Organics and Ph.

[Mr Celsius]

Okay, let's settle this issue once and for all.
Do this for yourself. Grow two crops side by side. Use clones of the same plant. Use one of LC's mixes EXACTLY like the recipe but use the same mix for both grows. Check and adjust the pH of your nute solutions and/or soil mix in one grow and don't check and adjust pH in the other.
Theories are fine but application is fact.
Burn1

Uhm ya, we know that LC's recipe works. Not everyone is going to be able to use that mix... so its not the end all solution.

I mean the LC recipe isn't the end all to organics. Look at Tom's situation, with each plant needing 115 gallons of medium... to do it to LC's recommendations would cost thousands and thousands of dollars.

We know your mix works BurnOne, were not debating that.

Applied theories are better then observation because you see it and you know what its successful.

Also, please don't say that organics isn't organic without enough humus.

wikipedia:

In soil science, humus refers to any organic matter which has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain essentially as it is for centuries, if not millennia.

 

[BurnOne]

Maybe my last post didn't sound like I wanted it to. I'm not saying "It's MY way or NO way" at all. I'm saying "Save your money".
You've probably heard this story before... I had many very successful grows under my belt before I ever bought a pH pen. After I calibrated the meter @ 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0, I measured the pH of my guano teas (veg and flower) and my Pure Blend Pro while it was bubbleing in 5 gallon buckets. OH SHIT !!! My guano teas were high and getting higher every hour. And my PBP was low, very low. So, I had some Earth Juice shipped in via overnight expre$$. I adjusted my nute solutions. But I noticed that if I let the solutions bubble after I had adjusted the pH, they went back to where they were after a few hours. So, I adjusted again, and again and again. I also discovered that things like Maxicrop, Liquid Humus and Earth Juice would change the pH of my nute solutions.
Then it occured to me... My grows were very good for years before I got that damn pH pen. I also noticed that I couldn't tell any difference in my grows after I had adjusted the pH of my nutes. So, I set out to find out why.
With the help of Lavender Cowboy and other online sources, I learned about the buffering effects of humus. Now, I'm passing along what I've learned.
As far as growing outdoors, the soil out there has been buffering itself with humus for thousands of years.
I'm not trying to "push my wares" on anyone, just trying to help. Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm just old and grumpy.
Burn1

 

[texas grass]

in my experiences in a organic setting with compost tea and an orgnic soil with gh nutes.

when using the gh nutes when i didnt ph the plants had problems, but i wasnt organiclly feeding and was killing microbes. i got a ph meter and phed everything and plants got to lookin alittle better

when using compost tea with organic soil i have not phed and my plants are happier than before

i dont use anything to buffer the water or try to bring the ph down
i dont know ppm but its high(well water) and my ph is on average 7.6

under true organic senerio no ph is needed

b1 you said it correctly, you said use same exact settings except ph 1 and not the other. you, suby and afew others are my mentors on organics. thanks for all the info

 

[swampdank]

.
I'm not trying to "push my wares" on anyone, just trying to help. Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm just old and grumpy.
Burn1

not at all BurnOne. you presented the information i was seeking. that alone was worth sifting through the emotion.

folks get all touchy when it comes to this question.

i appreciate the replies. sometimes debate is the mother of invention.

 

[Mr Celsius]

Maybe my last post didn't sound like I wanted it to. I'm not saying "It's MY way or NO way" at all. I'm saying "Save your money".
You've probably heard this story before... I had many very successful grows under my belt before I ever bought a pH pen. After I calibrated the meter @ 4.0, 7.0 and 10.0, I measured the pH of my guano teas (veg and flower) and my Pure Blend Pro while it was bubbleing in 5 gallon buckets. OH SHIT !!! My guano teas were high and getting higher every hour. And my PBP was low, very low. So, I had some Earth Juice shipped in via overnight expre$$. I adjusted my nute solutions. But I noticed that if I let the solutions bubble after I had adjusted the pH, they went back to where they were after a few hours. So, I adjusted again, and again and again. I also discovered that things like Maxicrop, Liquid Humus and Earth Juice would change the pH of my nute solutions.
Then it occured to me... My grows were very good for years before I got that damn pH pen. I also noticed that I couldn't tell any difference in my grows after I had adjusted the pH of my nutes. So, I set out to find out why.
With the help of Lavender Cowboy and other online sources, I learned about the buffering effects of humus. Now, I'm passing along what I've learned.
As far as growing outdoors, the soil out there has been buffering itself with humus for thousands of years.
I'm not trying to "push my wares" on anyone, just trying to help. Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm just old and grumpy.
Burn1

