Z
zoolander
I had something to say but why bother, Rcky will just neg rep me
Last edited:
-
ICMag with help from Landrace Warden and The Vault is running a NEW contest in November! You can check it here. Prizes are seeds & forum premium access. Come join in!
Organics and Ph.
- Thread starter swampdank
- Start date
swampdank said:
- I am not a gifted gardener. Wasn't born with a green thumb, don't have much of one now.
- I don't think I've ever grown with the same soil mix twice.
- I don't bother testing the pH of the water or compost teas that my plants get and my results are very good.
- I do test my tap water a few times a year (with Alkalive strips because my experience with digital meters has been poor), to make sure it's still where I originally tested it.
There is no secret, no special mojo, no pact made with the plant gods. It really is that easy.
One thing's for sure... you can't be 100% sure what the truth is in YOUR situation until you experiment and find out for yourself. Then you'll be SURE you don't need to test pH or you'll be SURE that you do. LOL You'll formulate your own opinion and then, if you're like most of us, you'll start generalizing and giving out YOUR experience as universal advice to others.
But the person taking your advice won't know for sure until they experiment for themselves... and so on, ad finitum.
Most of us don't have a whole lot to lose by experimenting, anyway. Don't be afraid to muck around with ideas that you may not often hear parroted by stoners on cannabis forums.
Though some would have you believe that their way is the best way... there are a million ways to skin this cat, you can be sure of it.
Dig
Dignan said:
i hear ya Dig. you pretty much hit the nail on the head there. while expirimenting to find the way that works for me, i am seeking other things to try. this is, after all, a hobby of mine. when one has a hobby(usually) he want all of the gadgets to tinker with. i think this is my main reason for takng an interest in this little ph meter.
its fun to see everybodies different angles on the subject as well.
PH pen
PH pen
Yeah, I played with one fera while also. I had ta see what the ph of -everything- was.lol I was also dabbling with a couple different ways of growing hydro on the side. But nowa days I'd rather jus put em all on auto-pilot in soil, and ya know, all these power outages we get in this lil one horse town I live in don't agravate me near as much now. Plus I don't have to check my ph. Wee! lol Take care...BC
PH pen
Yeah, I played with one fera while also. I had ta see what the ph of -everything- was.lol I was also dabbling with a couple different ways of growing hydro on the side. But nowa days I'd rather jus put em all on auto-pilot in soil, and ya know, all these power outages we get in this lil one horse town I live in don't agravate me near as much now. Plus I don't have to check my ph. Wee! lol Take care...BC
B.C. said:
LOL! what is this kool aid registering at? how about my beer? hehe. i see the fun in it. well, i think im also curious about the ph monitoring in organics as i have to buy one regardless because i plan to do a coco grow anyway. so i am buying one. i guess i might not NEED it for my organic garden but i will have one for my coco and my plant science courses.
rckymtnthuglife
Member
Swampdank (the guy that started this thread) neg repped me in your defense in a different thread and then told me he started this one initially in my defense...but I'm an asshole and should stop wasting his time. Irony?zoolander said:
I could give two shits about rep...this is a great thread though, so this will be the last response you get out of me...so post away!
BC- Lockouts can be a real bitch no matter how they are caused. I don't know how many plants I killed adjusting my pH with phosphoric acid...so I thought I should throw it out there. Glad ya liked it.
Suby- No lime at all for seedlings eh? I'll have to give that a try...nah, I'll have to add a little...did you mean Pro-mix must have...Peat-moss won't have any at all...maybe 1/2 tbs for the little ones. Pedro and I were discussing why you guys dropped it to 1tbs from 2tbs per gal...been waiting to see if you or B1 were going to make a sidenote of it in the Stickys. I've been doing it for awhile now...because I cut everything in 1/2 just about when it comes to adding ammendments or nutes. Curious as to why you went to 1tbs of lime?
