Organic Fanatic Collective

[guest2012y]

what do you need?

What he said.

Yes,just ask a question and a bunch of folks from scientists to average organic growers will surely be glad to help. Depending on what level you are at with this stuff people are generally willing to talk on that level so you understand it. More peeps need to lay down the chemicals and join the organic way of doing things. PEACE

 

[mad librettist]

yeah just ask!

I'll provide the ragging on other growers for your entertainment.

lol

 

[chemsteady]

perfect.

perfect.

ok, a little background.

i usually grow in coco in and outdoors, using a very basic gh formula based on the old lucas formula. a lot of folks refer to it as the h3ad/rez formula, me being one of those folks. my only amendment to this is a bit of bloom boost during budstack, and a touch of liquid karma (after having a large quantity fall into my hands) that i use intermittently throughout the life cycle of my plants. i usually grow in pots.

last season, i decided to use the VICS SUPER SOIL mix (abridged version) and was really impressed with the results. coco outdoors is quite a chore and i vowed to return to an (almost) all soil grow this season and to utilize the three raised planters i have below my patio deck.

these are the planters: before

and after (a lot of work)

i was planning on using this mix by tom hill, as i have a lot of faith in his work/judgement , for obvious reasons.

-tom hill-
I've played with a lot of different soil recipes over the years, 1rst year new soil mixes, as well as yearly additives. Here's a very simple mix that is well proven and I am comfortable recommending for those large outdoor containers. It gives about 50 cubic feet or just over 300 gallons (dry U.S), and fills a 6ft diameter container to a depth of about 18inches - perfectly.

25 bags black gold potting soil (1.5cf ea)

4 bags stutzman farms chicken manure (1 cf ea)

1 bag perlite (4 cf ea)

1 bag (50 lbs) bonemeal (steamed, not precipitated)

1/2 bag gypsum (aprox 1/2 cf)

Mix well, water thoroughly, let rest for 2-3 weeks minimum, transplant, and stand back.

now, some questions...

 

[chemsteady]

questions...

questions...

the planters are filled with a combination type soil (according to my friend, the "old grizzled gardener" who the landlords pay to maintain our yards) with the composition leaning heavily towards clay.

i believe he has/had been amending the topsoil with a simple, inexpensive organic bag soil by kellogs, which he used to grow taragon, fennel, mint, comfrey and other herbs and spices along with natural compost composed mostly of yard waste.

right, questions, questions...

-to begin, toms soil is/was predicated on filling these huge containers, mine obviously is not. how would i go about amending my soil with his mix? or, another way to ask that is, SHOULD i amend the soil with his mix (as a topsoil im assuming) or go a different route?

-the planters are almost filled, with approx 3-6 inches of space from the top of the planter to the base of the existing soil. do i till and mix the existing soil with toms mix, dig holes and fill with only toms mix, or both, or neither?

-how do i transpose toms mixture quantities to fit the needs of my planters? each planter is roughly 6 X 6, and keeping in mind ill need extra mixture to fill pots on my patio deck.

-that leads me to another question; how many plants per planter? how about the spacing? although id love to grow huge monsters, i dont want to scare the neighbors ( i was thinking good size plants, 4-5 ft). i know a large part of this is strain dependent, but some ballpark estimations would help greatly.

-also, if i want to achieve roughly the same size plants (a bit smaller even) on my patio deck in pots, and i wanted to avoid having to re-pot, what size containers would you (all) recommend using?

while preparing the plots, that entailed me spreading, tilling, and mixing in our huge compost heap of yard waste, again composed of leaves, grass clippings, my leftover coco, etc., i noticed that the earth was teaming with earthworms, salamanders, and other critters. "OGG" told me that this was a good sign, and his suggestion was confirmed, not two pages into this thread.

