passive plant killer

[delta9nxs]

i think the salt buildup occurs in the bottom part of a conventional top watered container because
allowing the pwt to exist mandates that you water less frequently. As a result the medium is alternately either mostly too wet or mostly too dry. Rarely is it at the perfect point of moisture. The moisture profile passes through this perfect point but doesn't stay there long. This wetting and drying cycle concentrates nutrients in the medium. This in turn messes with ph.

By eliminating the pwt with a wick and feeding small amounts frequently you are keeping the moisture profile more stable. The water is continuously moving through the medium at very slow speed. Slow motion hydro. Keeping the air porosity nearly ideal. The plants love this treatment.

When I began watering 4 oz's every 2 hours in veg growth rate went up noticeably. this in combination with sub-irrigation. Without the sub feed you would want a greater volume.

The problem here is that most people can't hover over their grow shooting basters full of solution 10 times a day.

This is why I automated the top watering. It does a far better job than I could.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Hi D9,

I pulled all but 3 wicks out and left it overnight. This morning there does not seem to be any difference.

I found and carefully re-read your moisture test:
Maybe I'm making too big a deal of this. When I squeeze a small fistful I get a few drops running out. I dump 4 liters of water in the PPK and almost instantly its starts draining into the rez.

I have read where its supposed to be impossible to overwater coco. Is this literally true for any grade of coco? I really have no idea what the "good stuff" looks like.

Thanks D9,
OO

good evening, OO!

well, there are several aspects to this.

when you first load coco into your container and water it in the whole medium is probably a little too wet. depending on how you hook your medium up to it's water source it takes some time for the water/air porosity to come to equilibrium. so an initial check may be a little too wet. i load my container, hook it up, and let it run for a day. it's just right then. the sub system is pulling excess out while the top system keeps adjusting to the correct moisture level.

the other thing is that it tends to run drier once you get some root growth. water moves through the container easier.

let it sit for a while and check the top only. i wouldn't sweat a couple drops dripping off as long as it's not a large amount.

i'm curious about how the shallow 4" medium will do.

in the container nurseries, the general consensus is that taller, narrower containers are better than shorter, fatter ones. this belief is prevalent because of the pwt.

remember the pwt exists at the same height with the same medium regardless of container shape or size.

so in a taller, thinner container it occupies less volume.

but if you eliminate the pwt shape doesn't matter nearly as much as long as you have adequate volume.

maybe using a shallower medium would obviate the need for any top watering as coco will wick 7-8".

i would still wet it out from the top once in a while to force salts downward.

later

 

[oldone]

good evening D9,

Ive have a bit of a puzzle going on. Today I bit the bullet and went to my local hydro shop to buy coco. All they had was Botanicare so I came home with a bag of loose cocogrow. I wanted to try some higher quality coco.

So I rinse about 10 liters of coco with 8 L of RO water. I got about 5 L runoff.

The EC was 2.0...wtf? But it doesn't taste salty. Its also as wet as the generic stuff, but its only been a few hours.

I'm not really sure what to do next.
OO

 

[Carl Carlson]

oldone I've used those bags before and it's never been higher than EC .8 out of the bag. 2.0 is a whopper. I guess that tells us how uniform the production process is not.

 

[delta9nxs]

OO, i would just rinse it heavily with regular tap water first. with a five gal bucket i will use approx 20 gals. i let it drain. then i pour about 5 gals of regular nutrient solution through it at full strength. this is done slowly, a little at a time.

sounds like botanicare, like atami b'cuzz, is pretreated to satisfy the initial cec issue. is the botanicare stuff moist in the bag? if so, that
moisture is necessary for the nutrients to work on the coco.

some say leave it in, some rinse it out. i prefer to rinse it out and start over with something i'm really sure about.

 

[*mistress*]

cheapo dep0t hohm & l0ws mulch-type c0c0 work well. not so much fine particles as the h!dro sh0p type... finer particles tend to become soggy mush, underneath root ball, similar to conpacted fine perlite.
so many different grades of coco, difficult to find 1 that work for ea cut...
maybe, found that larger piece-type dont permit accumulation of moisture in center of container - similar to how peat sumtyme do...
regular orchid bark, or bark mulch (medium) work well, too.

fwiw, applying h202 wkly give oxygen to potentially soggy, anaerobic coco.
while 95% keep coco nearly wet, maybe found that moist top 1/3 of media work well - not wet, espcially if maintain 24/7 sub-irrigation water. feed/water 1x/day, full strength fert, w/ cal% ~ same as nit%. (n03:ca = 1:1) end...

50/50 coco/perl seem give good result, consist...


@ delta9nxs...

tech for germing bean in turphace?

 

[Carl Carlson]

The larger the particle size, the more air and the less easily available water.

