passive plant killer

[daRube]

D9,

Thank you for your reply... Yeah, I realized you were talking wet weight.. I was concerned the weight of the tree plus medium would bow the rubbermaid lid. Your original design looked like it had that second cut off bucket for support.

I have two rooms available; a 10x10x8 bedroom that I presently have 1 - 1000w and 4 600w bare bulbs in an x pattern around 4 trees (only bushes really) in diy mpb buckets. I have more 1000w available but am still working out my temperature regulation.

I'm a legal medical grower in a state with 6 plant maximums.. I also grow for another patient so I can have 12 in flower.. The idea of trees works best for my situation. The mpb buckets are built for trees but take far more worry, fertilization/ph management, fuss, chillers, flooding, power...arggh. Great idea but I'm an old timer (yeah I fart dust also) child of the 60's and want to enjoy growing.. also I have a smaller bedroom 7x7x8 with some t-5s that I use for vegging..

I like your weekly addition (perpetual) of trees so that they come into harvest on a staggered time scale.. I have trouble with gripping things so extended trimming is challenging.. I'm an ex-construction type person so diy and low cost appeal to me..

Questions:
In your new design (posts 476-477) for the "modules" what screening are you doing to keep the coco in the bucket.. (do you put the screen at the bucket or at the bottom of the sink tailpiece for media wicking?)
Using the 10 gallon rubbermaid what length is the tailpiece or do you use the full 6 inches?
What diameter are the holes you drilled in the bucket.. 1/4"? Any other hints regarding the modules?

Thanks again..

DR

 

[SnowGro]

D9

Here is a pic of the enclosure I'm building. Because of the location I've chosen, I'm height limited.
The box is 2' deep by 4' high. There are 4 bays with 15" clearance, and the 5th is about 20" wide.



The rightmost compartment is for controller buckets, and cloning/early veg. It will also contain an exhaust fan, pulling air from left to right. The plants will rotate to the left as they advance. The fresh water supply will sit on top of the unit, gravity fed to the controller buckets/top makeup water.

The biggest issue I'm having right now is the vertical optimization of the underfeed system. I was wondering if you had any new insight into:
-Distance from bottom of container to reservoir level, or target wicking height in growing container. Do you look at saturation levels in terms of absolute dimension, or % of total height?
-Reservoir volume per plant.
-Multiple plants / strains on a common reservoir.

Now that you have a little more system time under your belt. Anything else that you've said 'Wish I would have done it this way instead.'

I'm envisioning the grow containers as 5gal buckets with 3 pipe legs about 6" long. 1" to 1 1/2" pipe depending on cost. Grow container will be self standing then. This will sit inside of a 12"x15"x6" ish reservoir maintained at about 4" water depth.

I'm shooting for much smaller harvests per plant than you are getting, 2oz/plant is plenty. The plant's growing envelope will be about 25" high by 15" wide on a trellis. I wonder if I would benefit by going to a shorter grow container to leave a taller growing space, but sacrificing root volume.

Bucket.


1 Unit, with bucket and res.


Still a work in progress, but any input you have would be helpful

 

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by Mistress

“was post about planty in most recent pic...

how much was approx wet wt of the 11s?”

hi, the post was about 2 plants. The 11.39 oz one was from a previous week. The wet one in the photo is the 5 lb one. It's not dry yet. I'll be able to give you a dry figure next week.

“~11/~80=.13,
or 13% dry from 100% wet...
87% evaporation (water, oxygen, etc...)
can this ratio be improved?”

not an applicable ratio as I did not weigh the 11.39 plant wet. I think that everyone reporting weights should probably just use trimmed bud, but weighed wet and dry. This would let the readers determine for themselves the level of dryness based on their interpretation of the ratios. But I still use the old stem snapping trick.