No no, I'm sure my post came off a way that I didn't want as well. Were all a little old and grumpy

I do want to also thank you for helping so many people convert to organics with success.

Like I said before and Jay said as before, just smoke weed and if it works, it works. I do want people to be aware of ph and that it can be a problem for some. If you look at the MSM (which I have since written off), it is riddled with ph problems, so it is possible.

I assume all of us are fine here, so lets just leave it at that. If someones having issues, we will all gladly hand out advice.

 

[Mr Celsius]

not at all BurnOne. you presented the information i was seeking. that alone was worth sifting through the emotion.

folks get all touchy when it comes to this question.

i appreciate the replies. sometimes debate is the mother of invention.

The problem with these debates is that we all have anecdotal evidence that is contradicting... its bound to happen.

I hope we didn't turn you off from socialize with us, but we're all a little crazy Crazy

 

[DR HERBAL]

Swampdank if you do get a ph pen DONT get from ebay thats where i got my first one and it never worked once i personly think this is one bit of kit you should get from a good hydro store

 

[rckymtnthuglife]

Sorry DrHerbal- Note to self 4 pH meters left for sale on Ebay!

Seriously though, I've paid anywhere from $75 to $200 and have never had a pH meter that was reliable.

To each his own on this one. Hell if you grow organically my hats off to ya in the first place.

 

[Guest]

I don't know how many of you have studied soil science (at a college level)...

Look at rain, its 6.5

Wrong.

College level? Oh, fucking PaLEAsE.

National Deposition Program Average Rain pH for contiguous United States, Color .Gif

Who makes this map.

(because of atmospheric nitrogen).

Wrong. For the second time: in one sentence.

"Clean rain usually has a pH of 5.6. It is slightly acidic because of carbon dioxide which is naturally present in the atmosphere."

"Pure water (H2O) has a pH of 7, however, normal rain is acidic with a pH of about 5.6.1 This occurs because rain dissolves the ever-present carbon dioxide (~390 ppm) in the air to form carbonic acid (H2CO3). This is nature's way of helping break down soil into nutrients for use by vegetation."

"Normal" rainfall is slightly acidic because of the presence of dissolved carbonic acid. Carbonic acid is the same as that found in soda pop. The pH of "normal" rain has traditionally been given a value of 5.6.

"Most rainwater has a pH of 5.6 to 5.8, simply due to the presence of carbonic acid (H2CO3). The latter is formed from dissolved CO2 gas and H2O. The source of the CO2 is the atmosphere, which presently contains about 380 ppm CO2"

Nature, for the most part, deals with ph very well and has created a balance.

Wrong.
Nature is prolific in creation of pH-driven low biological-diversity zones where nothing lives that can't survive extreme pH conditions. The peat bogs of northern hemispheric tundras cover thousands of kilometers where biodiversity has been wiped out, with exception of a tiny fraction of living organisms that can stand the acidity. Alkali soils world wide limit species counts. The few places in the world where wide spectrum plant life is supported, simply because of ''nature's balance'' are in the minority compared to those, where it's not the case.
All that balance bullshit is utter bunk from a poser trying to pass as ''collidj edjakated GooRoo''.
Bet.

While Tom is not giving scientific facts, he is right.

Wrong.

Tom gave scientific facts; Mr Celsius wouldn't know science if it bitch slapped him. Which of course, it just did. First on one side of his bullshit 'science' then on the other.