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, mistress, i don't germ in turface. what i do is the old soak and paper towel method to pop 'em. as soon as they pop i go to a 3oz cup of worm castings. i cut one of the corners of the cup so water will drain. when they get to 3-4" i'll move them into turface and start nutes.

 

[*mistress*]

aer, wahter & sub-irry...teehee...

aer, wahter & sub-irry...teehee...

The larger the particle size, the more air and the less easily available water.

yes...& no...
yes...ideal air content of substrate is ~25%. 25% water content...
no...water availability does not decrease w/ more air space.

why? the plants' roots absorb water & nutrients as a thin film on collidial particles - syze of the particles dont seem matter, as long as a thin film of moiture is present. crevices of perlite give area for water to be held on...more oxygen present encourages aerobic activity & gnerally enhances the process of cation exchange.

100% perlite far easier to manage than 100% coco, due to c0c0s affinity for holding on to certain cations & holding lots water in center of container.

water is available w/ larger or smaller particles....
watering 1/5-1/4 volume of container every 24-48hrs should provide abundant water... especially if run-off is collected in basin & remains as sub-irrigation nutrient solution.

common practices in greenhouse crop production, using 100% perlite:

the bag-reservoir method is based on 30-liter polyethylene bags (bolsters) filled with perlite and supporting three plants each. its key feature is that horizontal slits are cut about 3-4 cm up from the base of the bag. in this open system, any excess nutrient solution applied collects to a depth of 3-4 cm in the bottom of the perlite in each bag.
aided by the high capillary action of perlite, this reservoir ensures an uninterrupted water supply to the plants with just a few irrigations per day and without placing a high demand on the irrigation system for uniform water delivery.

&
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3370756&postcount=180

coco:
ph - 6.1-6.5
ec - 260
total organic matter - 96-98%
cellulose - 20-30 w/w%
sodium - 78mg/l
potassium - 210 mg/l
calcium - .50mg/l
ammonium - .40mg/l
chloride - 70mg/l
sulfate - 11mg/l
carbon:nitrogen ration - 80:1
air-filled porosity - 9.5-12.5%
total pore space - 93-95%
lignin - 60-70 w/w dry%
phosphorus - 4-8mg/l
mag - 4-6mg/l
fe - 5-8mg/l
nitrate - .3-1mg/l
water-holding capacity 80-88%
color - light brown
appearance - earth granular w/ short fibers

perlite:
immediately above a water reservoir, holds 30% of its volume as water.
@ 20cm(8") above a water reservoir, perlite holds 19% its volume in water...

50/50 coco/perlite =

*coco water-holding capacity 80-88%
*@ 20cm(8") above a water reservoir, perlite holds 19% its volume in water...

maybe fed 1/5 volume container, every 2 days... full strength fert.
maybe, run-off become 2" water reservoir...
maybe passive hydroponics, using sub-irrigation of run-off as buffered res...

 

[Carl Carlson]

water availability does not decrease w/ more air space.

Ok, but I didn't say that it does.

w/in 24hrs, the 3 of the 4 gallons of water fed will either:
a) be dehumidified....
btw, in fiction, run-off is never dumped. no 20-30% leachate/run-off. no excessive waste of nutes or water...

I do the same thing via elevation and without the wick, but dehumidified, nutrified water is still wasted water and nutes.

 

[Carl Carlson]

interesting stuff on Turface here, especially as it relates to the perched water table:

Optimizing Greenhouse Corn Prodcution: What Is the Best Root Medium?, Derek Gambrel, Westin Rink, Tyler Mason, Justin Kottkamp, Arek Varjabedian, Jeannie Ross, Robert Eddy, and Daniel T. Hahn

from: PURDUE METHODS FOR CORN GROWTH

 

[*mistress*]

water availability does not decrease w/ more air space.

Ok, but I didn't say that it does.

?
see post 567:

The larger the particle size, the more air and the less easily available water.

another/different meaning?

but dehumidified, nutrified water is still wasted water and nutes.

dehumidified water can be re-used....
why not?
what is tech on specific harm of re-using dehumidified water from garden?

in nature, plantys transpire & water is re-used by entire planet... maybe rises as water vapor... & maybe become cloud... & then, maybe, rain - that falls back onto plantys & into earth...

maybe, every garden/er different

 

[Carl Carlson]

When we're talking about one substance and comparing different particle sizes of that product, as the particle size shrinks, less water is held.

***

Should clarify my statement on waste to say that dehumified nutes are wasted nutes and reused, dehumidified water is not wasted water.

 

[Carl Carlson]

Got my Jacks + YaraLiva today and yesterday figured out how to change some things around in order to fit the 2/3.5 gallon PPK.

Big thanks again to D9. Maybe for your next trick you can figure out how to fix the oil leak?

 

[delta9nxs]

Hey, people!