“they really prefer 2k per plant (two sides)... middle of garden seem best, w/ vert bulbs...”

yes, you can see that the lights are right in the centers of plant mass. You don't get the great big center bud anymore, but overall bud count and density go up. Bud average size goes up. You get a more uniform look in the bag. This also keeps the plants square. Reduces stretch. More mass in the sweet spot. Terminal growth on the lower and mid axial branches is exaggerated. Closer internodes. I don't move the lights, I work the plants against them.

Plants on earth are actually side lit most of the time.

“water soluble gr##nhous grade dissolve far better than gh maxi series, which may still be un-dissolved matter in bottom of bucket, if dont mix well... found a 5-1#-2# type fert. not jax, but similar. there is also 4-18-38...”

yeah, I love the jack's. Goes instantly into solution. I'm sure the other greenhouse grade manufacturers are making suitable products. At these prices it hard to justify mixing your own. I'm currently feeding my leftover 6 lbs of maxibloom to my tomatoes.

I think that it's especially important to use a really clean solution in a non-aerated sub-irrigation scheme. I was using flora nova bloom before jack's and i'm still cleaning that brown stain off everything. Once clean though it stays clean with jacks.

“24/7 trickle/drip/etc w/ sub-irry seem work, very well...”

pulse, trickle, drip could all work well to max yield if properly dialed in with the sub system. I've thought about using the blumats but i'm not sure how they would work in conjunction with the sub feed. They would have to have a large range of adjustment.

“w/ lots air flow, they can get ~3-6" away, for 3-7 days, then like to turn slightly...”

with defoliation I can run the buds several inches closer than normal. This has to have an effect.

“they should be larger in same syze container & more fruit...vs. non drill containers. oxygen in root zone seem keep functions proceeding well, over-all.”

still too early to tell for sure but they just look bigger and stronger at any point. It may be that the increased oxygen availability plays a bigger role than the root pruning. It will be interesting to saw one in half.

“so, gradual increase?
first 12, then...”
__
just getting 12 consistently here with my set of limitations would be a BFD for me.

Later, d9

 

[delta9nxs]

gotta go now, but i'll be back!

 

[*mistress*]

pulse, trickle, drip could all work well to max yield if properly dialed in with the sub system. I've thought about using the blumats but i'm not sure how they would work in conjunction with the sub feed. They would have to have a large range of adjustment.

++++ holes in container. water pump. feed lines 24/24. large, open basin to catch+re-use run-off....w/ . plant gets water+nutes 24/24. if too wet, only 12/24. thorough run-off...

 

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by DR

“Thank you for your reply... Yeah, I realized you were talking wet weight.. I was concerned the weight of the tree plus medium would bow the rubbermaid lid. Your original design looked like it had that second cut off bucket for support.”

That original design works very well, it was built for turface, but the rubbermaids seem capable of holding up coco. The rubbermaid lid arrangement nests into the container with the lid edge over both the inside and outside edge of the tub.

“I have two rooms available; a 10x10x8 bedroom that I presently have 1 - 1000w and 4 600w bare bulbs in an x pattern around 4 trees (only bushes really) in diy mpb buckets. I have more 1000w available but am still working out my temperature regulation.”

I have always liked that X light pattern, but my room is 6.5 ft wide and 18.5 ft long so I was stuck spreading mine out in a row and adapting plants to it. You have plenty of power but getting 12 large plants in there is going to be a problem. I have 9 in 120 sq ft and I can barely move around in there. you are talking about 12 in 100 sq ft. Space is your limitation here. You have an 8' ceiling. Your lighting is vertical? And air cooled?

“I'm a legal medical grower in a state with 6 plant maximums.. I also grow for another patient so I can have 12 in flower.. The idea of trees works best for my situation. The mpb buckets are built for trees but take far more worry, fertilization/ph management, fuss, chillers, flooding, power...arggh. Great idea but I'm an old timer (yeah I fart dust also) child of the 60's and want to enjoy growing.. also I have a smaller bedroom 7x7x8 with some t-5s that I use for vegging..
I like your weekly addition (perpetual) of trees so that they come into harvest on a staggered time scale.. I have trouble with gripping things so extended trimming is challenging.. I'm an ex-construction type person so diy and low cost appeal to me..”