Rcky
Last edited:
Buggbuggsuperstar said:
Thank you for posting the Clemson link. In goes along with the studies conducted at SUNY which concurs with your post along with this:
So according to both links, soil PH has a number of contributing factors.
Back to municipal water sources. It is necessary for water treatment plants to achieve a specific PH range in order to remove microbes for pubic health reasons. A phone call to one's local water company could answer a lot of questions about PH, mineral content, salt levels, etc. If you're on a well like many in rural areas then obviously a water test is in order.
Back to container growing using organic methods. If one is using the 'LC Mix' that Suby, Burn1, et al. have posted on several threads, then about the only 2 factors which would definitely affect the 'soil PH' would be if the ProMix or Sunshine Mix contains peat as it is acidic (am I correct on that?)
The other factor would be the quality of the compost used. If you accept the link from SUNY, then organic matter which has not been fully composted could be another 'soil PH' issue.
The rest of the ingredients that are used are inert - again correct me if I'm wrong.
So if you use the LC Mix formula then you could replace the peat with coir (that is PH neutral, correct?) and use EWC unless you know your compost source for sure. Testing the compost PH might be a good idea as well.
Suby, Burn1, et al. have provided the best means to neutralize the PH of this mix by suggesting the addition of dolomite lime. Can't argue with that.
Back to both the Clemson and SUNY links, both agree (as well as a plethora of other studies) that soil PH is directly affected by minerals. Soil is fractured rock and humus. Depending on how the rock was formed millions and millions of years ago will determine the PH of that rock.
So my recommendation would be to add a rock dust - soft rock phosphate, Azomite, glacial rock dust, whatever. That will help balance the soil PH whether it's outdoors or in a container.
Assuming that acid rain does, in fact, affect a soil's PH, then that might explain the wide range of dolomite lime pellets - some of which are slower release than other products.
In college I worked part-time at Beckman Industries in Fullerton, California. Dr. Arnold Beckman invented the very first electronic PH meter that he called the 'acid meter' back in the mid-1930's. Prior to that the only way to test the PH of anything was with litmus paper which can be pretty inaccurate. One of Dr. Beckman's first customer was Sunkist Citrus who needed an accurate method of measuring PH in fruit (acid to brix ratio) and was his first customer.
Dr. Beckman was the first one to develop a device which could accurately determine the PH of a soil sample. A huge scientific leap.
By the end of his life he and his wife had donated over $500 million dollars to charities around the world.
HTH
CC
SwampDankswampdank said:
I'm somewhat at a loss about why you would reject, out of hand, the analysis from your local water company. General water management as well as waste-water management is a pretty reliable science overall, i.e. given the water quality in 1st world countries vs. elsewhere. Most of those problems are related to bacteria, fungai and other microbe levels.
Back to your garden, the best way to insure that you have the best line of defense with your soil would be the quality of the ingredients that you use. Using the very best EWC and/or compost is the most important factor. Get that one right and the rest is basically just a tweak here and there.
The same goes for compost teas. Start with the very best compost that you can find, EWC or regular compost. If it's been finished correctly you will have high levels of bacteria, fungai, et al. If you want to increase the fungus colonies, there are specific ingredients that are often recommended like kelp meal, hyrdolized-fish emulsion, pure humic acid, etc. On a compost tea email list that I signed-up for, the question often comes about the best way to achieve a fungus-dominant tea and from the experts on the list (like Dr. Elaine Ingham, et al.) comes the same message over and over - unless your soil has specific deficiencies with specific microbe colonies, then the best avenue is to brew your teas as usual and let nature take its course.
Having said that it is also true that container growing does not come up much for discussion on this and other organic growing boards.
