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Organic Fanatic Collective

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
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Wow so much info to digest :yes:

Excellent link Smurf for the NTS range :D Just talked to them on the phone and were very helpful. Think i'll be getting their Humic, Fulvic acid and Nutri-life 4/20!

The lady on the phone told me they have run tests using compost vs their microbial stimulant (nutri-life 4/20) in teas. The results showed that lots of unwanted pathogens and unhelpful microbes were also increased using the compost. Using the 4/20 the results were much better... they dont have it documented but hopefully will do soon.

@Bongsong - Excellent posts. When you say limestone is it just the plain white rock in dust form? Is this used only to clear up the solution for use in hydro type setups?

:smoweed:
 

Smurf

stoke this joint
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Boy I love that link jaykush! - The Science and Engineering of Composting

Yeah they're a real nice bunch of people SS, I've slowly been working my way thru their range of stuff, blows me away what's available,,,, I normally purchase thru a place that is like a co-op run by bio organic farmers,,, they keep giving me free samples of diff stuff to try out, without a word of a lie I always walk out with something diff to try each time I visit. And they're not tight asses either, its always a litre or so of something new,,,,,, anyway, if you can afford the difference buy the 5 litre containers of the fulvic & humic acid - roughly $35 a pop. I recently scored 20 litres of the NTS liquid Humus for $30. Yeah thats right!! They stuffed up my order of a measly $30 (sold mine to someone else) so they basically gave me 20 litres of humic acid in exchange. Needless to say I'm a NTS convert,,, tho I'm probably more of a whore. :biglaugh:
 

Smurf

stoke this joint
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This is what I was rambling about BongSong

after 36 hours


then the next morning it has conveniently built up on the sides
beautiful & soft to the touch & it dissolves instantly when swept back in.
(its like a black silk sponge)

 
G

Guest

That's the stuff smurf. Put that in your grow you'll be amazed.

Silver Surfer - The small 1 inch stones (whitechip) used for landscaping. A handful of these, i'll go over this again as the results are incredible, bean leaves twice the size, nasturtium cropping every couple of days, peppers from last year regrouping, and the weed, oh, seedling that's now 18 inches height with 16 sub branches... and the munted seedling that never grew, just grew!

I'm considering a mineral tea thread but have been neglecting companions and aqua for a while so time will tell if I do. Life has been very full lately, very enjoyable though I do miss the research at times.

OK, the theory behind this. I was looking into humis and discovered other stuff on the way.

Carbolic acid reacts with phosphate creating Adenosine Tri Phosphate.

ATP is the energy source for many things. Photosynthesis, cell division, etc... Think of your growroom as a building site, all the bacteria lights nutes enzymes etc are the workers with power tools, and ATP is the mains power supply.

Note: I'm off to get ripped so bear with me, I want you guys to share this info and understand (though my understanding is limited) why I've pursued this direction, so you too may benefit from what I believe is a turbo charge to your grow. I need to get stoned as I was stoned during all the research however my notes may get disjointed. Anyone want to question, debate, add to, take from, please do, I love the discussions we have here.

Ahhhh, back. That weeds killer, only took 4th in local cup but it was crash-dried on a light for that...

I guess I'll go back over what I did and why.

I heard that humus is the magic soil ingredient that organic gardeners want. I heard you cannot make this. The word cannot, or even abbreviated as can't, has never sat well with me...

So, I found out what humus is made of. Fulvic acid, humic acid, and humins.

Next I had to find these 3 parts, and try to coax them together. I don't know that I've done this at all, but the results are certainly pleasing.

Sources of fulvic acid and humic acid were easy. Grow shops. I didn't bother to buy the humic acid however, as my aquarium water (well established planted aquarium or aquaponic system) has plenty of humic acid, and I suspect fulvic acid but have yet to confirm this. So I bought some fulvic acid to be sure. I think it is important we the collective find a natural source of fulvic acid as well.

Humins are found in peat (no additives peat!), and are not soluble. Of course, peat is barely soluble itself and so growers have devised a teabag and bubbler method for seeping peat, in my basic understanding, to utilise the pH down attributes it has.