This design represents truly reliable, carefree growing. I've tried dwc, rdwc, e&f, nft, bio-buckets, internal reservoir, and hand watered drain to waste and this is by far the most stress free. Set it and forget it. It also grows huge plants within normal time frames. I see no difference in speed of growth compared to the more active types of hydro. I'm turning 60 this year and I have tried to design heavy or intense, long duration labor episodes out of it. With the perpetual one in and one out per week scenario the labor is reduced to short episodes. It takes my wife and I about 1.5 hours to trim one. That is the longest single labor event. Probably less than 15 man hours a week total for the whole show.

“Questions:
In your new design (posts 476-477) for the "modules" what screening are you doing to keep the coco in the bucket.. (do you put the screen at the bucket or at the bottom of the sink tailpiece for media wicking?)
Using the 10 gallon rubbermaid what length is the tailpiece or do you use the full 6 inches?
What diameter are the holes you drilled in the bucket.. 1/4"? Any other hints regarding the modules?

Thanks again..

DR “

Just a piece of fiberglass window screen over the bottom end of the tail piece. I have been clamping it on with wire ties but have found another stock plumbing part at lowes that will hold it on yet be easily removed and reused. It is called a “slip joint washer”, square cut. I don't have the lowes item # in front of me right now but the manufacturers # is 85522k. It's right there with the tail piece and miracle fittings. It just slips over the screen and holds it in place. I take a razor and trim off excess screen so it doesn't hang up when lifting the bucket out of a container to move the plant.

The tail piece does not have to be cut for the 10 gal rubbermaid. It ends up about ½” above the bottom with a big plant in it.

I used a 5/16 bit for the air holes. It works fine with the atami coco. Some fine material comes out initially when wetting but the longer fibers soon form a “screen” over the hole. During operation no water or material comes out of the holes. Some of the holes are drilled right to the bottom floor of the bucket so during initial wetting and treating water pours out. But then the moisture level comes to equilibrium. That is where you want to keep it.

I hope this helps.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by SnowGro

“The biggest issue I'm having right now is the vertical optimization of the underfeed system. I was wondering if you had any new insight into:
-Distance from bottom of container to reservoir level, or target wicking height in growing container. Do you look at saturation levels in terms of absolute dimension, or % of total height?”

if you are only using sub-irrigation a 1.5” air gap is fine. If you are top watering also i'm finding 2.5-3” works good. I would keep all this adjustable for fine tuning.

“-Reservoir volume per plant.”

not really important as long as you have enough depth.

“-Multiple plants / strains on a common reservoir.”

why not?

“Now that you have a little more system time under your belt. Anything else that you've said 'Wish I would have done it this way instead.”

nothing major. I'm looking for black surgical tubing as the yellow allows a little algae growth. I could just wrap it with something.

“I'm envisioning the grow containers as 5gal buckets with 3 pipe legs about 6" long. 1" to 1 1/2" pipe depending on cost. Grow container will be self standing then. This will sit inside of a 12"x15"x6" ish reservoir maintained at about 4" water depth.
I'm shooting for much smaller harvests per plant than you are getting, 2oz/plant is plenty. The plant's growing envelope will be about 25" high by 15" wide on a trellis. I wonder if I would benefit by going to a shorter grow container to leave a taller growing space, but sacrificing root volume.”

i've played around with the three leg idea and found it to be too unstable. Just a bucket full of coco has too high of a center of gravity, so with a plant it would only be worse.

I am not the best guy to talk to about growing in small spaces. I have very limited experience in full size closets.

It would seem that with your space and a 2 oz plant goal a 5 gal bucket is way too much.