-will adding toms mix or any other, for that matter, disrupt the natural balance of my existing soil?

ok, i know i have a lot more questions to fire off, but ill stop there.

its quite obvious i have a lot of learning/reading to do, but i look forward to it. any advice you give will not be in vain, as i will take (very seriously) into consideration all of the input given and discern how best to put it into practice in my garden. i will document every step of this process, so that others might learn and utilize the information as well.

thanks for your time...back to page 25 in the thread for me

peace
~c

 

[jaykush]

-to begin, toms soil is/was predicated on filling these huge containers, mine obviously is not. how would i go about amending my soil with his mix? or, another way to ask that is, SHOULD i amend the soil with his mix (as a topsoil im assuming) or go a different route?

you need to concentrate on amending the soil you have, rather than buying and hauling in soil.

-the planters are almost filled, with approx 3-6 inches of space from the top of the planter to the base of the existing soil. do i till and mix the existing soil with toms mix, dig holes and fill with only toms mix, or both, or neither?

like i said above. add the amendments. skip the buying soil part. one thing you can add is lots of compost. along with the fertilizer amendments of course.

-how do i transpose toms mixture quantities to fit the needs of my planters? each planter is roughly 6 X 6, and keeping in mind ill need extra mixture to fill pots on my patio deck.

your going to have to judge this from the amendments themselves. if anything you want to go light, because you can always top dress with more or make a tea of some sort. if you add too much you will burn your plants and be out of wack for a season.

-that leads me to another question; how many plants per planter? how about the spacing? although id love to grow huge monsters, i dont want to scare the neighbors ( i was thinking good size plants, 4-5 ft). i know a large part of this is strain dependent, but some ballpark estimations would help greatly.

this depends on how soon you plant, and how big you want them. the more plants the later the planting date, the bigger the plants the earlier. judging from the pics i would do one decent sized plant per bed and train and prune them to keep the size you want.

-also, if i want to achieve roughly the same size plants (a bit smaller even) on my patio deck in pots, and i wanted to avoid having to re-pot, what size containers would you (all) recommend using?

bigger the better and dont plant too early. you could even do it in 5 gallon buckets if you wanted. but more will increase yield.

while preparing the plots, that entailed me spreading, tilling, and mixing in our huge compost heap of yard waste, again composed of leaves, grass clippings, my leftover coco, etc., i noticed that the earth was teaming with earthworms, salamanders, and other critters. "OGG" told me that this was a good sign, and his suggestion was confirmed, not two pages into this thread.

if you have finished compost that is that full of life, by all means add it to your soil. and if your growin in the pots, use the compost to base your soil mix on so you dont have to buy some.

-will adding toms mix or any other, for that matter, disrupt the natural balance of my existing soil?

only if you add unholy amounts. as always in organics, keep it simple, and less is more. and like he suggests. let it rest before planting. few weeks minimum, a month or more is best.

hope that helps

 

[chemsteady]

jaykush...

jaykush...

thanks for the advice, man.

so, i guess my concern is with the composition of my existing soil. like i mentioned, its predominately clay, although there seems to be a good amount of what would appear to be a loam based soil, it does seem rather thick and doesnt drain easily.

OGG explained that this was actually a good thing when i asked about it. he said that the clay would help to keep the amendments from leaching out of the soil, hold more water, and keep warmth in the rootzone.

on the other hand, it seems as though roots would have a difficult time making their way through this dirt. i asked about pre-digging holes, whats your opinion on that? waste of time?

on amendments-im not exactly sure how to go about adding amendments, without some quantitative measure of sorts. i dont want to haphazardly add bonemeal and chicken shit to my existing soil hoping that im doing it in the right fashion, you know? do ratios exist that people use as a standard?

the compost pile that i had going, has already been dispersed among the three planters, mixed into the soil and rainwater has soaked the soil up good recently. i still have piles of old leaves and the like around the yard, and was tempted to throw all that on top of my planters, but because of conflicting information in this forum have been hesitant to do so.

jay, if these were your planters, how would you amend the soil? i also want to keep it simple, saving the teas and whatnot until the plants need them. im knee deep in tea knowledge as we speak...

on plant numbers-im prop 215 legal, so im sticking to my 20 outdoor plant limit. that said, i would much rather have a good number of those plants in the ground, as nature intended, than inside a pot. one plant in a 6x6 planter may seem like the way to go, but idk, i kinda like a variety, and will probably do more plants, a little later, so i can go with numbers and variety.

again, thanks for taking the time to lend a hand, jay k.

peace.

