Organics and Ph.

[buggsuperstar]

I could care less how people post or what they say on these forums, it doesn't affect me. But if you reread Clackamas Coot's last 5 posts there were some pretty heavy sarcasm toward anyone "stupid" enough to use or buy a PH probe. Again, I don't care what he wants to post I was just simply saying that I think TH might not return to the thread and answer my question because of it...tranquilo

 

[Mr Celsius]

Only if the person buying the soil is a complete doofus.

A yard would give you 17.39% more than you need for one plant. I wanted to be exact with the percentages what with you being a 'college boy' and all. Usually I would just have typed in something like "around 17%" but there you go.

Prices for potting soil, in bulk, delivered is $150.00 - $185.00 per yard assuming that you're buying less than 50 yards - then again, who knows what goes into a special soil costing 'tousands & thousands of dollars' eh? It's probably like 'top secret' or maybe even 'top secret crypto' or sumpin'

For 'thousands and thousands of dollars' I could use Alaska Humus (even the Denali Gold Humus brand) and have it brought in via air freight and have more than enough money to do Hawaii for a couple of weeks with a month stopover in Ensenada. Each way.

Great grow stories though! A soil mix costing 'thousands and thousands of dollars' - true, it must be a very, very special soil indeed! Probably better than the very soil that God used at the Garden of Eden. The bestest soil ever in the history of the human race! It's like the Garden of Weedin' and stuff!

This soil could possibly end worldwide hunger, AIDS, SIDS, midlife crises, yellow waxy build-up, distended rectum, inverted nipples, toe jam, acne, jock itch, post-nasal drip, dandruff, sickle-cell anemia, lupus, doofus, croup, gout and halitosis. It's probably like "Really Super-Duper Soil"

Again - great grow story.

Just a reminder: The difference between a 'fairy tale' and a 'grow story' is that the fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time....." and a grow story like this one would have to begin with "This is no sh*t...."

Thanks for sharing! And good to see that you're in college! Boola Boola! Hope your team makes it to state this year!

Wee!

CC

Having a good day Suby? I would refute your claims, but I don't particularly like your attitude at the moment.

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Great thread.....

Tom Hill,
you are obviously speaking from experience and I'd definitely agree with you. You'll never see good at night until you take your shades off. Wandering around in the dark is fun and all, but broken toes and smashed faces don't feel so good in the morning.

I'd also agree that PH is not nearly as important in organics. But everything changes when you try to put nature in a 2 gal nursery pot. Come play with my 8.2 PH water, i don't care how much you THINK PH doesn't matter, you can tell it all day to the soil that it's OK....

Ph doesn't matter in organics within a range of water Ph. Maybe 6.5-7.5... Otherwise, your just swimming against a tsunami.....i don't give a Fuck if your Greq Louganis...... your fucking drowning!!

 

[B.C.]

Fucked up thread!

Fucked up thread!

How can everyone be so wrong when everyone is so right? LOL Go with what ya know. Take care...BC

 

[Dignan]

But if you reread Clackamas Coot's last 5 posts there were some pretty heavy sarcasm toward anyone "stupid" enough to use or buy a PH probe. Again, I don't care what he wants to post I was just simply saying that I think TH might not return to the thread and answer my question because of it...tranquilo

You are right about that. I've already learned to tune Brother Clackamas out when he gets all grumpy and starts with the sarcasm, so I'd forgotten about that post.

But keep in mind that Tom Hill came back with some fairly inflammatory words in his posts. He knew what he was getting into and I'm sure if he had something more to say, he'd not hesitate to jump back in here and say it. Tom ain't afraid of anybody.

This debate keeps getting rehashed on these forums, but I have to say... every single time it does, I learn something new. And that's why I'm here. Speaking of... this is enough General Hospital drama for me... let's get back to talking about growing.

Dig

 

[Suby]

(puts arm around Suby's shoulder and offers a Life Saver) Feel better, Suby? lol

Yes I vented and now I'm good.
Sorry 'bout that

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Come here ya big lug and I'll give you a hug too!~

 

[RandyCalifornia]

buggsuperstar, I think TomHill uses oyster shells.
I use Dolomite with NO problems.

 

[Vetus Fossor]

It's all good, Suby. You do a pretty good job.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Good thread here.

As for my .02, I use a pH meter religiously. A good meter.

One reason... I want to know what conditions I'm affecting at root level. Another reason... I want to make sure the pH of my solution is at or very close to 6.0 (+/- .3).