The peat, aquarium water (humic acid), and fulvic acid are my building blocks.

Add to this

Molasses, benificial bacteria and root matter (m & s fungi). I had bacteria in the fish water. The molasses is to feed the bacteria and add micro nutrients but more importantly in this instance, it is to help chelate the peat. The root matter is to add fungal spores. The bacteria and fungi are not really part of the equation here, but I'll try to get it all in one tea, if I can, to save time and simplify the operation.

Chelate the peat? See smurfs photo's above.

As humins are not able to be dissolved (in an alkaline solution) I start the process of seperation using a chelate - molasses. I want to dissolve all the black tannins etc in the tea leaving only the fine humins after. The pH is acidic from the peat, the water is very black but clean and healthy smelling, we want this to be alkaline to clarify the tea, but not yet.

The other half of the equation, phosphate, is not added till the peat has had time to steep. 2 days seems adequate.

At 2 days everything is clean and sweet smelling so I know the bacterial portion is still alive and well (if they die your nose will know). I then add a handful of whitechip/limestone so it covers the bubbler stone.

Another 2 days brewing with the whitechip (4 days total) and everything goes clear. The whitechip has actually been cracked by the acids in the tea and you'll find bits of sand/grit from it.

Surprisingly, the tea did not need to reach alkaline pH to clarify. A pH of 6.7-6.8 is reached and it clarifies.

For soil I'd get all the mixture (removing whitechip) shake it up, and water it in.

For my Aqua I siphoned off the clear stuff and added it to the system, and got the silt and put it in a bed. The system went cloudy, clear the next day.

The addition of your favourite nute brew to this set-up should be fine. Go very light on nitrogen, the phosphate provides plenty.

To simplify the addition of this to a tea regime I'd brew tea as per the usual recipe, including peat in a teabag, fulvic and humic acids, then do the additional 2 days with whitechip.

It caused a massive growth spurt lasting 3-4 days and everything's still growing better over a fortnight later. I'd say the regular watering in, weekly perhaps, of this type of tea could see many organic growers increase their yield considerably.

Now, sourcing the fulvic acid. Cheap!

The rest costs next to nothing if sourced correctly. One bag of whitechip is a lifetime supply. A handful taken off someone's garden (then bleached clean) would never be missed and last a fair while. Molasses is cattle fodder. Aquarium water can be obtained from... aquariums. root mass is dug out of ground.

Oh yes, my proportions.

5 gallons aquarium water
100 mls fulvic acid
2 gallons peat
tablespoon molasses
handful whitechip.

Other additives are additives, as you wish.

I also think a permanent tea, that you just add to, would simplify things further, but it has risks with aging, so am not pursuing that further at present.
 

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
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Veteran
BongSong said:
The addition of your favourite nute brew to this set-up should be fine. Go very light on nitrogen, the phosphate provides plenty.

Awsome thanks BongSong!

Just trying to figure out where the phospate comes from? :chin:
 

ThaiPhoon

Active member
Hi BongSong, Do you think that coco could be used as a substitute for peat? In my location it's very hard to find peat. If not coco, what else might be used? Thanks!
 
G

Guest

Phosphate - hehe - ok, limestone is the buildup of millions of planktonic critters...

"On a microscopic scale, in the groundmass of the limestone, phosphate minerals are present as fillings and secondarily as replacements of foraminiferal and other calcareous microfossil tests"

Where's it come from? Hard question! - "In deposits, phosphogenesis is mainly promoted by the decay of organic substances derived from diatoms, fishes and other vertebrates, leaves and trunks, and faecal pellets in a highly reducing environment on or just below the sea or lake bottom, and secondarily by the feeding of the basin with phosphate-bearing nutrients that originated in the land"

Sorry I can't help about coco I don't know the medium. Peat contains humins and lowers pH which is why I chose it.
 

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Thanks for explaining Bongsong.

Now your answer leads me to more Q's :D

The phosphate from the limestone is different from the phosphorous we get from say bat guano that is essential for flowering?

Therefore would the limestone be good for a flowering tea or just use less??