~c

 

[mad librettist]

I'm not Jay, but he turned me on to this book "weeds, guardians of the soil". I would use weeds to bust up that soil, or if not that, some root crops and at least some clover. I'm still reading about it, never done this. But in your shoes I would be trying.

Get a sample of your soil that includes as many layers as you can. Maybe use a length of pipe to get it. Drop it in a jar, add water, and shake. Come back in a day. You will clearly see how much sand, silt, and clay are in your soil, as distinct layers.

 

[jaykush]

so, i guess my concern is with the composition of my existing soil. like i mentioned, its predominately clay, although there seems to be a good amount of what would appear to be a loam based soil, it does seem rather thick and doesnt drain easily.

theres nothing wrong with clay soil, i garden in it daily. sometimes it just needs a little work to get it to a good place. if it doesnt drain well, then there's your answer...add drainage.

OGG explained that this was actually a good thing when i asked about it. he said that the clay would help to keep the amendments from leaching out of the soil, hold more water, and keep warmth in the rootzone.

that is true, clay soils have whats called higher CEC( cation exchange capacity) there should be a link early in this thread describing it in full. sandy soils have a low CEC which doesn't hold nutrients as much. CEC is basically how soils hold nutrients instead of them leeching away. in the very basic form, think of them as magnets, and they attract the minerals and nutrient ions to them, then the biology or the plant trades another ion or nutrient or mineral to replace it. and takes what it needs to grow.

on the other hand, it seems as though roots would have a difficult time making their way through this dirt. i asked about pre-digging holes, whats your opinion on that? waste of time?

pre digging holes is a lot of work. im too lazy for that. if you use nature to work on your side you dont need to dig big ass holes. youll be surprised what roots can grow through, even though there delicate they are not weak by any means.

on amendments-im not exactly sure how to go about adding amendments, without some quantitative measure of sorts. i dont want to haphazardly add bonemeal and chicken shit to my existing soil hoping that im doing it in the right fashion, you know? do ratios exist that people use as a standard?

i havent used commercial amendments in years, follow the instructions they have on them.

the compost pile that i had going, has already been dispersed among the three planters, mixed into the soil and rainwater has soaked the soil up good recently. i still have piles of old leaves and the like around the yard, and was tempted to throw all that on top of my planters, but because of conflicting information in this forum have been hesitant to do so.

ok thats good as far as the compost goes. i suggest if you can to start another pile so you can have some more stocked soon. as for the leaves, leave them off until it starts warming up. then you can use them as mulch and keep the soil cool and moist in the summer heat. as well as stimulate the soil biology with fresh organic matter.

jay, if these were your planters, how would you amend the soil? i also want to keep it simple, saving the teas and whatnot until the plants need them. im knee deep in tea knowledge as we speak...

if these were my planters i would amend them with things no one can buy, so forget about what i would do personally. first find what you can get cheap or free, then go from there on how much to amend. and as always if you didnt add enough, teas are more than simple to make for an additional supplement and cheap to make. or you can just simply top dress with fertilizers and water them in( guano for example).

on plant numbers-im prop 215 legal, so im sticking to my 20 outdoor plant limit. that said, i would much rather have a good number of those plants in the ground, as nature intended, than inside a pot. one plant in a 6x6 planter may seem like the way to go, but idk, i kinda like a variety, and will probably do more plants, a little later, so i can go with numbers and variety.

like i said thats up to you. i personally would just do a few big ass plants because they would yield all i would need until next season. numbers dont mean much to me, its all about yield and having enough smoke until next year. if you simply want more diverse genetics, plant later for smaller plants. here for example that would be mid to late may. but i dont know your season or where you live.