I still like the 3 gal rubbermaid tubs. One on top of the other with a single sump/wick. Short, compact, and tough.

I think you are going to be surprised at the yield.

d9

 

[daRube]

D9,

Thank you again for your time.. More questions...

1) what distance are your plants from your light and from each other? Given my room size would it be better for me to change my x pattern lights and run plants around a center row of lights? My lights are bare bulb hung singly down from the ceiling with cage fans underneath each one blowing up toward the ceiling.
2) With your perpetual weekly add/harvest do you have 7 in veg and 9 in flower? I'm thinking with 8 - 10 weeks of flower on average I would only need 8 - 9 in flower at any one time.. Does this sound like what you do?
3) Thank you for the clarification on the new modules.. I'm off to Lowes in the AM and will "git-r-done" this weekend.. I'm thinking of building the modules and starting them in veg while I figure out your "auto-watering" scheme.. Do you have to have a Cyclestat 4p for the top feed and the bottom?

DR

 

[delta9nxs]

Quote by Mistress

“++++ holes in container. water pump. feed lines 24/24. large, open basin to catch+re-use run-off....w/ . plant gets water+nutes 24/24. if too wet, only 12/24. thorough run-off... “

yep, with a wick to drain the pwt. But why not put a timer on it and pulse it?

 

[delta9nxs]

Quotes by DR

“1) what distance are your plants from your light and from each other? Given my room size would it be better for me to change my x pattern lights and run plants around a center row of lights? My lights are bare bulb hung singly down from the ceiling with cage fans underneath each one blowing up toward the ceiling.”

my lights in flower are as little as 6” from the plants. But they are cool tubed. A bare 1k hps at 16" is equal to equatorial sunlight. My 1k in veg is bare. I have a fan blowing straight up past it towards the ceiling and good cooling and circulation in the room so I can run them around 12”. but that is pushing them. I really like that x pattern you have and I think it could work for you as you are 10x10'. Your problem is that the x pattern is intended for 4 really big plants. I feel that if you add more they would have to be proportionately smaller. Like 8-9 medium-large instead of 4 xx-large. You don't know which approach will yield more bud weight until you try it. With the perpetual harvest you can get away with less area as the plants are not the same size. Also, if you used the defoliating technique everyone is playing around with you could pack the plants much closer and interweave them somewhat. Just remember that you also have to be able to move around in there without getting burned.

The other scenario that you mention, where you put all lights in the center of the room, could work too. You could push all plants out against the wall grown one sided. Highly reflective material on the walls. Lights in some kind of stacked vertical arrangement. This might actually give you more room to maneuver.

“2) With your perpetual weekly add/harvest do you have 7 in veg and 9 in flower? I'm thinking with 8 - 10 weeks of flower on average I would only need 8 - 9 in flower at any one time.. Does this sound like what you do?”

those are exactly my numbers.

“3) Thank you for the clarification on the new modules.. I'm off to Lowes in the AM and will "git-r-done" this weekend.. I'm thinking of building the modules and starting them in veg while I figure out your "auto-watering" scheme.. Do you have to have a Cyclestat 4p for the top feed and the bottom?”

I bought the cyclestats because I had no idea what frequency and duration I would use. I knew I would be playing around a lot and they are super easy to tune. But, now that i've done some experimenting and know what I want I could just use timers. Member Cactusjack, who seems to be awol again, found some small timers at home depot that would probably be ok. He listed the hd part# earlier in the thread.

I like 4 oz's every 2 hours in veg during lights on only and 16 oz's 2 times in flower, once at onset of the photoperiod and once 8 hours into it. This is with 5 gal buckets.

You mentioned the cyclestat for the bottom and it is not involved in that system. The sub-irrigation runs automatically 24/7 propelled by gravity.

d9

just remembered to tell everyone that you will need to lightproof the rubbermaids. I just hang a piece of panda film over them.