Dolomite lime doesn't bring your pH up to 7.0, it moves the pH in the 7.0 direction. There's a difference. If you add a 3.5 pH solution to your dolomite lime-ammended potting mix, the lime will save you from total disaster, perhaps, but it won't bring you up to the proper level in the 6.0 range. Conversely, if you add a solution of 9.0 pH, the dolomite lime may help get the pH down toward 7, but it won't get there. Dolomite lime gets the pH moving toward 7.0, it's not there to GET your pH to 7 every time, no matter what you do. That would be too easy. :smile:

I have no problem with occasionally using a solution of 5.5 in my Dolomite lime-ammended soil, because the lime will move toward 7.0, leaving me somewhere around 6.0. However, in my coco pots, I have to adjust the pH of my solution to the final range around 6.0, because there's no lime in the coco to help the low pH drift upward.

If you're using Earth Juice, your solution is probably in the 3.5-4.5 range... if you follow the directions on the bottle. This isn't good. Plants may survive these conditions, but the smoke quality suffers greatly. A screwed up pH won't allow the full range of metobolic processes to take place, and therefore your plants can't use up all the nutrient they uptake... which equals harsh smoke.

A friend recently showed me his garden. They were mostly clones I was growing too. Mine were yielding MUCH better and looked MUCH better too. he was using Pure Blend Pro without testing and adjusting pH. His smoke was harsh, and the yields were wanting. I told him how to test and adjust. The next crop looked and smoked as good as mine.

You can ignore pH, but it's not the best idea if you're serious about getting the best results for your time and effort, every time. If you don't test, and things work out great every time, this is pure luck of the draw. This means your water's pH is at just the right level to take your nutrients. If your nutrients happen lower the pH of your water exactly 1.0 points, and your water is at a pH of 7.0, you end up with a 6.0 solution. This is a lucky senario. However, using organic liquid ferts, like Earth Juice, will lower your 7.0 water down to about 4-4.5 pH. Plants can survive at this acidity, but they won't be connoisseur quality, and won't be all they can be.

Proper pH is essential. If you're lucky enough to use nutes that bring your water into the 5.7-6.3 range every time you mix, then good for you, but I'd still check to be sure nothing has swayed in between feedings.

Good thread, let's keep it informative and civil enough to continue.

cc

BCSG Skunk1 X NL#5 in Pro-Mix, fed a 5.7-6.3 range solution, usually around 5.9.

 

[B.C.]

Come here ya big lug and I'll give you a hug too!~

Watch it Suby!.....it's a trick! lol BC

 

[Suby]

I love all you crazy, grumpy,and wonderfully hard headed organic growers.
That's why i turned down the chance to mod indoor soil and hydro organic

CC take on ph reminds me of the importance of method in MY garden anyway.

I don't use EJ, way too acidic and expensive.
I don't use PBPro, too acidic and not organic really, the only bottled fert I use is LK and liquid seaweed, in my soil projects anyway.
I don't use coco in my mixes agressivley anymore, it's a neutral substrate with a very low humus count compared to peat and doesn't recyle worth shit so I'm not on that band wagon just yet.
I've done PBPro in coco and PH was essential to success, same as in hydro.
I have near perfect water for organic soil, ph 6.5 with 100-130 ppms every time.
I can't stress how crucial water quality is to proper growing, more than nutes, strain, and even soil mix, know thy water quality peeps.
I feed less but more often and use a very rich soil, ALOT of bottled organic growers using plain peat and perlite are going to fall flat on their faces not ph adjusting bottled organics, I don't argue this.
I also use compost teas 3-4 times during growth and flowering phases, I hit them hard with P or N guano once during each phase, I add the guano to an activated compost tea to balance the feeding/microbes.
I use a rich and well composted soil mix, I see alot of overly or underly rich soil recipes, it also needs to be NPK and micro balanced.

See even the mods don't agree but more important we agree that method plays on your success here.

If this thread stays on it's present course I will sticky it and make this the end all ph and organics thread (after deleting my by bitch like whining lol).

Suby

 

[BurnOne]

Crazy Composer-
You didn't tell us what soil mixes you two guys were using.
You're absolutely correct about the pH adjusting ability of dolomite.
But, humus is a big factor too. Humic acids will "buffer" the nute solutions so the plants can take them up through their roots. Even at pH readings outside the optimum range. It prevents "lockout" as hydro growers may say.
Pure Blend Pro does make for harsh smoke if used until harvest. I would use plain water the last few waterings when I used PBP for that reason.
As a matter of fact, I'm going to remove PBP from the "beginners" thread.
I get around 2 ozs. per square foot easy.
Burn1

 

[rckymtnthuglife]

Water quality is of the utmost importance, whether you pH teas or not. If I use LC's mix and my tapwater (even when bubbled 24hrs) it will kill small seedlings...it has a starting pH of 7.8 and 262 parts per million. So I just use r/o, rain or snow. I've been using tap for my flowering teas and haven't seen a problem though.