If anybody wishes, after work, I'll go home and copy some text from my soil science book about ph and the mathematics behind it.

(Again: College level? Pa-fucking-LEAsE) If he'd warmed a chair in an agriculture class he'd know what a mineral salt is; three days ago he was advising this thread's author, ''potassium silicate isn't salt based, so it won't harm your micro-herd' when potassium silicate IS a mineral salt.

As though mineral salts ARE somehow intrinsically harmful to soil microbiology. They're not. Overdosing with them is. When they're not overdosed, in sub-commercial fertilization quantities - such as that used to change pH - micro-dosing -they're beneficial to them, and spur their growth. Which leads to another point: why does he think that because the word 'salt' has been connected to a compound, it's harmful? This is the BASICS of agricultural science.
Again: EPIC FAILURE to grasp the- literally -SIMPLEST of concepts surrounding nutrition in a soil, or soil microbiology. Proof positive he's never completed a class in agriculture.

Another, albeit incidental, bitch slap, up-side the old BULLSHIT flap- for Mr Celsius.

"Agricultural college science" student, or clueless, posing, bullshitter with a book he found in a garage sale? You decide.
3 days ago claiming potassium isn't a salt: I r collidj edjukatid Foram GooRoo

Post 30, this thread.

Here's what he said when he got caught red handed not knowing wtf he talks about
Agriculture... College? Really?

Fact is, he's a posing bullshitter has been going around ''advising'' when he doesn't know the pH of rain that would fall on his head if he farted, and it popped out of his ass.
It might be entertaining... but when someone's been around HERE for a year- AFTER ag. college- and still doesn't know

what a salt is;

the pH of rain:

that carbon dioxide is the pH lowering compound in rain;

that in nitric influenced, acid rain the pH is much lower than any 6.5: (he's said this before. It isn't a typo)

that synthetically processed minerals aren't intrinsically poisonous, it's the massive dosages administrated in common agricultural practice

It's time to call it: he's a dumbass who specializes in turbo posting bullshit.

 

[swampdank]

Swampdank if you do get a ph pen DONT get from ebay thats where i got my first one and it never worked once i personly think this is one bit of kit you should get from a good hydro store

thanks for the tip doc. i just found out that i can get a student discount from this catalog my turfgrass professor uses. the subject got brought up in class today and i kindly asked him to recommend a place in town, he tossed me this catalog with this look on his face like "i know what you got going on" LOL!
its cool though.

im going to pick one up regardless. i might not need to run and check the ph of my tea but it will be handy for other ventures.

as for this thread, it seems folks feel passionately about this subject. this is good. contraversyis the foundation of a good discussion.

i am happy that i can continue growing my nugs without fear of neglect. another point for organic methods. now is flush time (nothing but water and molasses) for the next three weeks and a new crop up to bat.

now, if we can all come to a concensus that this discussion, whether you are on one side of the other, was powerful.

please nobody hold feelings toward another, we are all working toward a common goal; stinky,potent herbal refreshments.

good night,
SD

 

[buggsuperstar]

Ok...

Ok...

So presuming that we all agree that PH is somewhat important, what is a better way to keep it in the most beneficial range other than using lime? I was planning on using it for my swamp grow but maybe not....?

 

[ixnay007]

Any source of calcium carbonate I guess, (though you might have to add a source of MG as well) something like ground egg or oyster shells, in fact all mollusc shells should be good, so whatever is most readily available.

 

[rckymtnthuglife]

Why do you need a way that's "better" than lime?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Look at Tom's situation, with each plant needing 115 gallons of medium... to do it to LC's recommendations would cost thousands and thousands of dollars.

Only if the person buying the soil is a complete doofus.

A yard would give you 17.39% more than you need for one plant. I wanted to be exact with the percentages what with you being a 'college boy' and all. Usually I would just have typed in something like "around 17%" but there you go.