 

[*mistress*]

Quote by Mistress

“++++ holes in container. water pump. feed lines 24/24. large, open basin to catch+re-use run-off....w/ . plant gets water+nutes 24/24. if too wet, only 12/24. thorough run-off... “

yep, with a wick to drain the pwt. But why not put a timer on it and pulse it?

no wick...that was previous method. containers sit directly onto basin of 200gal+ trough/small pond.

when ran kbs/kfb, flow rate was 24/24 in lava rox...
then ran aero bucket, 24/24....

conclusion:
24/24 works very well. no timers, even though it would be very easy to affix pumps to light timers. find no advantage (@ least for imaginary lady gardener) to pulsing or running on/off, to running 24/24... especially w/ porous media that drain well... media that drains well seem prefer 24/24... imaginary runs slightly alter media, occasionally. phasing out coco, replacing w/ perlyt or turphas. though plantys root ball housed in ~25% coco, holding root-ball, before transplant in ~10gal bigger container full of perlyt.

also, when pumps turn on/off often, more chance for siphon effect, blockages, or other flow issues. constant flow pressureseem work best for mechanical watering...

previous, just h@nd-water 1/5 volume water every 48hrs... 1x/day... seems as though same amount of water is used by plant, either way - though they seem happier w/ constant feed.

if pour ~5 gal solution in trough, four pl@nties around 1k, pump feed that solution for 24-36hrs until get low in basin. add solution. end.

what would be specif advantages of pulse feed over 24/24 @ constant moderate rate?

 

[SnowGro]

D9

Thanks for the reply. That's great information.
I'm interested in the rubbermaid idea. They will still fit just fine in the area I have designed.
The air gap info is very helpful as well.

I'm wondering how the constant water / pulse discussion will pan out.

My 1st grow was in 100% perlite. I watered for 15 mins every 3 hours or so (tuned down during grow). One huge mistake I made was top watering with spray / hard stream. This was a bad idea. Either broke down perlite, or brought fines to top. Increased drain time. Drip, drip drip!

How did you plant in the tote? Plant and wick/sump in center, or plant one 1/3, and sump other 1/3? 1st grow was in 17ish gal rubbermaid. 2 plants, 1 at either side and drain in middle.

The concern I had about multiple plants on 1 subfeed was with imbalance issues. No evidence or issues so far, so I'll quit worrying =).

Thanks again.
Sno

 

[delta9nxs]

hi, Mistress

With a single point continuous flow the water hits and penetrates the top of the medium at one point only, there is little lateral dispersion. There will be a small area around impact that is like a “splash zone”.

My original thoughts on this were that the column would disperse downward and outward from there, like an inverted funnel. But that is not what happens.

Because of waters strong cohesion and the continuous addition of water weight into the top of the moving column, the water tends to reform subsurface into a solid column again, resisting lateral dispersion. This can cause channeling through the medium. Too much water in some areas and not enough in others.

Contrast this to a regulated continuous drip, where the intermittent application allows relief of the downward momentum caused by a moving continuous stream. This in turn gives the medium more time to act as a damper, slowing movement, enhancing dispersal. This achieves a superior wetted profile. More root, water, nutrient, and air interface per volume of container.

Then we come to pulsed irrigation. Not only are the benefits of drip realized, but you also get the “plunger” effect. This sudden burst of water creates a wavelike effect that travels through the medium with a higher mass per application than drip, pushing and pulling more oxygen via displacement as it falls. This is why I did not drill out the upper half of my buckets. Gases cannot escape from the sidewalls of the upper half. As the pulse hits and falls old air is pushed out through the holes in the bottom and fresh air is drawn in through both the top of the medium and the sidewall holes.

All three of these techniques are improved by multi-point application.

All can be regulated for the same flow volume over time.