 

[mad librettist]

like i said thats up to you. i personally would just do a few big ass plants because they would yield all i would need until next season. numbers dont mean much to me, its all about yield and having enough smoke until next year. if you simply want more diverse genetics, plant later for smaller plants. here for example that would be mid to late may. but i dont know your season or where you live.

man, do both! Maybe 2 big ones beds, and one square-foot type. Then you know what you like next year.

 

[chemsteady]

alright then...

alright then...

again, thanks for the help jay k.

i hear you mad lib, im probably going to do some kind of middle ground version of what youre suggesting. i plan on using one whole planter strictly for veggies/herbs/spices, and the other two for, er, medicinal herbs, hehe

so, you said to use what i have around for free right? well, heres a list of things that my old buddy "hydro grower" gave me once he closed up shop. like i said, i simply use gh in a two part fashion, and a little liquid karma (part of the hydro guy off load) so this stuff has just been sitting inside rubbermaid bins in my basement.

-1 gal liquid karma
-1 gal budswel liquid guano 0.01-0.10-0.01
-1 gal of sweet leaf (ingredients suggest that its molasses +)
-1 gal of fox farm tiger bloom 2-8-4
- gal of sensi cal/mag bloom

and a shit ton of sensi grow and bloom. judging by the looks of these two, however, they arent organic. the cal mag probably isnt either.

additionally, i have the following leftover from my vic highs super soil mix.

-1 pound box of blood meal
-1 pound box of kelp meal


i seems as though you might be suggesting to add nothing but my composted materials to the plots, until the plants let me know otherwise...would i be correct in that assumption?

let me put it another way; i have no clue what the nutrient composition of my soil is, but based on observational data (what i can see), plants of all sorts, readily grow in it. when tilled through, there is an abundance of living creatures, huge (im talking the size of a small sharpie) earthworms, salamanders, etc. if i were to amend the soil (do i even need to?) youre saying to do it at a little less than recommended? thats still kind of abstract for me, but i can understand considering you no longer use soil amendments.

so, lets say jay, that you did use soil amendments. i know you no longer do, but just for arguments sake, lets say you did (you did a long time ago, right? ) what would you consider crucial and or necessary to add?

im in northern california, water out the tap is neutral, 7.0, the plots get day light all day long, and have built in irrigation with scheduled timing available. our last frost usually hits by the 21st of feb btw.

if anyone else wants to chime in, feel free to do so, as i dont want to nag jay to death.

thanks organic gurus

~c

 

[chemsteady]

good garbage on my mind...

good garbage on my mind...

also...

as far as starting a new compost pile, i was a step ahead of you my brother. took a break from this thread last night, ventured into burn1s organic library and poured through the compost thread, shit thread, molasses thread, and a few others.

i had compost on the mind when i woke up at 8 and proceeded to gather a huge pile of leaves (mostly brown), old soil mixes that had gathered here and there, and green bin recycling material.

i actually went through a few of the neighbors (in nor cal, most neighborhoods have green recycling for yard waste, food scraps, etc) bins and collected eggshells, whole grain breads, veggies, fruits, green leaves and the like. i rinsed with a little rainwater i had collecting and proceeded to chop the hell out of the green material, added it to my browning leaves, old soil, etc. i turned my pile lightly (all this was done in the middle plot btw) and sprinkled with rainwater.

ill probably go around to grab some leftover coffee grounds, as the bay are is host to about a billion shops more than happy to give a hippie some good vibes and some leftover grounds, hehehe

peace brothers (and sistahs'!)

~chem

 

[mad librettist]

have you considered combining things instead of monoculture? No reason you can't grow basil and weed in the same bed. Carrots too, maybe those little french ones. Daikon radish is super easy to grow and will go right through that clay if i'm not mistaken.

Monoculture is always more susceptible to pest damage.

