for the two of us, wiring up a T100 timer, for example, gives them an opportunity to create a hazard they can avoid using plug and play hardware.

We also think of equipment reliability in terms of decades rather than years simply because of our industrial backgrounds. I doubt that 120v 315 ballasts are built to that sort of standard. Other grower grade electronic ballasts certainly aren't. It's also important to recognize that common failure modes aren't catastrophic- the stuff just quits working. That's the common failure mode for household timers, I believe.

The ultimate solution for hobby growers, I think, would be 120v 315 ballasts with integrated timers. In the meanwhile, you set the gears to spinning & I'll upgrade my veggie light to the 1HP Intermatic timer before I use it again next spring. De-rating it by 75% really should be adequate.

For me, reliability is key. For many people, a timer failure would be readily noticed and fixed without incurring substantial problems. I'm out of town for a couple of weeks a month, and a failure would be a bit more of a issue if it occurred early on. As you said, my background tells me that I should be able to reasonably expect a lifetime of reliable operation if the components are spec'd out appropriately. Murphy is invariably standing in the wings, but there is no reason to give him easy access.

 

[dbkick]

I just saw growershouse has a galaxy 315 ballast now. Anybody tried 1 yet?

I'm picking up two in a few moments. I've no longer support sunplix, lets see how galaxy does.

 

[Rolando Mota]

I bought three more of the phantoms, one ballast doesn't fire though.

 

[nukklehead]

Jhhnn, I understood your point. However, it is only partially correct. Yes, both types of loads have a high inrush. However, capacitive loads are VASTLY higher, usually by a factor of at least 10. AC motors typically have a starting current that is from 3 to 9 times the running current. The inrush on a capacitive load is 50 to 100 times the running current. The duration of each is so wildly different that a meaningful comparison is very difficult. Your original post stated that a timer that was capable of handling a 373w motor load would be adequate for a 315 ballast, which with ballast losses, is roughly a 1:1 equivalence. The timer would certainly function for a time, but is unlikely to have good long-term reliability.

The contact-destroying nature of electronic ballasts has led both UL and NEMA to establish new testing and rating standards. Many timers and relays now carry an "electronic ballast" rating, like the Intermatic T-100 series spec that I linked above (which is rated at 16a for electronic ballasts and 28a for motors at 277v and 240v, respectively). If the incredibly robust T-100 drops the electronic ballast rating to 57% of the motor rating, a substantial safety margin would be a damn good idea when using motor-load ratings as a guideline for our application.

Some related links that you might find interesting -

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/i..._photo_controls/photocontrols_white_paper.pdf

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/controlrelay/catalog/controlrelay_catalog.pdf

Ok Rives and Jhnn..

Im loving your conversation as a non sparky and trying to understand but as a non sparky to no avail..

My question is I have a T-100 that I ran a 1K mag off for a few years and due to age and disability I am dialing down to a
315cmh system. My intentions were to run the 315 off the same
T-100 timer that my 1k ran off of... is this still safe or should
I find another means of "timing"?.. BTW circuit is dedicated 15 amp...
Thanks

Nuk

 

[rives]

Ok Rives and Jhnn..

Im loving your conversation as a non sparky and trying to understand but as a non sparky to no avail..

My question is I have a T-100 that I ran a 1K mag off for a few years and due to age and disability I am dialing down to a
315cmh system. My intentions were to run the 315 off the same
T-100 timer that my 1k ran off of... is this still safe or should
I find another means of "timing"?.. BTW circuit is dedicated 15 amp...
Thanks

Nuk

The T-100 is fine - it is perhaps the heaviest-duty timer that is available without going to large, separate contactors. They are rated at 17 amps of electronic ballast load, and a 315 will only be a small fraction of that.

 

[nukklehead]

The T-100 is fine - it is perhaps the heaviest-duty timer that is available without going to large, separate contactors. They are rated at 17 amps of electronic ballast load, and a 315 will only be a small fraction of that.

-

 

[Old Moses]

Hello I just want to stop by and say thanks a lot you all for such good quality information, loads of it, that Im just getting touch with through the past weeks of massive reading

I fired my system in twenty June, some conversion kit a maxibright ballast Phillips green power 930 bulb an adapter to mogul base socket in my currently open fixture and let me tell.....I have never been more happy and satisfied with the results Im getting. I could notice clearly improvements in terpene and density of my buds and really appreciating.

Im just about to order one more conversion kit cuz my goal is to cover an area of 1,30m width x1,70 length and 3 meters height.

 

[Old Moses]

just some pics of my first cycle with the 315w

just some pics of my first cycle with the 315w

Just some pics I think would share

it was my first plant to flower under a CMH315w and only for 30 days the last weeks of the cycle....

headband


harvested one oz dry of some marvelous dense buds

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Basic question but for the professional growers here what are you pulling dry per 315?

 

[rives]

Basic question but for the professional growers here what are you pulling dry per 315?

I'm no pro, but since you aren't getting any answers, I'll tell you my results. I am mainly set up for convenience and low maintenance since I am regularly on the road for 10-12 days a month. I use Blumats, V+B, and prune the shit out of things to simplify trimming later. I consistently pull right at or slightly over a gram per watt (dried to 62%), and I don't run high-yielding strains.

Hope that helps.

 

[Hammerhead]

I'm running a mix of HPS/CMH. I just pulled 43+oz from 2.6kw. 2 kw hps, 600 cmh. I run trees. if I used trellis/nets I could do better.