HTH
CC
Clackamas Coot said:
i should have added in my post, in my area, the paper mills have been dumping waste into out rivers and streams for 75 years. the utilities company in my county has had numerous class action lawsuits filed due to false water qulaity reports. fecal coliform levels have exceded the reports consistantly. it is such a problem here because the navy does it as well. nobody is going to tkae on the military or the rich paper companies. we dont drink the water here, and in some areas, wont bathe in it either. the utilities company has also been under scrutiny about radioactive elements as well.
this is why i will easily toss out a government issued report on water quality. the public is lied to by our local government and it has been proven by the university and nothing has been done about it.
please excuse my spelling, i pulled an all nighter with the baby.
Coliform? Well wait... aren't we organic gardeners supposed to buy into the idea that any water that has chlorine added will eradicate any microbial life it comes into contact with? 
Heck, some of the stuff you read would have you believe that a drop of water that was chlorinated at the source would be like a microbial nuclear bomb. Now I'm all confused.
Sarcasm on,
Dig
Heck, some of the stuff you read would have you believe that a drop of water that was chlorinated at the source would be like a microbial nuclear bomb. Now I'm all confused. Sarcasm on,
Dig
my point is... how can i rely on their report when they have been discredited so many times?
congratulations, you were the first to point out coliform in my post. all while dodging my point that i cannot trust the reprots from my utiliies company.
i am fully aware that the fecal coliform levels in my compost tea are probably through the roof.
my point is, the results are always questioned here and testing has been done from private firms that not only agree that the utilities company has lied, but also that they continue to put god knows what into our aquifers. we have two major paper comanies here and both of them have been here for a very long time. they have not changed their practices yet and the water quality has suffered. so, testing it myself would help out.
congratulations, you were the first to point out coliform in my post. all while dodging my point that i cannot trust the reprots from my utiliies company.
i am fully aware that the fecal coliform levels in my compost tea are probably through the roof.
my point is, the results are always questioned here and testing has been done from private firms that not only agree that the utilities company has lied, but also that they continue to put god knows what into our aquifers. we have two major paper comanies here and both of them have been here for a very long time. they have not changed their practices yet and the water quality has suffered. so, testing it myself would help out.
swampdank said:
swampdank- When have I ever attacked you or anyone else? Come on, now... I wasn't taking a shot at you at all. I was in a feisty mood and saw an opportunity to poke fun at the people who always go on about how you cannot use chlorinated or chloraminated water in organic gardening, that it's so deadly to microbes that it will nuke everything within a 100-yard radius.
It wasn't a shot at you and while apologize for derailing the thread momentarily to take my potshot at the chlorine folks, I absolutely agree with you that you shouldn't always (or even often) trust government agencies.
Back to the subject... if you decide that OCD monitoring of pH levels isn't your thing and you just want to establish a baseline and then test periodically to be sure your water source is still within the original range... then don't waste your money on a $100 digital meter... just buy a $8.00 pack of Alkalive test strips and call it good (unless you love owning cool gadgets, then knock yourself out).
Dig
i know your character Dig. i know that you werent attacking me. not you.
i just get feisty myself sometimes. not to mention im a bit grumpy with no sleep lately.
its hard not to get defensive when so much sh*t is getting slung in this thread. very interesting nonetheless.
i agree though. i have used chlorinated water in my grows before and saw no immediate damage. this was before my icmag days and i was full of alot of misinformation. i try not to use it anymore. unless i absolutely must because my plants are dehydrated. i use rain water now ( i kow about acid rain) but we cannot be perfect. the paper comanies contribute heavily to this pollution as well. but, living by the coast alot of our precipitation come right off of the gulf and is pretty clean. its easy to tell if the storm came from the gulf or not by the way the rain smells. the gulf rain smells kinda fishy. i try to use this rain.
i think i will grab few of those test strips for the toolbox. tehy seem like they would work well for occasional monitoring of the water.
oh, now reading back, i see that you were not taking a personal shot at me, but rather taking the opportunity to insert some info. i apologize about my tone, its the fatigue talking.
have a good one.
i just get feisty myself sometimes. not to mention im a bit grumpy with no sleep lately.