 

[chemsteady]

my man...

my man...

mad lib, i hadnt considered that until you mentioned it just now.

you see, these are the things id really like to know about! i think that sounds like a great idea.

i suppose i just was unsure about the plants roots competing for resources...

when i mentioned to OGG about wanting to plant potatoes, he advised against it, saying that the root system in that (potato) plant is vast and would no doubt effect surrounding plants ability to to flourish.

thanks for that quick tidbit, mad lib!

~chem

 

[mad librettist]

when i mentioned to OGG about wanting to plant potatoes, he advised against it, saying that the root system in that (potato) plant is vast and would no doubt effect surrounding plants ability to to flourish.

I've never heard of that. I've certainly had other plants grow with nightshades, but not cannabis. My guess is that it would be totally fine to grow potatoes. Root systems are not forcefields that prevent all other roots. They sometimes attack each other, but more often I think they follow each other and become intermingled. Ever seen monoculture in nature? Nope. Is everything crowded? Yup. So where are all the roots?

this book will blow your mind. Jay gave me the link.

One thing I have been reading about is that when there is nowhere to go downward, then plants that get along normally will compete.

There are companion planting charts, but they have a high bullshit to info ratio. Down in Cali, I think you are ready to go with a cover crop like alfalfa (just a guess, not sure if it is fast enough). Let it grow, and when you are ready to plant just mow it down and use it for mulch or compost it (leave the roots in the soil). Up here, I have been using winter rye. But there are tons of options. I get my gear from johnny's selected seeds up in maine but I'm sure you have closer options.

 

[jaykush]

i hear you mad lib, im probably going to do some kind of middle ground version of what youre suggesting. i plan on using one whole planter strictly for veggies/herbs/spices, and the other two for, er, medicinal herbs, hehe

im with madlib, i companion plant herbs all the time with my cannabis. chamomile is a great friend and you get medicinal tea out of it for yourself. there are many more as well depending on the system you choose( i.e trees, sog, bushes, etc...)

so, you said to use what i have around for free right? well, heres a list of things that my old buddy "hydro grower" gave me once he closed up shop. like i said, i simply use gh in a two part fashion, and a little liquid karma (part of the hydro guy off load) so this stuff has just been sitting inside rubbermaid bins in my basement.

-1 gal liquid karma
-1 gal budswel liquid guano 0.01-0.10-0.01
-1 gal of sweet leaf (ingredients suggest that its molasses +)
-1 gal of fox farm tiger bloom 2-8-4
- gal of sensi cal/mag bloom

and a shit ton of sensi grow and bloom. judging by the looks of these two, however, they arent organic. the cal mag probably isnt either.

not too sure on those products, im sure others have more experience with them. i avoid buying fertilizers personally.

additionally, i have the following leftover from my vic highs super soil mix.

-1 pound box of blood meal
-1 pound box of kelp meal

the blood meal can be amended as well as the kelp. you can also make a liquid soak out of the kelp meal. or simply just top dress them in every now and then and water in. theres always more than one way to do things with organics, its just a matter of how you want to do it.

i seems as though you might be suggesting to add nothing but my composted materials to the plots, until the plants let me know otherwise...would i be correct in that assumption?

that's one way of doing it. which would be the most simple imo. but not the only way.

let me put it another way; i have no clue what the nutrient composition of my soil is, but based on observational data (what i can see), plants of all sorts, readily grow in it. when tilled through, there is an abundance of living creatures, huge (im talking the size of a small sharpie) earthworms, salamanders, etc. if i were to amend the soil (do i even need to?) youre saying to do it at a little less than recommended? thats still kind of abstract for me, but i can understand considering you no longer use soil amendments.

well the fertilizer/amendment should have at least the very basic instructions on it. or you shouldn't be buying it really. soil is very forgiving with exact amounts, you dont need to be precise to get good results. each amendment goes on at a different rate i cant just give you a one for all ratio, it doesn't work that way.

so, lets say jay, that you did use soil amendments. i know you no longer do, but just for arguments sake, lets say you did (you did a long time ago, right? ) what would you consider crucial and or necessary to add?