This system is working so good I'm bored. I'm not watering anything. I've totally relaxed the schedule for taking readings. Now i just pick a plant at random every few days and it's always good. Nothing has strayed out of preferred operating ranges since switching to jacks.

Plants are huge and beautiful. Buds are tight and heavy. Yields are large and consistent. A pot heads dream.

More importantly, I'm not hovering over my grow all the time, worried about whether or not I'm going to make it to harvest. Constantly doing small tds and ph corrections just to keep it in line. Worried about O2. Worried about electrical or pump failures. Worried about reservoir temperatures. Even though i'm operating two pumps in my top watering scheme, the sub-irrigation is still happening without power and will grow plants. Belts and suspenders. Those pumps are on 100 seconds per day in the veg system and 90 seconds per day on the flowering plants. Those same pumps ran 24/7 in my bio-bucket set up. Contrast electrical consumption.

After adding the second volume tank I can now go a complete week without mixing a nute solution. Then it takes 15 minutes.

There have been no leaks. And I don't have water sloshing all over the floor anymore. No algae. Water only goes in except for the 2 res's dumped every week and my coco conditioning routine. It totals 11 gals out of 149 so i'm doing a perpetual rolling weekly change of 7 %. All of this gets put on my outdoor garden or yard plants

Since switching to growing with one side presented I'm not focused on a rigid pruning routine anymore. I'm not turning every plant every day anymore.

Switching to coco from turface gave me much lighter containers to move. The difference is pronounced as 5 gals of wet turface can weigh 60 lbs or more.

This system is totally scalable. Adaptable to almost any size grow. A small sog or scrog in a tent or closet. Noiseless sub-irrigation. Also would work great in a warehouse or greenhouse.

Whether you are a brand new grower or a seasoned commercial grower this system offers reliable, low maintenance growing.

D9


Hey, Carl!

Wussup? Thank you for the links. A very interesting group of articles. I just wish they had included coco in their comparisons.

What oil?

 

[Carl Carlson]

The difference is pronounced as 5 gals of wet turface can weigh 60 lbs or more

yikes!

More importantly, I'm not hovering over my grow all the time, worried about whether or not I'm going to make it to harvest.... Those pumps are on 100 seconds per day in the veg system and 90 seconds per day on the flowering plants....Even though i'm operating two pumps in my top watering scheme, the sub-irrigation is still happening without power and will grow plants.

congratulations on all of that.

What oil?

it was a crude reference to the leak in the Gulf of Mexico and your problem solving abilities

 

[delta9nxs]

oh, that oil.

 

[delta9nxs]

that baby is in 5000 ft of water so i wouldn't be much help there. the deepest i've ever been is about 330 ft spearfishing at night on the vertical escarpment off carambola golf course in st. croix.

 

[Carl Carlson]

D9, as far as scalability goes, do you have a ratio in mind in terms of medium volume / res. volume?

I noticed the 3 gallon roughneck totes at Home de Pot today and thought that would work well with a 2 gallon bucket on top. The PVC wick pipe just fits in there in terms of height. Do you forsee any res. volume problems with this pairing? The 3 gallon roughneck is basically the same size as the sterlite containers I have been using for elevation and runoff collection so the footprint matching would work real well.

 

[delta9nxs]

D9, as far as scalability goes, do you have a ratio in mind in terms of medium volume / res. volume?

I noticed the 3 gallon roughneck totes at Home de Pot today and thought that would work well with a 2 gallon bucket on top. The PVC wick pipe just fits in there in terms of height. Do you forsee any res. volume problems with this pairing? The 3 gallon roughneck is basically the same size as the sterlite containers I have been using for elevation and runoff collection so the footprint matching would work real well.”



no ratio really. You really don't need much water as long as your depth is correct. One of the problems is having enough surface area on the lid of your bottom res container to support the upper grow container. It also needs to be able to support the weight.

But in a liquid feed scheme it never hurts to have a lot of water volume. You get greater solution stability and when something starts going south you have more time to observe and correct it.

I've thought about a pvc grid instead of a bottom container. It would have t's in it facing up to receive each sump/ drain pipe. In a small space with just a few plants this might be more efficient. I can see a latticework of plants sites with a bunch of spiked clones in it. Sog.

Or a big flat container like one of those black cement mixing tubs they sell at lowes or hd. You could take a piece of 3/4” plywood for a lid, wrapped in plastic and holes cut for your plant sites.

That three gal roughneck by rubbermaid is a strong little container. If I were using turface I would not be able to use the ten gal ones i'm using. But mine are strong enough for coco. Your 3/2 gal pairing looks good.

About res depth, i'm now running all plants with a 2.5” air gap. In combination with the top water system I find that's about right. If you're going to run sub-irrigation only 1.5” is good. Keep in mind these aren't hard figures just what works for me with my environmental considerations and plant reactions. And coco. It's good to build in some adjustability for dialing in your exact needs.

d9