:smoweed:
 

swampdank

Pull my finger
Veteran
that is a killer link jay. i will tell you what. i changed my major this week to environmental horticulture/ organic crop production and you guys are going to be a priceless tutor for me. please keep in touch as i have two more years left and its all the fun stuff now. who knows maybe i will learn a little something to add to everybodies knowledge.
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
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Veteran
very nice swampdank, i was going to take that at one time. then i thought to myself how much im not a school person and could learn it on my own. at least well have a certified technical person we can turn to in due time :joint: mix some science style and some stoner style see what we get.
 
G

Guest

Arghh More questions, head hurts....

Tee Hee.

I think the mineral tea will definately have sufficient nitrogen but couldn't say on the phosphate percentage, I think it would vary from region to region too.

But.... With the inclusion of all 3 ingredients of humus, I'm guessing it's so stable for your plants it'd be hard to burn them regardless, just make sure the molasses is in there to chelate it.
 
B

BeAn



Hey organic fanatics, hope your all well..:wave:

This tea has been brewing for a couple of days, it contains a sock full of:
  • Bat Poop
  • Used Coffee grounds
  • BioBizz Pre-Mix(shroom compost n stuff)
  • EarthJuice Catalyst(in with the water)
  • Tricoderma funghi powder

Also i threw in some raw cane sugar after the initial froth went down, is this a good recipe for the stretch???:smile:

Jah bless.. :rasta:
 
Last edited:

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
That sounds like the makings of a nicely balanced bacteria/fungal tea, it will be good for the stretch because you skipped using liquid kelp which is full of natural growth hormone.
Save that for immediately after the stretch, the compost will cover thing on the micronutrient level to feed the culture.

S
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
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well today is a nice surprise. in the recent weeks i have been making some lacto bacillus cultures from info early on in the thread and also recently posted in the bio-cultivator thread. here is the read for anyone new to it

Here’s a simple method of collecting this type of microorganism. Lactic acid bacteria can be collected from the air. Pour rice wash (solution generated when you wash the rice with water) on a container like plastic pot with lid. Allow air gap at least 50-75% of the container. The key here is the air space. Cover the (not vacuum tight, allowing air still to move into the container) container with lid loosely. Put the container in a quiet area with no direct sunlight. Allow the rice was to ferment for at least 5-7 days. Lactic acid bacteria will gather in 5-7 days when temperature is 20-25 degrees C. Rice bran will be separated and float in the liquid, like a thin film, smelling sour. Strain and simply get the liquid. Put this liquid in a bigger container and pour ten parts milk. The original liquid has been infected with different type of microbes including lacto bacilli. And in order to get the pure lacto bacilli, saturation of milk will eliminate the other microorganisms and the pure lacto bacilli will be left. You may use skim or powdered milk, although fresh milk is best. In 5-7 days, carbohydrate, protein and fat will float leaving yellow liquid (serum), which contain the lactic acid bacteria. You can dispose the coagulated carbohydrate, protein and fat, add them to your compost pile or feed them to your animals. The pure lactic acid bacteria serum can be stored in the refrigerator or simply add equal amount of crude sugar (dilute with 1/3 water) or molasses. Do not use refined sugar as they are chemically bleached and may affect the lactic acid bacteria. The sugar or molasses will keep the lactic acid bacteria alive at room temperature. One to one ratio is suggested although sugar, regardless of quantity is meant simply, serving as food for the bacteria to keep them alive. Now, these lactic acid bacteria serum with sugar or molasses will be your pure culture. To use, you can dilute this pure culture with 20 parts water. Make sure water is not chemically treated with, like chlorine. Remember, we are dealing with live microorganisms and chlorine can kill them. This diluted form 1:20 ratio will be your basic lactic acid bacteria concoction. Two to four tablespoons added to water of one gallon can be used as your basic spray and can be added to water and feeds of animals. For bigger animals, the 2-4 tablespoons of this diluted lactic acid bacteria serum should be used without diluting it further with water. Lactic acid bacteria serum can be applied to plant leaves to fortify phyllosphere microbes, to soil and compost. Of course, it will help improve digestion and nutrient assimilation for animals and other applications mentioned before. For any kind of imbalance, be it in the soil or digestive system, lacto bacilli can be of help.