oh i use amendments, i just meant i use ones that you cant buy( i make them myself) i used to use guanos back years ago and i would simply top dress the guano periodically when the plant needed it. and just use water. what i would consider crucial would be dependent on the site. some soil will need more organic matter. some will need more drainage, some will be lacking in minerals.

if anyone else wants to chime in, feel free to do so, as i dont want to nag jay to death

no worries

as far as starting a new compost pile, i was a step ahead of you my brother. took a break from this thread last night, ventured into burn1s organic library and poured through the compost thread, shit thread, molasses thread, and a few others.

i had compost on the mind when i woke up at 8 and proceeded to gather a huge pile of leaves (mostly brown), old soil mixes that had gathered here and there, and green bin recycling material.

i actually went through a few of the neighbors (in nor cal, most neighborhoods have green recycling for yard waste, food scraps, etc) bins and collected eggshells, whole grain breads, veggies, fruits, green leaves and the like. i rinsed with a little rainwater i had collecting and proceeded to chop the hell out of the green material, added it to my browning leaves, old soil, etc. i turned my pile lightly (all this was done in the middle plot btw) and sprinkled with rainwater.

ill probably go around to grab some leftover coffee grounds, as the bay are is host to about a billion shops more than happy to give a hippie some good vibes and some leftover grounds, hehehe

be careful of adding too much raw organic matter to the plots soon before planting. its not the best situation. ideally you would let the soil rest and "balance" out before planting anything. i amend my soil in the fall and let it sit all winter and most of spring before planting. i suggest a dedicated compost area so you can continue to make it as your plants grow. then by fall you have a surplus of compost to amend for next year. over time thats ALL you will have to do, after a few years you can even stop tilling, just add fresh compost on top and plant into that.

 

[chemsteady]

gotcha...

gotcha...

jay, mad lib, thanks again for taking the time to lend a new organic gardener a hand...proving once again, what a valuable asset ICMAG has been for me.

im gonna get started planting that cover crop, alfalfa most likely, and will probably get the veggies and plants going mid april, beginning of may.

ill look to amend the soil as necessary, probably do a bit more research and work on developing some teas should my plants need it.

i was wondering, i know you dont really know jay, but maybe others including mad lib might, if there were some way to use those organic nutes that i have? that budswel looks to be a pretty decent guano, and sweetleaf looks a lot like molasses to me.

any input yall have would be greatly appreciated. thanks again gurus

~c

 

[jaykush]

the only one i have experience with is the fox farm. was gifted a few bottles some time ago. imo it grows pretty nugs, but they are nugs that lack character( aka potency and taste)

also you better get that cover crop in asap if you want it ready by april.

oh yea and start a wormbin if you can, best stuff for compost tea hands down.

 

[mad librettist]

sorry man, I've never used any of those products. But I will second jay's worm bin comment. Best thing you can do. Also a very interesting pet. Let me know if you are interested.

You should check out all the approaches too. I just have my one way of seeing the world. But Clackamas Coot, 2ndtry, and some others (people who clash with me) have a slightly different way that may be helpful to you as you get started. Check out as many different takes on living with soil as you can.

I must say, I really envy your legal status and your growing season.

 

[Johnny Bud]

Hey guys not trying to sound stupid or anything, just need to tie up a few issues i have in my head, here goes:

if i use canna's organic nutrients dissolved at about 3-4ml per liter, do i really need to use any teas or soil addatives or guanos, if so what is missing.

if we have teas nutes, why create these special or super mixes,

also can i use an aquarium chlorine destroying chemical that i use to prep the water for a fish tank, to prep my water before making teas and feeds

cheers

 

[jaykush]

if we have teas nutes, why create these special or super mixes,

because there is more than one way to do things. you can either use teas or you can amend your soil, or both. its all about what works best for you.

also can i use an aquarium chlorine destroying chemical that i use to prep the water for a fish tank, to prep my water before making teas and feeds

just let it sit out for a day, simple as that. or just leave it in the sun for an hour or so( sun evaporates chlorine, that why you have to keep adding it to your pool or algae will take hold)