All have valid applications depending on medium and container shape. For example, in the “perlite culture” technique developed by the university of edinburgh for tomatoes, the containers are 6-8” diameter bags 3-5 ft long laid at an incline in concrete troughs with a trickle line inserted in the top and slits cut in the bottom. Holes are cut for the plant plugs. The liquid basically just runs nft style down the bottom of the bag and is dispersed by capillary action. The solution is captured and recirculated. 3-5 plants per bag. This is an example of single point continuous flow that works very well.

Once you have a pump for continuous flow it is just a little bit more complicated to go to controlled drip. Once you go to controlled drip you might as well put a timer on it and pulse.

But really this is highly subjective to your medium choice, container choice, and style of growing. I don't aerate the solution and am trying to maximize o2 in the root zone in other ways.

d9

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, SnowGro!

i have never grown in the 3 gal tub. i just think a pair of them would be a good combination for tight spaces.

 

[delta9nxs]

Intermittent Water Application through Surface and Subsurface Drip Irrigation
Published by the American Society of Agricultural and Biological Engineers, St. Joseph, Michigan www.asabe.org
Citation:**Paper number *052216,**2005 ASAE Annual Meeting .*@2005
Authors:***Panagiotis Vyrlas, Maria Sakellariou-Makrantonaki
Keywords:***Drip irrigation, subsurface drip, intermittent irrigation, pulsed irrigation, sugar beet
Intermittent water application allows reducing mean irrigation rate to a level which coincides with soil's hydraulic conductivity and minimizes percolation below the main root zone. Field experiment was conducted to confirm the efficiency of this approach, in a clay loam soil. The treatments consisted of two irrigation systems (surface and subsurface drip), and two methods of water application (continuous and intermittent).
Drip piping with 0.8-m emitter spacing was placed on the soil surface in the middle of alternative plant rows. Laterals with the same characteristics were buried at 0.45 m in the subsurface plots.
The moisture distribution in the soil one day after irrigation, measured by time domain reflectometry instrumentation, indicated that intermittent application in both surface and subsurface plots produced wider wetted patterns.
Intermittent or pulsed drip irrigation application has proven its potential to improve sugar beet yield. The results demonstrate that plots irrigated by intermittent application exceeded the continuous irrigated ones in terms of root yield and sugar content.
*

 

[SnowGro]

Good info on the water column effect.
Just to clear the waters a bit, mistress, can you define flow volume you are talking about in constant water? ounces per minute or gallons per minute (per site)
I def agree that pump cycles (on/off) are problematic. Especially with perlite. One small piece will lock up a pump. That stuff gets everywhere.
The risk involved would depend on the system's overall fault tolerance.
Another approach is constant running pump, with solenoids controlling water flow.

 

[SnowGro]

mistress,
you mentioned phasing out coco for perlite/turface.
Do you have any specifics on current experiments?
I like perlite, the ph buffering issues are worrysome.
1st run had ph swings. I attribute this mostly to operator ignorance.

 

[delta9nxs]

mistress and snowgro, are you guys both talking about sub-irrigated systems? there is no way to run either a continuous flow or a continuous drip on a sub-irrigated system and expect it to act like anything other than a drain. continuous flow is totally impossible and drip would have to be timed for intervals for the sub system to work. if you decide to put a timer on the continuous flow system you have just turned it into a pulse system.

 

[extreegrowerrr]

very nice!

 

[SnowGro]

I am planning a sub system.
I had made a comment or two on the overall conversation. Sorry if I caused any confusion =).
Not sure what I'm going to do topwise yet.

- 100% fresh makeup thru soaker tube.
- <100% fresh makeup " " "
- no top feed other than flush

Flow pattern
R.O. pressure out ->
32 gal fresh res (up high, gravity feed manifold)->
Makeup buckets (adjust nutes etc here manifold out to subfeed)->
Grow station (tubing to manifolds)

I've got room for 3 5gal controller buckets in the rightmost compartment, so that leaves me 3 solution options. I also have a pump to play with. Could toss in any bucket.