im about 3/4 of the way through it heres what i have so far.

first day, rice wash liquid, 50% air left to set 7 days.
5915IMG_0574-med.jpg


then next we have it 7 days later, it has a slight film on the top and what looks like small fungi cultures growing on the edges. you can see the yellow stuff.
5915IMG_0673-med.jpg


then we dilute 1/10 rice wash with microbes/milk. i used 2 tablespoons rice wash and 20 tablespoons milk. would have made more but this stoner wanted his cereal and didn't want to go buy more.
5915IMG_0672-med.jpg


then we let that sit for 7 days in a place with no sunlight and as little light possible i put it in a spare closet that i left cracked open. after about 5 days we are here. still got two days to go before i do the next step so i will update this when i do it.
5915IMG_0749-med.jpg


so see you soon with the final steps.

i will be using this along with my compost activator to speed things up even more hopefully. but im sure plants will love it ill be trying various plants to see how they react.
 

Smurf

stoke this joint
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You gotta appreciate the time & effort everyone here goes to when it comes to experimentation !!,,,, I love what you guys are up to!

There are so many things I have to do in the new year, but only for time restraints, its gonna have to wait until then.

Here's a little something I've been playing with, but it's more of a slack stoner not getting his shit together, by that I mean not finding a larger pot for this project!

Not sure if you guys can remember this pile of potting mix I made up a year ago, but I only got around to using roughly 75% of it.



Since then another season has passed and I've grown the odd plant or two, with one exception,,,, this being a male plant that I didn't want to cull, but I also didn't need any extra pollen,,,, so I replanted him (a 4" pot) into what was left of that soil mix (above), and attempted to prune him back,, without prolonging the flower set, but enough to shock him into a state of sex reversal.



So far so good. No staminate flowers,,,,, he's a she,,,, as of this week the first pistils are showing. She's just over 5 1/2 ft tall now (from slab)



Here you can see the original main stem (the dehydrated stem in front of the main trunk) That trunk growing now use to be a side branch.



as this is only the 3rd time I've done this (the 1st was by accident) we'll see what it produces in the coming months.
almost forgot to say that all this is happening on a slab of cement/concrete.

happy gardening ofc.
 

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
You guys are awesome. :cool:
I love the way the members of this forum go about learning organics and the amount of fun that comes with the territory.
Everyone puts in their findings and tries them out, it's a real spirit of sharing. :joint:

S
 

Suby

**AWD** Aficianado
Veteran
So Smurf, I have never heard of turning a male to a female, I'm sure it's because I'm dense or something but WTF .
You have to go over the details of that, I am intrigued to say the least.

JayK That looks like a fun experiment, have you tried them out yet on some girls?

Lactic acid bacteria serum can be applied to plant leaves to fortify phyllosphere microbes

I want to know about the benefits, I'll check that out.:rasta:

S
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
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niiiiiiice smurf, i hate seeing massive outdoor plants. makes me want one soooo bad. but in due time. that looks like a hell of a sativa.

suby, lots of benefits from this stuff, its going in my compost activator. should help speed things up and make the quality better. used for plants as a foliar as you have read and also in the soil, another benefit i just thaught of yesterday is fish emulsions. companys use lacto bacillius t oget rid of waste smells. like human waste/sewage/nasty smells. and at the same time it breaks down those smells into smaller particles. now heres the good part. it will keep the smell down from the fish emulsions and also help speed things up and add quality. the list goes on im still learning about it. plus is sooooooooo easy to make cost me about 10-25 cents to make so far. rice wash from my dinner, and some milk cheap as hell.
 

jaykush

dirty black hands
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Veteran
some info for the more advanced organic heads.

Let the soil work for us
Elliott, E. T. and Coleman, D. C.

covers
-Management of microbial populations
-Structural controls of soil processes
-Soil aggregation and organic matter turnover
-Soil pore space and organism activity
-Macroporosity and preferential flow
-approach for agroecosystem management

http://www.certifiedorganic.bc.ca/rcbtoa/training/soil-article.html
 

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