If I used my tapwater and adjusted it with pH Down (phoshporic acid) this will lead to big trouble. What happens is the P in the phosphoric acid is in a form that is unavailable to plants. This P likes to bind with Ca, making whatever Ca it attaches to unavailable to the plant as well. Mg and Ca need to be in balance in the soil, if too much Ca is unavailable the first symptoms may very well look like Mg def. So ya add some epsom next watering...now you've really thrown off the Ca/Mg balance making things even worse...leaving a new grower dumbfounded by his inablility to solve a "simple" mag def. I killed alot of plants this way...I guess this is part of the reason I get so hardheaded about the issue. Sorry B1, I don't buy into being able to add anything from 4-9pH to your soil, occasionally is fine...but if your base water is like mine at 7.8 and that's all you give'em they die on me. If I use a base water like r/o or rain with a good starting pH of 6.5, and feed with teas with an unknown pH, everything seems to be fine.
Rcky

 

[Crazy Composer]

I employ the soiless organic method on most crops. This is the closest forum for this style. I really wish there were a soiless organic forum, because it has been one of the best methods for me over the years. I use Pro-Mix HP, raw, and feed with teas, and sometimes a bottled organic nute like PBP or BioBloom. I avoid using rich organic mixes because I feel I have less control over the feeding that way. With soiless organic growing, you can flush out almost everything you put in, because it's NOT built into the soil in the first place. You also run into much fewer mysterious pH spike issues when you can control exactly how they eat.

I get about 4-6 ounces per 3 gallon plant, all of it superb smoke. About 1.5-2 lbs per 1000 watt light. I get the same yield growing soiless organic as I do soiless GH. And for the record, GH DOES grow buds that are very close to the quality of organic buds... IF you know what you're doing with the nutes. In the end, GH is the same stuff a plant eats when being fed organically. The only difference is that with GH you don't have to wait for the nutrients to be released from organic matter, and you're not at the mercy of variables. The stuff the plants eat is the same. I used to think you couldn't get the truly great tasting herb from GH, I get organic quality herb from GH nowadays, so I was wrong about that. The addition of Maple Syrup in mid-late flowering helps increase terpine production and helps the ripening process.

On the issue of buffering pH... let me ask you all this question: Would you rather see your soil stay at 5.5-6.5 pH? Or would you rather have a buffer fight a low pH to bring it into a healthier range? The less fighting, struggling you cause in the soil, the better the plant will do. Buffers CAN save your ass, but it's better to have things right without needing buffers... less friction at root level.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Has anyone yet linked to something even remotely based on science that water PH has a direct-causal relationship with a soil's PH?

This should be a slam-dunk for the PH purists. Hopefully the answer will be along any hour now.

CC

 

[BurnOne]

Crazy-
Not trying tp piss you off. But if I have to do all that work, I'd just as soon go hydro.
I do organics for one reason... It's easy.
Burn1

 

[Suby]

What we need is hard data and some serious clone based side by side grows.

It's pretty easy really, you brew and mix all the same things for all you plants and then split that batch in 2 and ph adjust for half your crop.
Things to measure for a pH analysis would be ph and ppm of starting water, ph of solution after mixing in nutes or teas, and as a reference target ph for the adjusted solution.
The problem lies in what nutes and soil mixes the tester uses and by extension the quality of their soil ammendments.

S

 

[Dignan]

Has anyone yet linked to something even remotely based on science that water PH has a direct-causal relationship with a soil's PH?

This should be a slam-dunk for the PH purists. Hopefully the answer will be along any hour now.

CC

Dear Grumpy Old Coot,




This is splitting hairs, but I've always wondered how soil can have a pH. The way my brain processes it, what a person is measuring is always the pH of water... so the "pH of soil" is really the pH of the water/moisture in the soil, right?

So it would seem that soil doesn't "have a pH" any more than lime "has a pH" or coffee grounds "have a pH." Really what we're talking about with any given substance--whether it be soil, lime, coffee grounds or manure-- is, how does that substance affect the pH of the moisture within and around it?

That could be all bullshit, but I would need someone to explain to me why it is, because it makes sense to me. What it says to me is that only water can have a pH... everything else is a pH-changing or pH-buffering element. Only water has a pH... everything else is affecting the pH of the water in some way.

Dig

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Let's see if this will work.

What if I send an email to one of the soil scientists over at UO (Go Ducks!) and ask this very question(s)? Would that be helpful? Would another expert source be more appropriate?

I'm open to any source that someone wants to recommend - other than more anecdotal opinions from cannabis growers or worse - their blogs and YouTube entertainment videos.

Fair enough?