Prices for potting soil, in bulk, delivered is $150.00 - $185.00 per yard assuming that you're buying less than 50 yards - then again, who knows what goes into a special soil costing 'tousands & thousands of dollars' eh? It's probably like 'top secret' or maybe even 'top secret crypto' or sumpin'

For 'thousands and thousands of dollars' I could use Alaska Humus (even the Denali Gold Humus brand) and have it brought in via air freight and have more than enough money to do Hawaii for a couple of weeks with a month stopover in Ensenada. Each way.

Great grow stories though! A soil mix costing 'thousands and thousands of dollars' - true, it must be a very, very special soil indeed! Probably better than the very soil that God used at the Garden of Eden. The bestest soil ever in the history of the human race! It's like the Garden of Weedin' and stuff!

This soil could possibly end worldwide hunger, AIDS, SIDS, midlife crises, yellow waxy build-up, distended rectum, inverted nipples, toe jam, acne, jock itch, post-nasal drip, dandruff, sickle-cell anemia, lupus, doofus, croup, gout and halitosis. It's probably like "Really Super-Duper Soil"

Again - great grow story.

Just a reminder: The difference between a 'fairy tale' and a 'grow story' is that the fairy tale begins with "Once upon a time....." and a grow story like this one would have to begin with "This is no sh*t...."

Thanks for sharing! And good to see that you're in college! Boola Boola! Hope your team makes it to state this year!

Wee!

CC

 

[swampdank]

Hope your team makes it to state this year!

Wee!

CC

two national championships last year!

 

[Clackamas Coot]

two national championships last year!

I'm not sure why but when I read that this song came to mind.

 

[buggsuperstar]

Why do you need a way that's "better" than lime?

From reading this thread I got the impression that some people, mostly TomHill, think that lime is salt based and that "simply throwing in lime and earth worm castings" isn't the best way to buffer your soils PH. I respect his opinion but if its true I want to know an alternative. Or possibly he was just saying that even with lime you still need to be monitoring your PH. But since he has been attacked quite hostily I don't know if he's going to return to this thread to answer this.

Bugg

 

[Dignan]

TH wasn't attacked. Or did I miss something? In fact, I felt quite a sting from a response he had to me and yet replied without attacking him in any way.

 

[Suby]

I agree I think TH was treated with respect as well

This is the internet, let`s not get emotional over pH, so far this IME is the smoothest running ph debate thread..well EVER..at least for this forum.

Changing the way a grower gardens is a difficult thing to do, we are all set in our ways..even the yougins such as myself.

Let`s face it when you have to wait 60-90 days to see the fruits of your labour it`s risky to play test lab with your grow op.

Maybe I`m culturally predisposed to argue AND be cool with someone afterwards, my friends and I spent 45min screaming at each other about the HABS the other night.
15 minutes later we are best peeps again, hugs and peace outs.



Growers are passionate, you have to be dedicated, flexible, quick on your toes, deceiptfull, smart, all these things and we have all had bad experiences from taking bad advice from "hydro prophets", "the cousin of a friend" or even worse "weed forum experts".

This being said if you've been burned by some advice and see it being proposed online your going to be pissed, your going to want to save the newb grower the headaches of your past misfortunes and as such I find any "anecdotal" information viable assuming it comes from the grower himself.

As with ANY other forum on the web like car forums, food forums, all forums there are attention whores, people who post to make themselves feel good and who parrot info they've perused and have not yet grasped (this IS NOT directed at anybody in this thread).

I cannot for the life of me understand why, I've toyed with deleting my account many times especially since my daughter is born.
Then some days I get PM's, I help someone out, they're excited and I'm feeling good because I remember being that person needing solid advice.

When I took on the job of moderator one thing worried me, the fact that I'm not a large op grower with a PHD and second I don't want anyone to take my word as gospel, less than 8 years ago I was buying my first HID and a pack a beans...

I have NEVER edited someones post and I have NEVER deleted someones posts because they disagree with me, I hate authority and abuses of it.



I don't know where all that came from..but here it is anyway.

Peace
S

 

[Vetus Fossor]

(puts arm around Suby's shoulder and offers a Life Saver) Feel better, Suby? lol