its hard not to get defensive when so much sh*t is getting slung in this thread. very interesting nonetheless.
i agree though. i have used chlorinated water in my grows before and saw no immediate damage. this was before my icmag days and i was full of alot of misinformation. i try not to use it anymore. unless i absolutely must because my plants are dehydrated. i use rain water now ( i kow about acid rain) but we cannot be perfect. the paper comanies contribute heavily to this pollution as well. but, living by the coast alot of our precipitation come right off of the gulf and is pretty clean. its easy to tell if the storm came from the gulf or not by the way the rain smells. the gulf rain smells kinda fishy. i try to use this rain.
i think i will grab few of those test strips for the toolbox. tehy seem like they would work well for occasional monitoring of the water.
oh, now reading back, i see that you were not taking a personal shot at me, but rather taking the opportunity to insert some info. i apologize about my tone, its the fatigue talking.
have a good one.
A baby eh? I know how that rolls, I have a 16 month old sprout of my own and yes fatigue is par for the course.
Wait until teething starts
Me and Diggums are kind of sceptical as to how far the chlorine in the water will go towards killing off the "herd", you are 100% correct to distrust anything the goverment or any of their agencies have to print, post, write, or say about your water quality.
I have a total distrust of all these "services", I did a stage at a pulp and papewr mill, the amount of microbiology done under that roof is astounding to make sure that most of the nasties are consumed/broken done biologically before it is dumped. They try to minimize damage but I'm looking forward to hemp paper in my mornning cartoons
Those ph stick are the bomb, cheap and 100% effective without calibration, a sure bet if there ever was one.
Swamps I downed the dolomite to 1TBS per gallon because my water has a little hardness to it, those using RO water should stay with 2TBS, seedlings grow so fast and requires very little calcium, what it does need they'll get from the worm castings which I throw a handfull per cup in.
I notice that EWC or compost is often skipped by many growers, they are essential and no amount of NPK will bring your soil together like these 2 items.
Keep the love and info rolling peeps and SD don't sweat the spelling, I am by far the worst speller/typer on this whole site and somehow peeps still take me seriously...I hope.
Suby
Wait until teething starts
Me and Diggums are kind of sceptical as to how far the chlorine in the water will go towards killing off the "herd", you are 100% correct to distrust anything the goverment or any of their agencies have to print, post, write, or say about your water quality.
I have a total distrust of all these "services", I did a stage at a pulp and papewr mill, the amount of microbiology done under that roof is astounding to make sure that most of the nasties are consumed/broken done biologically before it is dumped. They try to minimize damage but I'm looking forward to hemp paper in my mornning cartoons
Those ph stick are the bomb, cheap and 100% effective without calibration, a sure bet if there ever was one.
Swamps I downed the dolomite to 1TBS per gallon because my water has a little hardness to it, those using RO water should stay with 2TBS, seedlings grow so fast and requires very little calcium, what it does need they'll get from the worm castings which I throw a handfull per cup in.
I notice that EWC or compost is often skipped by many growers, they are essential and no amount of NPK will bring your soil together like these 2 items.
Keep the love and info rolling peeps and SD don't sweat the spelling, I am by far the worst speller/typer on this whole site and somehow peeps still take me seriously...I hope.
Suby
Last edited:
swampdank said:
They work just as well as a digital... even more reliable, if you ask me. No batteries, no calibration, no human error to deal with. And way faster and easier.
The reason I thought they would be the best bet for a person only measuring pH occasionally is... why spend $100 for something you're going to use 12 times over 5 years? Better to spend $8.00.
swampdank said:oh, now reading back, i see that you were not taking a personal shot at me, but rather taking the opportunity to insert some info. i apologize about my tone, its the fatigue talking.
Understand bro... our second one is about to PoP! out here in another 6 weeks. I'm right behind ya... back to no sleep and changing diapers.
Dig
Vetus Fossor
Member
Well, it seems it's not just the soil that's fertile around here.
